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Changing the way turning works |
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
|  Posted: 2010-10-05 22:25
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On 2010-10-05 21:48, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
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On 2010-10-05 21:11, Sardaukar wrote:
I for one would love one day with Newtonian, just for the hilarity that would ensue.
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LOL that's the idea.
Add in planetary gravity wells too. 
Watch Shrooms smack into planets as they try to approach to camp. ROFL.
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lets make a huge black hole XD
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-10-05 22:42
Newtonian physics sounds like fun, but realistically you'd have to add in ship to ship collisions as well. Think of the fun of ramming someone instead of self destructing, or just running over that Transport that's moving in to drop troops on you.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-10-05 22:47
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On 2010-10-05 22:42, Grumpy Old Man wrote:
Newtonian physics sounds like fun, but realistically you'd have to add in ship to ship collisions as well. Think of the fun of ramming someone instead of self destructing, or just running over that Transport that's moving in to drop troops on you.
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hmmm
SCREW PING! WHAM!
the sound of the end of luth
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-10-06 01:14
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On 2010-10-05 19:28, BackSlash wrote:
Whilst I can see what point you're trying to make, I'm pretty damned sure the game encourages and supports actually moving your ship - otherwise we'd all be sat at planets going "COME HERE!", "NO U!".
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Exceot... this isexactly what happens. Whether its a planet or a gate, its more effective to sit still and spam spacebar until you're getting shot at - and even then, if you're in a ship bigger than a cruiser its still more effective to sit still at optimum range because you're likely to get hit anyways. If you're not ICC, its even more effective because you can turn your ship "faster" (the radius is smallest) sitting still, distributing damage far easier.
The only incentive to move for smaller ships exists because if they don't they'll die because they're held by duct tape.
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A ship out-manouvering another ship at slow speeds generally requires more skill than someone at high speeds (in my experience anyway). I always feel more tense when getting in a bit of a dance at close range.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-10-05 19:38 ]
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I for one, lack the ability to see the merit in skill that comes from sitting still and hitting spacebar as hard as you can.
-Ent
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-10-06 01:28
he said low speed, not sitting still
at low speeds an error can become fatal especially if you expose your rear, allowing the enemy to get in a superior position
at high speeds an error could be erased with some fancy twists and turns
another point i noticed is: as a side effect of increased speed and range of icc wepons, icc is effectively the best at dealing with small ships
proof: dodging a QST is alot easier than dodging an IC, and dodging a QST can be done at a much shorter range
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-10-06 03:02
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On 2010-10-06 01:14, Saint Valentine wrote:
Exceot... this isexactly what happens. Whether its a planet or a gate, its more effective to sit still and spam spacebar until you're getting shot at - and even then, if you're in a ship bigger than a cruiser its still more effective to sit still at optimum range because you're likely to get hit anyways. If you're not ICC, its even more effective because you can turn your ship "faster" (the radius is smallest) sitting still, distributing damage far easier.
The only incentive to move for smaller ships exists because if they don't they'll die because they're held by duct tape.
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But isn't that the norm?
That's what capital ship warfare is all about. You're a massive ship several hundred meters long. You cannot avoid projectiles that are moving many times your max velocity.
So if you're at a planet, next to a plat, or near a gate, you sit still and try to tank it out against other ships until you begin to take some damage. Then you begin to rotate and move to spread that damage out to other arcs.
It makes no sense for an already unmanuevarable ship to attempt to manuever. IRL, tanks sit still in defilade positions and open fire upon the enemy. Big ships are tanks, in a way.
Only smaller ships need to move about as they are much less durable.
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On 2010-10-06 01:14, Saint Valentine wrote:
I for one, lack the ability to see the merit in skill that comes from sitting still and hitting spacebar as hard as you can.
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This is thing that's strange. TBH, I don't see much skill involved in playing DS. We're talking about skills as in twitch skills.
DS is more about tactics and timing. It's more about using your grey matter. If you call that skill, then yeah... maybe.
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Fatal Rocko Willis
Fleet Admiral
Fatal Squadron
Joined: March 01, 2003
Posts: 1336
From: Kentucky
| Posted: 2010-10-06 03:25
I think, in my honest opinion, the game mechanics are fine as the are as far as move ing your ship. Think this way...
Most ships that do stay still and do not move fast are Stations. Now save for the few Missle and Fighter based ships (that would not normaly go into direct combat but occasionally do) it is understandable that they sit back and play the ARTY role.
Now I know that I for one when playing a direct combat ship I am constantly on the move when the enemy is withing my gun range. Why? Because when the enemy is within cannon range of you sitting still invites a usually quick and painfully embarrasing death. I do not know too many Dread pilots that sit still and take punishment.
Now as far as turning... If a ship fires engines to go forward in a straight linr so be it but to turn your ship to face the enemy would require a sort of thrust (either on the nose or tail of the ship) thus completely negating the idea of ships not being able to turn when standing still. To do so would be paramont to saying that the ships thrusters that turn the ship only work when the ship is in motion.
That would go against every known law of common sense. "Helm! Turn the ship to put our good armour facing towards the enemy! Sorry Skipper! ThrusterS only work if we are moving!"
And what happens if a ship were to turn to face a planet because he wants to jup to a planet and orbit it (maybe for repairs or to mine or to drop/retreive troops. Now he is in orbit and a enemy ship decloaks behind him. He is pointing at the planet, cannot go forward for risking a planet collision and cannot turn to clear the planet before attempting to run away from the big nasty enemy trying to kill him before he jumps away.
If we were to disable rotation of a ship turning still we might as well turn off the lights and lock the door on DS on the way out.
~Nuff Said
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-10-06 06:42
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On 2010-10-06 03:25, Fatal Rocko Willis wrote:
Now I know that I for one when playing a direct combat ship I am constantly on the move when the enemy is withing my gun range. Why? Because when the enemy is within cannon range of you sitting still invites a usually quick and painfully embarrasing death. I do not know too many Dread pilots that sit still and take punishment.
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I don't know many dread pilots that move and don't take very much punishment.
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Now as far as turning... If a ship fires engines to go forward in a straight linr so be it but to turn your ship to face the enemy would require a sort of thrust (either on the nose or tail of the ship) thus completely negating the idea of ships not being able to turn when standing still. To do so would be paramont to saying that the ships thrusters that turn the ship only work when the ship is in motion.
That would go against every known law of common sense. "Helm! Turn the ship to put our good armour facing towards the enemy! Sorry Skipper! ThrusterS only work if we are moving!"
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You're piloting a multi-kilometer wide, incredibly massive spaceship. Imagine how much thrust it would take to move that mass simply forward. Now imagine how much it takes to just turn it. This isn't like turning a car. Perhaps I should have just ommitted the no turning part at zero thrust and just made a minimal turn rate?
As for your other points, here's the thing.
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And what happens if a ship were to turn to face a planet because he wants to jup to a planet and orbit it (maybe for repairs or to mine or to drop/retreive troops. Now he is in orbit and a enemy ship decloaks behind him. He is pointing at the planet, cannot go forward for risking a planet collision and cannot turn to clear the planet before attempting to run away from the big nasty enemy trying to kill him before he jumps away.
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This means you have to think. Yeah I know, sucks right? You're playing, and you have to keep in mind how you're moving your ship. If when you stop into orbit you're facing a planet, it becomes a factor of you being negligent.
I guess thats just me being tired of the same boring fights? Not having to really think if you don't want to seems to take from the game.
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If we were to disable rotation of a ship turning still we might as well turn off the lights and lock the door on DS on the way out.
~Nuff Said
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Fair enough on this point. I would say to not disable it entirely, but still a minimum and maximum turn rate.
As for...
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But isn't that the norm?
That's what capital ship warfare is all about. You're a massive ship several hundred meters long. You cannot avoid projectiles that are moving many times your max velocity.
So if you're at a planet, next to a plat, or near a gate, you sit still and try to tank it out against other ships until you begin to take some damage. Then you begin to rotate and move to spread that damage out to other arcs.
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Which should come at a penalty, and there isn't one. You're more effective sitting still and throwing your weapons at your enemy than actually moving. The whole point here is that distributing damage evenly should come at a cost, and it doesn't because Arcs don't suck except with Assault ships.
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It makes no sense for an already unmanuevarable ship to attempt to manuever. IRL, tanks sit still in defilade positions and open fire upon the enemy. Big ships are tanks, in a way.
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Can't really draw an analogy between a ship the size of a small moon and a small blip on that moon.
I suppose another main point here is this : capital ships have no weaknesses. They're durable, they have heavy firepower, and can keep pace with smaller ships either through constant firing or by jumping.
The typical way capital ship battles turn out now is two sides just hit spacebar until the other side dies. Theres really no point to jumping behind a stationary target - its just going to turn to face you and what a surprise, all that damage you did to the rear or to the sides was for nothing. And that ship can still sit there, still hitting spacebar, still turning, still distributiing damage without expending energy.
There is no "outmanuevering" there is no 'flanking' there is, in other words, no point to do anything but smash spacebar. This is true even with smaller ships.
Infact, with smaller ships, they're even worse for it, a large ship can match a small ships turning radius by sitting still, so good luck getting behind one, because they can just stop and turn around. Boom. As ships get smaller, the only reason they move is because of that one hit alpha annihilating you. But even then you maintain a slow speed. Speed and manueverability are concepts in Darkspace that are supposed to be advantages but seemingly pose no threat.
But you really can't argue if you enjoy one button games.
-Ent
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2010-10-06 11:07
Random Idea: Moving makes you harder to hit
Implementation: Left up to the reader as an exercise
Also, seriously, when will armor rings get removed and we'll have actual model collisions? Most ships suck at dodging because of this
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-10-06 13:11
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On 2010-10-06 11:07, Fattierob (x2 Perfect Fleet Formations) wrote:
Also, seriously, when will armor rings get removed and we'll have actual model collisions? Most ships suck at dodging because of this
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ROFL. I did ask this.
The answer was: It's easier to calculate a given distance from the center of the ship, based on the class and size, than to create an actual hitbox.
That plus it's cheaper on system resources too.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-10-06 18:02
it would need EVEN more thrust to turn while going forward...not less as you say...
and almost no skilled player in a dread sits still, they usually find a battle speed they like that doesn't bother too much with energy. Also, as an icc player you should be able to know the deadliness of small ships vs large, icc has better acceleration, turning rates, most accurate weapons, and the fact that the other factions are close ranged(and therefore have slower projectiles).
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2010-10-06 18:42
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On 2010-10-05 21:11, Sardaukar wrote:
I for one would love one day with Newtonian, just for the hilarity that would ensue.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-10-06 19:37
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On 2010-10-06 06:42, Saint Valentine wrote:
You're piloting a multi-kilometer wide, incredibly massive spaceship. Imagine how much thrust it would take to move that mass simply forward. Now imagine how much it takes to just turn it. This isn't like turning a car. Perhaps I should have just ommitted the no turning part at zero thrust and just made a minimal turn rate?
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It's not like turning a car at all, and this is where Darkspace demonstrates is incredible levels of realism, or lack thereof.
In space, there is no maximum turning speed. There is a maximum turning acceleration, yes, but no max turning speed. Also, it's a lot easier to rotate a spacecraft about an axis than it is to accelerate it in a particular direction, which is why spacecraft, including current craft like the space shuttle, have a single huge engine for accelerating the craft and a myriad of relatively tiny thrusters (the space shuttle uses cold gas, and is surprisingly manoeuvreable) to rotate the craft to point in the direction it wants to accelerate in. In spite of this significant power difference, spacecraft can rotate faster than they can accelerate.
Current thinking suggests that pathetic, barely-move-you-at-all thrusters would be perfectly fine for evading enemy fire, even if you're flying a ship four times the size of a DS dreadnaught.
Also, turning the ship is an entirely different kettle of fish in comparison to changing its direction of movement. The speed a ship is going at will not change its ability to rotate; the ship can happily accelerate its rotation until it's spinning like a top regardless of any other motions it might be undergoing.
Similarly, the speed of the ship is irrelevant when it comes to the amount of acceleration the main engines can apply; if you engine generates 1G of acceleration, you can always accelerate in another direction at a rate of 1G. It will make your turning circle a lot larger if you're moving quickly, but it won't affect the rate at which you change that speed in a given direction.
DS gets the faster = larger turning circle part right, at least, even if you can't fly backwards or spin around as fast as you like.
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On 2010-10-06 06:42, Saint Valentine wrote:
The typical way capital ship battles turn out now is two sides just hit spacebar until the other side dies. Theres really no point to jumping behind a stationary target - its just going to turn to face you and what a surprise, all that damage you did to the rear or to the sides was for nothing. And that ship can still sit there, still hitting spacebar, still turning, still distributiing damage without expending energy.
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I find that there's plenty of point jumping in behind a stationary enemy dreadnaught. I arrive at close range at about half speed, start firing, and turn in the opposite direction to the enemy ship when they try to turn around, keeping me in their rear arc and compelling them to open the throttles or get shot to pieces. This is harder to pull off in an assault dreadnaught because of their firepower being primarily forward-facing and you'll be side-on most of the time, but I have a battle dreadnaught fitted with acceleration and turning enhancements that is wonderful for sticking behind a stationary target.
And even if they manage to face you, it's not the end of the world because you can just fly straight over them, ending up back behind them. Then repeat the circle-them-as-fast-as-they-turn tactic and pile on the damage.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've always found that stationary dreadnaughts aren't too hard to fight against.
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2010-10-06 19:42
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On 2010-10-05 22:47, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
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On 2010-10-05 22:42, Grumpy Old Man wrote:
Newtonian physics sounds like fun, but realistically you'd have to add in ship to ship collisions as well. Think of the fun of ramming someone instead of self destructing, or just running over that Transport that's moving in to drop troops on you.
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hmmm
SCREW PING! WHAM!
the sound of the end of luth
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+1
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Admiral Alucard (2IC)
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: April 30, 2004
Posts: 279
From: St. Helens, England
| Posted: 2010-10-07 04:58
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On 2010-10-05 22:47, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
hmmm
SCREW PING! WHAM!
the sound of the end of luth
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Would be like speed bumps in space.....does space have a speed limit, what happens if we brake that limmit? Is there actualy space police?!? neee noor neee noor...ooo
I should probably get some sleep going a little too in depth into this here
-Carries on thinking the rest in his head-
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