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sag on ice |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2011-05-26 03:30
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On 2011-05-26 03:08, Azure Prower wrote:
My suggestions for a more dynamic map:
-Put Kaus in between Tau Ceti and Episilon Eri.
-Although ICC and UGTO home gate systems are next to each other, both UGTO and ICC have a choice of where to advance - or if they chose to - advance each other directly.
-K'luth being in the position of how UGTO currently are by being further away from the other factions, they don't have to advantage UGTO currently has by having a direct route to Luyten.
-K'luth can use Kaus as a 'by pass' system to get to Luyten or Tau Ceti. As K'luth are less dependent on planets and are in direct confrontation with the MI.
-The main confrontation system between UGTO and K'luth will be R33.
-In Luyten, place the gates from Tau Ceti and R33 close to each other so that ICC can easily access R33 if they so wish.
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I like the idea of putting Kaus to act as a buffer between ICC and Kluth.
However, there's a couple of things I don't agree with.
- Eri should have a direct link to Luyten
All other factions have a direct path to Luyten. We should remove the buffer system's path to Luyten instead.... so refer below.
- Remove Kaus Borealis link to Luyten.
This will force the MI to go through Eri, and Tau. Which will stop the UGTO's QQ about MI smashing their planets. Kluth can deal with MI then.
- Remove R33's link to Luyten.
R33 will be fiercely defended by UGTO due to its history, so having R33 linked to Luyten provides UGTO with a 2 pronged approach to Luyten. Likewise, if Luyt is under UGTO control, R33 has a double reinforcement route.
As per my previous post, we'll also need to move the jump gate locations in those systems, especially the R33 and Fargo rock ones.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-26 03:32 ]
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-05-26 03:45
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 03:30, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 03:08, Azure Prower wrote:
My suggestions for a more dynamic map:
-Put Kaus in between Tau Ceti and Episilon Eri.
-Although ICC and UGTO home gate systems are next to each other, both UGTO and ICC have a choice of where to advance - or if they chose to - advance each other directly.
-K'luth being in the position of how UGTO currently are by being further away from the other factions, they don't have to advantage UGTO currently has by having a direct route to Luyten.
-K'luth can use Kaus as a 'by pass' system to get to Luyten or Tau Ceti. As K'luth are less dependent on planets and are in direct confrontation with the MI.
-The main confrontation system between UGTO and K'luth will be R33.
-In Luyten, place the gates from Tau Ceti and R33 close to each other so that ICC can easily access R33 if they so wish.
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I like the idea of putting Kaus to act as a buffer between ICC and Kluth.
However, there's a couple of things I don't agree with.
- Eri should have a direct link to Luyten
All other factions have a direct path to Luyten. We should remove the buffer system's path to Luyten instead.... so refer below.
- Remove Kaus Borealis link to Luyten.
This will force the MI to go through Eri, and Tau. Which will stop the UGTO's QQ about MI smashing their planets. Kluth can deal with MI then.
- Remove R33's link to Luyten.
R33 will be fiercely defended by UGTO due to its history, so having R33 linked to Luyten provides UGTO with a 2 pronged approach to Luyten. Likewise, if Luyt is under UGTO control, R33 has a double reinforcement route.
As per my previous post, we'll also need to move the jump gate locations in those systems, especially the R33 and Fargo rock ones.
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-05-26 03:49 ]
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1. K'luth will have the advantage of being further away from the other factions (ie. breathing space). Giving them a direct route to Luyten would just give them the advantage UGTO has now. Using Kaus as a 'by pass' system to Luyten seems fair due to the K'luth having cloak and being less reliant on planets. I don't see the problem here.
2. UGTO are the furtherest away from the MI. Their QQ would be subjective. Again, don't see a problem.
3. Cutting the link from Luyten to R33 would prevent ICC from going into R33 ever. That is a problem I want to avoid.
Two system hops is too much. UGTO may fiercely defend R33, but then they have to worry about ICC moving into Cinc or Luyten. Which is what I was hoping to achieve.
From my map, every one has near equal chance of accessing every system. Every system is only one system hop away or less.
As for the jump gates. The positions they are in are fine. Just rearrange where they connect to.
The only thing I would change is:
Fargo Rock Tau Ceti gate -> Kaus
Current Eri-Tau Ceti gate in Tau Ceti -> Cinc
Current Kaus-Tau Ceti gate in Tau Ceti -> Luyten
R33 gates I don't see a problem with.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-26 04:27
From what I'm reading, your intention would be to let ICC attack Luyten, while Kluth attack R33, keeping UGTO on their toes.
Kluth don't need breathing space. Seriously. If any faction needs it, it would be ICC.
Your logic seems sound, but you may have overlooked that perhaps ICC and Kluth might be fighting over Kaus instead. Not a likely scenario perhaps, but still plausible.
On the other hand, Kluth might want to drive for the central system, Luyten too, because it gives them a clear shot at Cincinnati. This forces them through Kaus, rather than R33 (path of least resistance) and into potential contention with ICC. This will disadvantage ICC. Because if Luyten or R33 is held on strongly by UGTO, then Kluth will definitely swarm through Tau. And ICC will be caught in the middle again.
So, I'd still suggest a direct link of Eri to Luyt and cutting off R33 and Kaus.
That way Kluth have no reason to go through Kaus except to hit ICC. And they can then focus on R33 and Luyten at the same time. This puts the most contested system, Luyten, at the forefront of battle again.
The way I see it, R33 isn't really of interest to the ICC. They've repeatedly demonstrated their propensity to drive straight for Lacerta. And that means they will be interested in Luyten and Cinci primarily.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-26 04:39 ]
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-05-26 04:53
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 04:27, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
From what I'm reading, your intention would be to let ICC attack Luyten, while Kluth attack R33, keeping UGTO on their toes.
Kluth don't need breathing space. Seriously. If any faction needs it, it would be ICC.
Your logic seems sound, but you may have overlooked that perhaps ICC and Kluth might be fighting over Kaus instead. Not a likely scenario perhaps, but still plausible.
On the other hand, Kluth might want to drive for the central system, Luyten too, because it gives them a clear shot at Cincinnati. This forces them through Kaus, rather than R33 (path of least resistance) and into potential contention with ICC. This will disadvantage ICC. Because if Luyten or R33 is held on strongly by UGTO, then Kluth will definitely swarm through Tau. And ICC will be caught in the middle again.
So, I'd still suggest a direct link of Eri to Luyt and cutting off R33 and Kaus.
That way Kluth have no reason to go through Kaus except to hit ICC. And they can then focus on R33 and Luyten at the same time. This puts the most contested system, Luyten, at the forefront of battle again.
The way I see it, R33 isn't really of interest to the ICC. They've repeatedly demonstrated their propensity to drive straight for Lacerta. And that means they will be interested in Luyten and Cinci primarily.
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-05-26 05:04 ]
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You could swap Tau and Eri around or swap R33 and Kaus around.
But it makes more sense in the current format. Yes UGTO will be on their toes. But they have three systems they can attack and defend from that are next to Cinc.
There will be no doubt some K'luth may slip through Kaus straight to Tau Ceti. Yet if UGTO and ICC want to team up and assault K'luth, they can push through R33 and Kaus.
Yet it is no surprise that UGTO and ICC prefer fighting each other than they do K'luth. This way they have multiple ways of attacking each other instead of needing to go through Luyten.
You may have noticed I made Luyten less the center of the conflict and more a 'path way', making the map more diverse by making Luyten less important.
If ICC want to assault UGTO or K'luth, they don't have to go through Luyten.
If K'luth want to assault UGTO or ICC, they don't have to go through Luyten.
If UGTO want to assault K'luth or ICC, they don't have to go through Luyten.
If we take what you're suggesting, we'll all end up back in Luyten and nothing would of changed. Then we're back to square one with the stalemate QQ.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-26 05:01
Let's see how the Devs decide.
We both agree on the layout. It's just the Eri-Luyten / R33-Luyten link that we have a diff of opinions on.
BTW, back to jump gates.
In Tau, the Luyt jump gate needs to be moved away from Fargo and be placed equidistant between Fargo and Alantis.
In Cincinnati, the R33 and Luyten gate needs to be spaced out more. The R33 gate can be relocated to be placed nearer to Sentry Levi. In their current position it gives UGTO an advantage if their SY is placed at Two Guns or Outpost Kangaroo. Quick response to either R33 or Luyt.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2011-05-26 07:24
Quote:
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On 2011-05-25 21:43, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-25 14:56, Enterprise wrote:
The fact is, and has been for a while now, planets are meaningless. The goal, oh the goal, of course, is to capture all the planets, but why the hell would you?
Infact, why the hell would you capture anything beyond getting Gold Transport? The answer is: Combat.
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I have to agree with Ent. Planets need to mean something more for the entire system or server.
Right now, planets serve as SYs and Depots. And that's it. All a faction has to do is put an SY in a system, defend it like hell and they're all set. Ditto the depot planet.
You can spawn any ship you want from your garage. Even if you have one last SY planet left on that one last system in the server, your faction or fleet can spawn whatever they want from their garage and then retake everything once the enemy have logged.
Planets don't matter. System ownership is just a matter of faction or fleet ego.
- UGTO regularly owns 3 out of 5 systems and are happy placing depots and SYs on their clusters. Then they sit there and wait for someone to come attack their depots/SYs for action and pres. Why do they wanna hold Luyt? Because it's right next to Kluth and ICC. They're guaranteed action when the other two come a-knockin' for some bangin'....
- Kluth are not really interested in planets, they just want combat, they just want to kill. Losing a few planets in Eri doesn't bother them because it simply means a target rich environment near home. They don't have to travel far to gain pres.
- ICC.... I don't know what the hell IQQ are doing these days, so I can't say much.
I've said it some time back. Planets need to affect your ability to spawn ships in the system.
Let me repeat that: Planets need to affect your ability to spawn ships in the system.
No one cares. No one tries, because they already have their big shiny toys in the garage. And because "I worked hard to get to this rank so I should be able to spawn whatever ships I want", planets don't matter.
Understand so far?
No? Let me make it simpler for you. I'll propose this.
Just like each planet has control points, I think that each faction needs to have some kind of points system that determines the biggest ship that they can spawn. And this should be directly related to the number and type of planets that they own in the server.
Different planets will have different values attached to them, and building SYs on this planet will accumulate points that determine the type of ships you can spawn in the server, regardless of what the hell is in your garage.
If you control 3 systems with 5 terran planets with SYs on them ("tarran" for those of you who can't spell) then you probably should have enough control points to spawn stations.
If you don't even fully control a single system, but have only 4 planets left on that server, with only one of them having an SY, the biggest ship you can spawn in that system would be a cruiser.
If you want a station, get it from your home server (Lacerta, Cassiopeia or Andromeda).
Now tell me, if that happened, would you consider planet ownership important?
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-25 21:46 ]
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I'd prefer to go along the lines of a blueprint system that completely eliminates permanent ships.
I've mentioned it elsewhere, but here it is again.
You get rid of 5% hull ships. When you die, its gone. Boom. Forever. That ship is anyways.
However, you can save layouts of ships, which can be spawned (costing full resources), and this ship CAN be stored too, just like now. Any enhancements are tied to that particular layout (so durability loss still occurs).
At that point, you make resources important. Very important, because if you lose a ship, you hurt your whole faction too.
Now, you can improve upon the resource system itself. You make certain resource types on a planet be needed to spawn certain ships, you can make it so that trade routes are player controlled and transfer those resource types (just the flags, resources are still just one number!), and in effect you need to collect these planet resource types to spawn ever bigger ships. So controlling a whole system is neccessary to spawn a station.
It helps at this point if resources accumulated per tick was based on these flags. Such as, you only build one mine on a planet, but the amount it provides depends on the native flags on the planet. (which means planets with rich resources like hypermatter will generate exponentially more resources than just one with metals). Its nice resource balancing system that makes you go out and get those planets.
Its important, because the ramifcations make three things happen (under the hypothetical situation where such systems are balanced):
1. If you die, spawning a big ship in a system just recently captured is impossible or dififcult, especially for a large fleet. But your back lines are important and allow such spawning. It encourages people to really care more about those ships. You lose it, you lose it.
2. Capturing a system is important to spawning bigger ships. Cruisers and below take so much less resources to spawn that in front line systems that you're beginning to capture, taking out a new dreadnaught isn't going to happen. If well designed and well balanced, the resources needed to spawn those ships will be spread out enough that you'll need to capture at least half the system.
But that just balances a small problem, what about the larger MV?
One thing DS needs more than anything else, is needing a reason to expand. You own a system, you can spawn anything, what more do you need?
That kind of incentive is hard to find. Do you want prestige bonuses for owning more systems/planets? Maybe rare/unique enhancments? Mods only found on certain planets?
Its all alot of work. Thats the point at the end, when you think all about it. You can switch a few things around, but its not a solution, its a bandaid. And maybe thats enough for now, but I would urge the Devs to strongly consider the long term, and that planetary mechanics as a whole will need to change to significantly improve the games core goal, and that after the ship layouts are set perhaps we should set our sights on this.
Im not saying my opinion is right, or that is should be this way - there are many ways to improve upon what we have. But improvements ARE needed, and it will provide a richer experience for everyone if we stop treating the MV like a sandbox. You would be hard pressed to find many people who prefer it that way.
-Ent
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P2.
Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: December 08, 2005
Posts: 140
From: Bahia Blanca, Buenos Aires, Argentina
| Posted: 2011-05-26 07:42
Please read this post, is related to and have feedback from devs
http://www.darkspace.net/index.htm?module=forums.php&page=/viewtopic.php?topic=51063&forum=36&7
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-26 10:50
My vote is to replace Luyten with Epsilon Ind. Plenty of planets in a large centeral system. So long as gates are placed properly (and I haven't thought about where to place them) it will work.
I don't agree with cutting off any factions from the central system. I liked the map where every faction had access to the central system and one shared buffer system outside the wheel. I do not remember it's exact layout.
By the way, the Two Guns cluster in Cincinnati totally screws up AI pathing and you wind up with AI constantly warping between the Cincinnati and Luyten gates. MI are constantly stuck there so they wind up being no threat at all. When's the last time MI attacked a planet outside Borealis? Hasn't happened this map that I've seen because they're constantly at those gates, flying endless circles between them.
Simply moving the Borealis or Luyten gate would solve the problem.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-05-26 10:53
MI are constantly nuking Argrea in Tau, I gave up even trying to watch it because sometimes I'll get rid of a Longhead only to have another show up 20 minutes later. From what I've noticed it's mostly ICC AI getting stuck in a loop there with the occasional MI Cruiser.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2011-05-26 10:56 ]
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Adapt or die.
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Fatal Perihelion
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 308
| Posted: 2011-05-26 13:24
-From what i have seen MI Dreads also love Ursovica in Luyten long time, not just Agrea or Farstay.
-To buffer between ICC and Kluth: -1 , i dont want Lucy to be too far away.
-To planet system thingy:
i like the idea most in which things, like Metals, Heavy Metalls, Irridium, Dark Matter or whatever special recources there are, are needed and are crucial to spawn all kinds of ships. So if you have analyzed or already know the enemys system well, you may do something like:
"Ok lets take away Wecamp from them, its their only planet that provides them with towels, without towels they cant grow any Mushrooms no more, yay! Wecamp ftw !"
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Silent Threat { Vier }
Marshal
Anarchy's End
Joined: August 03, 2004
Posts: 278
From: Waiting...watching...
| Posted: 2011-06-22 17:00
Is anything being done about this? Can we expect a new MV map around the time that beta goes to release or soon after?
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Marshal kubro
Marshal
Joined: May 02, 2010
Posts: 13
| Posted: 2011-06-22 19:14
u tell em good doran
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2011-06-22 22:50
wow... who went and got Doran mad?
if players are stagnating... develop an invasion operation. catch them off guard.
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Pegasus
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 02, 2005
Posts: 434
From: Eleventh galaxy on the right!
| Posted: 2011-06-23 05:57
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On 2011-05-25 09:47, Tommas [ USF HunnyBunny ] wrote:
why go to the other servers? theres no one there, why? because u cant detect if anyone goes there.
Mv map is boring, if you replace it to the old 1.483 map it would be awsome.
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I agree 1.483 map was awesome, capturing faction planets and moving into the home systems had such a huge sense of accomplishment.
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Retired K'luth Combateer
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Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
| Posted: 2011-06-23 06:13
I remember when i started playing DS , one of my favourite things regarding planets was that they "held" different types of resource , dark matter was always a good planet to capture and hold for example.
These different resource types were needed for the building of different ships , weapons etc in varying quantities , planet control and mining were important.
In my humble opinion this needs to be re-introduced in some form to make planet ownership more viable , for example if a ship is destroyed in combat it needs x amount of type 1 resource , x amount of type 2 resource etc etc for repairs before respawning , tie this in with only 1 sy per faction and supply lines , mining , resource management become important , if you made some resource very rare (random spawning maybe) then trading between fleets of resources and fleet control of planets would also become important.
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