| Author |
let see if we can help balancing the game |
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
|  Posted: 2011-08-11 12:27
Quote:
|
On 2011-08-11 03:45, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Also, to Sparkle's comment on the BS and CS being nerfed completely. Is it primarily because they no longer have the ability to sustain a self repair rate that can outstrip damage? Or is it because their weap loadout is no longer "universal"? For both reasons, I say "Great!".
Stations are now specialized. Previously, you just needed to throw a BS or LS into the middle of a fight and it could ward off a few dreads. Now they truly need support, or die hard in the face of more mobile enemy ships that can dance around them and dodge their massive firepower.
In fact I propose removing the BS and CS completely, then giving the SS the command functions of the CS for whatever future module they have in mind. The SS is the most useful of all the stations anyway.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2011-08-11 12:34 ]
|
|
I'm not opposed to removing them completely either. They have no purpose anymore.
I can't quite point to the one reason why BS and CS feel so completely neutered now. It's a combination of things really. They both need 1 reload, and it's not so they can repair themselves while in combat (they were never all that great at doing that anyway).
The bigger problem is their layouts. The BS is designed for a previous version of the game. They're short to medium ranged combat ships, but they're currently a lot more fragile than a SS and use nerfed core weapons. Their true damage potential is now their beams, but what enemy is going to get within beam range? It's way too easy to sit back, absorb their pitiful core weapons, and laugh as you shred their amor and wonder why they bothered trying to use a BS.
Reload drones can be considered extra armor. It does add to survivability, but more important it lets a station resupply itself. It's a station right? 1 reload drone added to BS and CS will not allow it to survive, (all stations are still pretty bad in combat) but the thing is, a BS is a battle station. It's layout makes it a short to medium ranged ship, which means it should have a lot of armor and good damage, but it doesn't.
I'd like to see BS get the missiles. It can't tank damage and so should not be expected to fight from short or medium range. It's just too fragile. SS are a support station, meant to hang back and AOE resupply the fleet. I would like it to have mostly defensive weapons - lots of beams, maybe some cannons (there's never been cannons on a station, why not start?). It should be a threat at close range but it shouldn't have long range capability - that makes it too useful in too many roles, and makes the BS obsolete.
The CS is a special case and I really need to wait for the command module, but it needs 1 reload drone.
Currently the SS is the battle and support station, so yeah why even have the battle station ingame?
I don't think the addition of 1 reload drone for BS and CS will tip the balance in their favor. It just helps make them a bit less gimped. The bigger problem lies in their outdated layouts, suitable for the previous version but not now.
(the Nest even lost 1 SI per firing arc. It only has 6 now. It has no use; BS need a drastic layout change.)
_________________
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-08-11 13:54
ICC:
-10% damage may have been done to balance ICC vs UGTO, but it does hamper ICC's ability to fight luth. I've had no trouble dealing with ICC ships while playing as UGTO so I'm really struggling to figure out what the issue is, aside from the apparent inability of most UGTO to adapt to the loss of depot planets. The majority of every UGTO fleet I've gone up against or been a part of has mostly consisted of the same setup, a bunch of Dreadnoughts and a few Stations, maybe a couple TC/BC or an Interdictor, and occasionally a Harrier Frigate or two, with maybe a Bomber Frigate if they're capturing planets.
Kluth:
They were fine as they were the day 1.67 went into release, they don't need a 30% armor nerf. They die quickly enough as it is due to the increased damage output of Cruisers and up that came with the new layouts, they truly are a hit first, hit hard, and run away faction now since 1.67 was released and this is good. You no longer see a fleet of luth decloak, sit there tanking fire while killing someone, then cloaking and hanging around the area for a few minutes while they repair then repeating.....they decloak, fire until hulled, then jump away or risk death trying to recloak and hang around longer. Nerfing their armor will make even this risky. They may be bug like, but that does not mean they should be killed just by stepping on them.
UGTO:
The only thing I can say for sure is stations can still tank too much damage. 1 SS+1 BS were able to keep up with repairs from planet defenses, 1 MD, several luth AI showing up randomly, and attacks by luth players while capturing most of Eps Eri, with only a Bomber Frigate for support. It eventually took a planet full of defense bases, a Hive, a Krill, a Siphon, and a MD to kill them.
1 SS+1 BS around a planet with a depot were able to repair as fast as a HC, BC, and SC did damage. After a MC and MD showed up it still took around 20 minutes for just the SS to finally die, with some damage caused by a few luth that had shown up, and the BS following it after another 10 minutes or so.
The rest of the UGTO ships seem mostly ok, they're not nearly immortal to ICC and can't shrug off a pack of luth Dreads to the face anymore just by camping a planet.
However, if the intended balance is that 2 ships of the previous hull size be required to kill one ship of a larger hull size, then that balance seems to be working with UGTO but most definitely not with ICC or Kluth. A single Battle Cruiser is capable of killing an ICC SS given enough time, and a pair of them from max pcannon range (meaning full falloff) can kill an ICC SS even running defense mode. Kluth stations die much easier than UGTO as well due to their lower armor, this is to be expected though since luth ships in general are more fragile than their Human counterparts.
ICC and Kluth stations need some improvements to bring them more in line with UGTO Stations, maybe splitting AHR and Chitinous armor and making Chit a standard all arc gadget on Kluth stations in exchange for the weapons that replaced the previously removed DC gadget. Not sure what to suggest for ICC Stations short of more shield HP, or aux shields that do something useful like boost regen rate instead of adding 1 arc of really weak shields.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Musiqsoulman
Grand Admiral
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: November 26, 2005
Posts: 209
From: Italy
| Posted: 2011-08-11 18:22
I find the new patch quite balanced.
Surely now the ICC has a fighting chance.
That new border cruiser of them is quite tough, I like it.
As far as UGTO goes, I'm really satisfied with the new Battle Dread, but it's basically the only usable ship we have left. It is more resistant and it fights well.
The new EAD is less powerful, but that's ok, it probably was a bit overpowered before.
Stations:
The new SS or BS are practically not usable anymore.
Missile ships:
MIssile Cruisers, or MDs are useless... why do you even leave them there? Never got a kill with them.
_________________
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-08-11 21:58
Quote:
|
On 2011-08-11 13:54, Talien wrote:
UGTO:
The only thing I can say for sure is stations can still tank too much damage. 1 SS+1 BS were able to keep up with repairs from planet defenses, 1 MD, several luth AI showing up randomly, and attacks by luth players while capturing most of Eps Eri, with only a Bomber Frigate for support. It eventually took a planet full of defense bases, a Hive, a Krill, a Siphon, and a MD to kill them.
1 SS+1 BS around a planet with a depot were able to repair as fast as a HC, BC, and SC did damage. After a MC and MD showed up it still took around 20 minutes for just the SS to finally die, with some damage caused by a few luth that had shown up, and the BS following it after another 10 minutes or so. |
|
Part of that is the weakness of planet defenses which I've been talking about for a while now. Even offense II bases can be tanked.
I'm wondering if depots and SS AOE repair are % based or flat-rate. I want to say they repair at a flat-rate, but if there's a % involved then the armor buff also buffs their rate of repair.
_________________
|
CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-12 03:26
on the "usless BS" Your looking at it as a stand alone ship, when its the vangaurd for the SS, for the hammer to the indictor. Its a station protector/killer.
And.... no comments on my suggestions one page back???
_________________
Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
339,144
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-08-12 03:50
Quote:
|
On 2011-08-12 03:26, *XO*Defiance wrote:
on the "usless BS" Your looking at it as a stand alone ship, when its the vangaurd for the SS, for the hammer to the indictor. Its a station protector/killer.
And.... no comments on my suggestions one page back???
|
|
Yup. As Talien noted. A BS/SS combo can be a tough nut to crack.
They're still tanks though. Maybe... maybe..... Just need their hull level to be reduced a notch perhaps. 
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-08-12 04:43 ]
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
pawnerz
Chief Marshal
Joined: September 03, 2010
Posts: 50
From: Somewhere Somehow
| Posted: 2011-08-12 04:03
I has plan, why dont we just have a massive "prestige"reset and no one will complain about X ship owning X ship. Lovesh.
[ This Message was edited by: Marshal pawnerZ {OmgHaxor!} on 2011-08-12 04:54 ]
_________________
Yet another forum thread by me about planets and AI >:D
|
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2011-08-12 06:53
Quote:
|
On 2011-08-12 04:03, Marshal pawnerZ {OmgHaxor!} wrote:
I has plan, why dont we just have a massive "prestige"reset and no one will complain about X ship owning X ship. Lovesh.
[ This Message was edited by: Marshal pawnerZ {OmgHaxor!} on 2011-08-12 04:54 ]
|
|
Probably the part where:
Gaining prestige is still easy enough once you get dreads that it doesn't matter and
The epic QQ marathon that would ensue from people losing the accumulation of nearly a decade worth of stats.
-Ent
_________________
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-08-12 08:43
Quote:
|
On 2011-08-12 04:03, Marshal pawnerZ {OmgHaxor!} wrote:
I has plan, why dont we just have a massive "prestige"reset and no one will complain about X ship owning X ship. Lovesh.
[ This Message was edited by: Marshal pawnerZ {OmgHaxor!} on 2011-08-12 04:54 ]
|
|
NO!!!!
Flash might just hang himself by a rope in some bathroom....
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2011-08-12 09:37
RE: UGTO Battle Dreadnought is the only useful ship left.
You must not have played UGTO much. Even from my sparse playing on UGTO I find ta there are more useful ships.
Game feels pretty balanced at the moment, just a shame so few players log in.
_________________
|
Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-08-12 09:43
Quote:
|
On 2011-08-12 08:43, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2011-08-12 04:03, Marshal pawnerZ {OmgHaxor!} wrote:
I has plan, why dont we just have a massive "prestige"reset and no one will complain about X ship owning X ship. Lovesh.
[ This Message was edited by: Marshal pawnerZ {OmgHaxor!} on 2011-08-12 04:54 ]
|
|
NO!!!!
Flash might just hang himself by a rope in some bathroom....
|
|
I lol'd. 
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/AzurePrower
|
CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-12 11:48
AI dont contruibute to planet capture %
just saying, thought this was supposed to be the end of one man capturing planets... now he can do it several different ways, and without even bombing... 
or make it so you have to have the majority of infantry on planet in order to start capture %
to combat the lone transport rusher, after 15 seconds of enemy infantry hitting the ground, audit their number compaired to friendly number. If its not within a certan % insta kill enemy infantry.
so if you drop 10 infantry on a planet that has 15, it will audit, and because enemy infantry is >= 75% of friendly infantry, they get to stay and fight.
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance on 2011-08-12 12:16 ]
_________________
Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
339,144
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-08-12 13:17
Quote:
| On 2011-08-11 11:47, *XO*Defiance wrote:
Other enhancement balancing suggestions. (these apply to all levels of enh at a relational scale)
Advanced Beam multiplier; +6% beam damage -3% Recharge rate
Advanced Weapon Multi; +6% Weapon damage -3% Recharge rate
Advanced defense upgrade; +6% defense -3% maneuvering and acceleration
Advanced maneuvering jets; +6% maneuvering -3% defense
Advanced weapon accelerator; +6% range -3% damage
Advanced weapon cool/cond; +6% recharge rate -3% damge
Advanced engine tuner; +6% speed -3% energy reserve |
|
This is something I'd imagine most people could agree on. Enhancements like Makkars should be reworked as well, it should either be made a unique, or given durability. +5% speed +5% thrust and +5% turning with a negligible -2% defense for a measly 800 credits is rather unbalancing. That's what, 80 cents each? That's 40% to speed, thrust, and turning for only -16% defense with a full loadout of them. That gives a Cruiser 28.2 speed, that's almost as fast as a FRIGATE and nearly as maneuverable as well.
8 of those on a UGTO ship makes it permanently faster and more maneuverable than an ICC ship of the same hull type, while still having more overall HP, better firepower, and the ability to rapidly negate the range advantage and get in close even to a ship one hull size smaller.
Slap them on a Kluth ship and you get something that can permanently outmaneuver an ICC or UGTO ship of the same hull type and keep on it's tail while it kills them.
Stick a set of them on an ICC ship and.....yeah. Unless it's a Dreadnought, good luck hitting it at anything more than point blank range with cannons, torps, or cores.
This is rapidly becoming THE enhancement to have as the bonuses far outweigh the penalty it gives, as well as the benefits you'd get from most other ehnancements, all for less than 1 hour's pay at minimum wage in the US for a full set of 8.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-08-12 13:47
Quote:
|
On 2011-08-12 13:17, Talien wrote:
Quote:
| On 2011-08-11 11:47, *XO*Defiance wrote:
Other enhancement balancing suggestions. (these apply to all levels of enh at a relational scale)
Advanced Beam multiplier; +6% beam damage -3% Recharge rate
Advanced Weapon Multi; +6% Weapon damage -3% Recharge rate
Advanced defense upgrade; +6% defense -3% maneuvering and acceleration
Advanced maneuvering jets; +6% maneuvering -3% defense
Advanced weapon accelerator; +6% range -3% damage
Advanced weapon cool/cond; +6% recharge rate -3% damge
Advanced engine tuner; +6% speed -3% energy reserve |
|
This is something I'd imagine most people could agree on. Enhancements like Makkars should be reworked as well, it should either be made a unique, or given durability. +5% speed +5% thrust and +5% turning with a negligible -2% defense for a measly 800 credits is rather unbalancing. That's what, 80 cents each? That's 40% to speed, thrust, and turning for only -16% defense with a full loadout of them. That gives a Cruiser 28.2 speed, that's almost as fast as a FRIGATE and nearly as maneuverable as well.
8 of those on a UGTO ship makes it permanently faster and more maneuverable than an ICC ship of the same hull type, while still having more overall HP, better firepower, and the ability to rapidly negate the range advantage and get in close even to a ship one hull size smaller.
Slap them on a Kluth ship and you get something that can permanently outmaneuver an ICC or UGTO ship of the same hull type and keep on it's tail while it kills them.
Stick a set of them on an ICC ship and.....yeah. Unless it's a Dreadnought, good luck hitting it at anything more than point blank range with cannons, torps, or cores.
This is rapidly becoming THE enhancement to have as the bonuses far outweigh the penalty it gives, as well as the benefits you'd get from most other ehnancements, all for less than 1 hour's pay at minimum wage in the US for a full set of 8.
|
|
You can stack Makkars??
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-08-12 14:16
Yes. They're non uniques, so you can shove as many as you can fit onto a ship.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
