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Fix Planet Defence. |
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2011-08-25 13:25
I don't see anything wrong with that, if someone wants to get themselves killed over and over by dropping troops on a planet with an enemy fleet in orbit to stop it from being captured, let them.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-25 15:33
you dont remember the kluth cloaked tranny rushers of befor?
would cloak get with rings touching planet, uncloak, drop jump away.
The new transports featrue a new and improved armor package. Would be even worse.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-08-25 18:12
No, I did almost forget about that, it'd be much simpler if cloak was canceled within 500 GU or so of a planet. It'd make it harder for griefers to camp SYs too.
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Red Shirt
Captain
Joined: January 04, 2012
Posts: 18
| Posted: 2012-01-12 01:43
Actually, I was thinking about this very subject earlier. I felt it odd that, as a noob, I was able to take down an entire planet's defenses in just a few passes with nothing more than a bomber frigate. However, what I saw was not so much a problem with the planet defense bases so much as the whole planet bombardment system; which I will get to shortly, but first the bases...
First, if PD does anything, well I'll just have to take your word on it. I've seen no weapon graphic come into play besides the red flak effect, regardless of what kind of bases (size, faction, type) are firing. I'm not saying it is broken; I'm just saying it looks broken because I have no visual confirmation of it actually doing anything. The only clue I get is that sometimes my bombs seem to "miss" the target and do no damage. Is that PD at work, or just a bug? I am left to wonder.
Second, there is too much interdependency in all planetary structures, defense bases included. Meaning that knocking out anything quickly shuts down everything, again defense bases included. I quickly learned that I didn't have to even target enemy bases themselves. I could land bombs anywhere and before long their entire defense grid would collapse due to lack of power, lack of technology, or lack of people. The lack of people is a major issue, as defense bases seem to always be the first things abandoned whenever there is a worker shortage. And since people start vanishing ("evacuating") from the moment of the first bomb landing, that angle is just a bonus win top of whatever else I was aiming at - usually a tech facility or a power facility. It does not matter, really. I could just bomb their infantry and the population will soon vanish to the point where all their bases are shut down within just a few minutes.
The solution is obvious: Reduction, or even elimination, of all this excessive interdependency for defense bases. I can see needing 80+ technology to build a top tier base, but keeping it needing almost as much to keep it running is an unneeded weakness. Why can't defense bases be crewed by infantry instead of populace? Seems that they stand their ground a lot better, if nothing else. Power is a tricky subject, but not unfixable. Instead of a "power 25" base shutting down entirely when the power dips to only 24, have it just do 4% less damage (100%/25 power = 4% damage per available power.) if it's a single power point short. Only if the power cuts out completely does the base become completely inoperable.
Also, reduction in people vanishing at the first bomb dropping would help keep the infrastructure from collapsing so fast, too.
Now as to the bases themselves... I have some ideas for that, too. Redo/redact the bases into three types not too different than what exists now:
Point Defense would use the animation/effect of Chemical Lasers, and reach out to around 250 or so. Fast fire rate and, like lasers, never miss. Downside is low, low damage output. Target priorities would be Troop Pods, then Bombs, and finally Ships.
Ship Defense would use the PPC/EMP sparkly effect and reach out to around 750 or so. Medium fire rate, medium damage, high projectile speed. Downside is that, like the weapons it borrows it's visuals from, it could be dodged by a small and/or fast moving ship concentrating on evasion. Target priorities would be Troop Pods and the Ships (does not target Bombs at all).
Siege Defense would use the "Core Weapon" effect and reach out to 1000 or more. Basically a land-based version of the UGTO Weapon Platform, slow fire rate of a single, medium speed non-homing projectile that explodes for massive damage (reduces over range) Good for keeping heavy ships at bay but small and/or fast ships would only catch the (much reduced) edge of the splash field. Only targets Ships - does not try to hit Troop Pods or Bombs at all.
So right off the bat you have three different visual effects and three different weapon speeds. Most importantly, all three types of base would be equally useful.
Let's consider some build potentials:
The Balanced Build - Uses a mix of all three, and thus can engage targets of all types and ranges equally. Strong point: Equally effective against all types of attack. Weak point: Equally ineffective against all types of attack (ergo, could be overwhelmed by an attacker concentrating on fighting at only one range).
The Point Defense Build - By packing everything into point defense, your planet is nearly immune to both bombs and invasions. The catch? You can't fight back for crap, and eventually something will get through if you can't make them leave.
The Death Star Build - Stacking up on siege guns can wreck havoc on passing enemy mega ships, sure, but like it's namesake would be highly vulnerable to fast moving strike bombers getting under your gun's range too quickly.
Now some have mentioned missile bases. I like this idea, but it needs to be done right. My proposal is to add (back) missile bases, giving them long range, devastating missiles that can tear up nearly anything that comes into range. The catch, however, is that they could only target ships that have been tagged by a Scout ship's Beacon, first. No tag, no missile. That way you could have a base that could smash things at all ranges equally, but actual human player assistance/interaction would be required for it to work.
And finally... some other building ideas to consider:
Bunker - Acts to protect infantry stacked in it's location. Infantry on that spot cannot be damaged by bombs until the bunker is destroyed. In infantry versus infantry fights, a unit with a Defend order and on a Bunker node would have it's fighting strength multiplied significantly. AI would automatically send infantry to available bunkers in event of attack on infantry.
Comms Dish - Increases speed & number of friendly AI reinforcements showing up to defend the planet (and range that they are summoned from). Effectiveness varies depending on what your AI fleet level is like in that region.
Hospital - Protects against bioweapons & plagues, also has a 15% chance to return a "destroyed" friendly infantry unit into play after 60 seconds (one chance per unit lost). Bombing a hospital would cost prestige, not gain it. Don't be a war criminal!
Underground - Applied to a preexisting structure, reduces it's effectiveness by 20% (So a power plant that produced 40 energy would now only produce 32, for example) but also reduces bombardment damage by 90%. Could not be applied to defense bases, though (they need to be able to fire up, after all).
Maskirova - Allow up to 8 "free" spots per planet for the players to build fake structures on. These can look like anything else, except that they don't actually do anything except act as bomb magnets by fooling attackers into thinking that they're real. Would not count against the actual 31 item limit, and take double damage from all attacks. ("WTF? Six shield generators?")
Clone Vats - Doubles production speed of all Barracks on a planet.
Enhanced Shipyard - Combines the effects of a Shipyard, Depot and Starport into a single structure. Tech level 100, though.
GalactiNet Network - Increases Research by 20% of the total of all other friendly planets in the system (and 5% of neutral and enemy ones, too, via hacking).
That's all for now!
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2012-01-12 05:31
Necro thread Level : 35
-Ent
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ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom)
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: March 09, 2002
Posts: 363
From: Earth
| Posted: 2012-01-12 07:12
Planet def should be increased double the strength that it is now...
Think about it .....
Ai can create a problem for a planet def by numbers alone....
if 4 Ai ships are ordered to goto any planet even with uber def setup
and you add say only 4 players that planet has so many things to try to shoot at that it will make the players seem to be stronger hens making it seem too easy to cap planets.....
maybe remove Ai combat ships entirely or make planet def double in strength....
in 483 there were no Ai combat ships like there are now....
just a thought
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2012-01-12 08:31
+1 to the fake structures idea and a -1 to the amount of lag the lasers/core/other weaps on every planet in every system in every cluster would be firing due to one ai flying passed if they changed the def bases but everything else seems good tbh
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Painfulangel
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 26, 2009
Posts: 188
From: Exathra
| Posted: 2012-01-12 08:33
before planets were a problem they could spam fleets , they were strong and where the only trannies that could get past were luth but even then their transport pods got destroyed
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marco ramius
Admiral
Joined: October 16, 2010
Posts: 23
| Posted: 2012-01-12 12:21
look at how star wars:empire at war deals with planets, planets would have specific buffs to nearby planetary clusters, for example: an ocean planet would give a buff to all planets controlled in a star system of increased res production, or a terran planet would buff inf production(i.e. inf production time cut by 50%) or an arid planet would buff planet defenses by 10 to 25%.......just some examples but the EAW model, it seems to me, would make all planet types more relavent to DS... and who cares if lucasarts did it 1st, if it works for them it seems that it help DS too.......
just my 2 creds worth
*PEACE*
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marco ramius
Admiral
Joined: October 16, 2010
Posts: 23
| Posted: 2012-01-12 12:33
+1 to what red shirt said too
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2012-01-12 13:44
I like def as it is. If it was any more powerful, I probably couldn't jump anywhere for fear of going near a planet.
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Boerenkool
Marshal
Joined: December 18, 2007
Posts: 218
| Posted: 2012-01-12 16:04
defense got changed for several reasons, 1 of em was server performance, other was luth and icc qq. cause if u look closely, its mostly ugto that will prefer defending a planet over skirmishing in mid-space. Luth and icc got bored of attacking ugto at overpowered planet clusters. Planet defense got tuned down a bit, allowing luth and icc to get well in range of an enemy and shoot it.
stronger planet defense upsets balance in a way, cause some factions use planet defense to aid them more then others.
cloud bombing was fun, but made all players that actually fly an engy once in a while, very pissed. with people finding engineering unrewarding alrdy, cloud bombing not the way to go.
i do agree i havent seen a defense or pd base shoot down enemy missles or pods lately. The PD capabilty needs to be reactivated. This will make cloud bombing style usefull to get some bombs trough enemy defense, without reactivating the huge damage output. Only problem is ai. they can be send to defend the planet disrupting a nice bombing run no problem. I been thinking of an order delay, that will make ai respond 1 minute later. Makes them less influental while still maintaining their use to support fleet wars or a lone warrior.
and for the love of god, i mean Jack, limit the ai respawn rate to a certain number per hour instead of the old failed system of a daily limit. Give a CM ability to choose the next spawned ai by available "ai points". maybe connect available ai points to available resources? but this last part might just be crazy talk way to far in the future
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Entil-Zha the Starkiller
Chief Marshal
Ravenous Wolfpack Clan
Joined: May 02, 2005
Posts: 261
From: Arizona - Where DST is a myth
| Posted: 2012-01-12 17:02
Quote:
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On 2011-08-16 13:18, JBud wrote:
I agree, with the current system, planets should be like doomslingers of 483
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Death Stars.....ESPECIALLY the ones with K'Luth defense bases, particularly the Defense 3 ones....get too close and they'd burn through your armor REAL fast...
As for the ICC ones....massive cloud bombing was the only real way to deal with those ones...
UGTO ones...a mix of both worlds...
Too bad though the Death Star Era was also plagued by Bomb-a-holics...which I must admit I partook...
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Crim
Fleet Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 16, 2003
Posts: 1336
| Posted: 2012-01-12 17:04
Quote:
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On 2012-01-12 17:02, Entil-Zha the Starkiller wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-08-16 13:18, JBud wrote:
I agree, with the current system, planets should be like doomslingers of 483
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Death Stars.....ESPECIALLY the ones with K'Luth defense bases, particularly the Defense 3 ones....get too close and they'd burn through your armor REAL fast...
As for the ICC ones....massive cloud bombing was the only real way to deal with those ones...
UGTO ones...a mix of both worlds...
Too bad though the Death Star Era was also plagued by Bomb-a-holics...which I must admit I partook...
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When you said 'Death Star' I got my hopes up of old ECM forts that only the crazy where willing to bomb..
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2012-01-13 05:04
Offically defences got nerfed due to lag (which i might add missles caused most of defences lag generating abilitys couple that with icc doing what icc do best responding with missle dreads)
Sadly This nerf only really happened after I turned zoca into a death star using solor generators instead of actual power plants. What can I say icc had to bring Extra Missle dreads due to the excessive missle and pd amounts Couple that with the design getting copyed onto all barrens in the system and yeah lag fest.
Just incase anyone forgot the reason.
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