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[Suggestion] Mines |
Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
|  Posted: 2011-06-27 09:21
not the "hi ho hi ho we're digging for diamonds kind" its the area denial destroy foolish ships kind.
and mines have allways been about Area denial, Shaping the battlefield and only untill this space faring game did they introduce FoF* to them.
the current mines sad to say, are jokes.
plain and simple, in the plain vast nothingness that makes up space using mines to shape a battlefield is... pointless.
except for gates and maybe planets. however with the way mines work currently this still requires a hell of alot of guessing and more luck then anything else (besides WH's maybe)
i suggest a change that will allow mines to be used how they should be, Area denial:
Greatly improve mine Damage:
At current you can only drop about 2 waves of mines, thats not alot, and the damage is soo poor you may aswell not drop them at all, infact you should be flying a different ship all together.
Homing:
im sure you understand the scale of space and that dropping a mine is like dropping a piece of sand into the oceans, an exploding piece of sand yet the scale is still proportional.
therefore any enemy ship within a radius of 300g.u of the mine(1*) should draw the mine toward it at a max speed of 15(2*)g.u, that should stop upon the target moving out of its 300 Radius (3*)
ECM:
Mines should not be visible without proper equipment, whats the point of having mines if they get shot down without splash damage even touching the ship. a base ECM equal or better than AR missiles might be best.
Side note: Mines are something that should make your trip a short one, if even 2 or 3 hit your ship, you should be back at a depot planet waiting repairs not bearing through it like its really nothing, which it really is at current.
Also for tracking you have similiar code allready from missiles. no?
now for the stars: *= Friend or Foe
(1*)= 300 g.u seems reasonable to me,but im intrested in what other people think
(2*)= again 15 g.u seems reasonable, dreads have to be going the complete opposite direction to avoid one. up for debate aswell.
(3*)= i personally would prefer them to return to their original starting point, however without it you can task corv and other small ships to clear mine fields. however shooting them may be better all round.
Also i am greatly against it self destructing when it loses it target as Kluth will just get a free pass. come in, cloak, boom.
Feedback? Support? Criticism?
[ This Message was edited by: Marius Falix on 2011-06-27 09:56 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-06-27 09:45
Just increase the damage and AOE of mines will do.
No need complicated moving mines.
Damage x10, AOE x5
*Evil Grinz*
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-06-27 10:27
There were 2 kind of mines . One static , one that follows the enemy whenever they are around 150 gu range. They removed that kind of mines 3 years ago.
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Botoru
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 25, 2011
Posts: 84
From: England
| Posted: 2011-06-27 10:56
Quote:
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On 2011-06-27 10:27, Pakhos[+R] wrote:
There were 2 kind of mines . One static , one that follows the enemy whenever they are around 150 gu range. They removed that kind of mines 3 years ago.
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is he lieing?
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-06-27 10:58
Just upping the damage/AOE for mines would be plenty.
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2011-06-27 11:29
Mines used to have fairly high damage. Here's why they've pretty much been nerfed into uselessness.
Mines have always been a bit of a problem, in order to make laying a field of them easier, they made the gadget drop batches of 5 per device. This had the unfortunate effect of making the then okay damage of mines incredibly powerful. We then see some K'Luth players exploiting the crap out of this using their cloaking minelayers VERY offensively, obliterating enemy ships without much effort. So mine damage had to be greatly reduced. End result, mines are currently worthless, and its unlikely to ever receive a damage buff in their current state. The mine mechanic needs to be completely reworked to remove certain exploits that existed in the past before a damage buff can be given.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2011-06-27 11:36
Quote:
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On 2011-06-27 11:29, Tellaris wrote:
Mines used to have fairly high damage. Here's why they've pretty much been nerfed into uselessness.
Mines have always been a bit of a problem, in order to make laying a field of them easier, they made the gadget drop batches of 5 per device. This had the unfortunate effect of making the then okay damage of mines incredibly powerful. We then see some K'Luth players exploiting the crap out of this using their cloaking minelayers VERY offensively, obliterating enemy ships without much effort. So mine damage had to be greatly reduced. End result, mines are currently worthless, and its unlikely to ever receive a damage buff in their current state. The mine mechanic needs to be completely reworked to remove certain exploits that existed in the past before a damage buff can be given.
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an easy way around this would be to lower how many mines are dropped per and with cloak nurfed allready therefore doing it offensively from luth atleast would be alot harder than it used to be.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2011-06-27 13:38
i'd say replace the current mines
you place a static object, which generate a aoe-field around itself damaging enemy ships nearby
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-06-27 18:36
Quote:
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On 2011-06-27 11:36, Marius Falix wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-06-27 11:29, Tellaris wrote:
Mines used to have fairly high damage. Here's why they've pretty much been nerfed into uselessness.
Mines have always been a bit of a problem, in order to make laying a field of them easier, they made the gadget drop batches of 5 per device. This had the unfortunate effect of making the then okay damage of mines incredibly powerful. We then see some K'Luth players exploiting the crap out of this using their cloaking minelayers VERY offensively, obliterating enemy ships without much effort. So mine damage had to be greatly reduced. End result, mines are currently worthless, and its unlikely to ever receive a damage buff in their current state. The mine mechanic needs to be completely reworked to remove certain exploits that existed in the past before a damage buff can be given.
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an easy way around this would be to lower how many mines are dropped per and with cloak nurfed allready therefore doing it offensively from luth atleast would be alot harder than it used to be.
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I would rather have 4 separate mine devices which lay a single mine each, than a single device that lays 4 mines at a time.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-06-27 21:00 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2011-06-27 19:26
Yes, there really were homing mines, hint: they didn't work right, so they were removed.
Mines have always, always been a tricky issue. They are nerfed now for a large variety of reasons.
Back in .480, torps could be swapped for mines, which lead to alot of interesting cases. Long story short, they were used as insta-gib weapons. The Dev team decided that even though you were smart enough to take down a dread with tactics instead of brute force, they got the bat.
Marius delivers and excellent point though. Mines aren't strong enough, they aren't hidden well enough, and yes, its alot like dropping sand into water and hoping that a fish will come close enough for it to blow up.
Because even if you mine right, get lucky enough to guess where an enemy is going to be and when, and you actually manage to hit them, they don't do crap for damage.
So its really hard to say up the damage because then it gets abused, its really hard to give them a massive AoE because then it gets abused, and its hard to get them to home because for some reason it just doesn't work well.
Its just a gameplay mechanic that doesn't work well simply because the ingenuity of the players makes it hard to balance.
The only thing I can think of that comes close to balance is a very large AoE. I'm talking 350gu or so. This means that if players lay mines, they got to be careful not to hurt themselves, their teammates, and whatnot. Its a weapon designed as a trap.
Up the damage, but of course make it reasonable. Ships on the outer edge (100gu+) are only going to get 50% or less of the total damage.
Limit how close mines can be to one another to prevent stacking, and now you have the Darkspace equivilent of a trap. You can place mines strategically to deal damage to incoming ships approaching a planet, hit a large amount of ships entering through a jumpgate, softening them up, and so.
The trick is to get the damage scale right, that way its strong enough to make a dent, but not strong enough to kill everything, and making damn sure that it can't be abused so a bunch of minelayers just screw everything over.
-Ent
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-06-27 21:09
Quote:
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On 2011-06-27 19:26, Enterprise wrote:
Its just a gameplay mechanic that doesn't work well simply because the ingenuity of the players makes it hard to balance.
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This happens in many games. Put simply, even IRL, ppl find many creative ways to use any particular object out of their intended design. Why should we try too hard to limit it?
Would you chase your own tail nerfing a particular weapon over and over again just because players adapt and find new ways within the game mechanics to employ it to brutal efficiency?
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2011-06-28 01:38
Quote:
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On 2011-06-27 10:56, *Optimus Prime* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-06-27 10:27, Pakhos[+R] wrote:
There were 2 kind of mines . One static , one that follows the enemy whenever they are around 150 gu range. They removed that kind of mines 3 years ago.
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is he lieing?
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sadly no he is not lieing they did exist back when kluth had instant cloaks and you had to fly arround firing becons in random directions and pray you actually hit a cloak ship with one. (before they allowed pinging which they nerfed to a range where a kluth ship starts firing from anyway thus making it pointless unless you were practically ontop of one XD)
[ This Message was edited by: jamesbob on 2011-06-28 01:40 ]
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2011-06-28 01:45
However, is this happens, let us not overlook an IMPORTANT issue.
Mines will NEED a 15-20 sec activation time in order to avoid abuse...
*Looks at kenny*
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2011-06-28 08:31
Quote:
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On 2011-06-27 11:36, Marius Falix wrote:
an easy way around this would be to lower how many mines are dropped per and with cloak nurfed allready therefore doing it offensively from luth atleast would be alot harder than it used to be.
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The problem you have is that it is only the Scale which can use mines effectively. With the recent changes to cloaking and the fact the Scale has one ECM using the scale is completely useless at the moment save but for a few skilled players. While I like the idea that the scale can only be used by skilled players it does throw up the point of mines being effective in such large spaces.
ICC have the wave of death, which any K'luth will know hurts, whenever they see a Scarab. While the wave destroys all (with this current build, beta is different) even with the changes to the percentage of projectiles which are destroyed the ability to use mines against ICC quite frankly sucks. A Scarab is more likely to kill itself either:
a.) While deploying in a prime location and ship passes over the scarab. (Gates)
b.) While deploying mines a ICC ship jumps at you and uses the wave, instantly hulling you.
c.) Due to the need to stay close in an attempt to hide the mines using ECM.
Without any upgrades to your mines you're going to send your scarab to 10% hull from perfect health with just one salvo, not even the full 3.
I am not calling for the ICC wave to be changed, just pointing out a fact.
Let's move onto the ICC and UGTO mine layers... They're frigates and destroyers with nowhere near the amount of damage that K'luth have. Granted the K'luth are meant to be experts at ambush and would have higher power close range weapons such as mines, i've used a ICC mine laying destroyer with 8 damage enhancements and it doesn't do anything to anyone, it just cannot lay enough mines for it to be worth it.
I haven't tried the UGTO mines purely because they only have a frigate who can lay them right? Well that instantly puts them below the ICC in terms of viability. What the heck is a frigate going to do with one mine every 5 seconds with a maximum of about 12 mines when a destroyer cannot kill most things with about 18 mines?
Just food for thought, here's some fun suggestions:
- Make mines activation time based (so the person laying them doesn't blow himself up).
- Make mines into dumb projectiles (like torpedoes). By this I mean it is an area activated projectile that locks onto the first hostile ship to come within range but instead of homing it simply attempts to fire in a straight line towards where it believes the enemy ship is going. Yes it would be inaccurate and yes small ships wouldn't be hit by it, but that would be the point.
In actual fact, mine fields are not meant to be used to damage the enemy but to slow them down or make them take a different route, one that you have set a trap for. With this idea it would mean that larger ships would have problems if they encountered a mine field as evasion in large ships isn't possible against missile speeds.
- If the above idea is something you like, then consider making the AoE damage less than it is now but still keeping it, meaning if a ship goes through the mine field and is hit, it might damage smaller escorts.
- Reduce the signature of mine fields so that ships will require 2 ECCM (atleast) to detect mines. Mine fields are completely pointless if the enemy knows where they are if they have the ability to destroy them. Once you know there is a mine field you need to get a specialist or someone with electronic warfare to detect and destroy the mines. Making them harder to find will promote this and make varied fleets. Unfortunately every man and his dog owns a ECCM these days.
- That brings me onto the next idea to complement the dumb mine projectile idea. Making un-activated mines hard to destroy. The activation rage of mines should not be as far as the ICC Wave but this should mean that when it is not active it is harder to detect or destroy due to the electronics on the projectile not being used as much as if it were.
While I do tend to 'go on', I am starting to like the idea I just put forward. However it is just 'food for thought' about whether or not mines should be re-introduced in the future. Don't take it as a definate suggestion in how mines should be made.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2011-07-14 13:49
im bumping this due to lack of dev feedback.
seems everyone agrees on atleast a major up on damage.
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