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[FAQ
Forum Index » » English (General) » » Suggestion: Ship size balance
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 Author Suggestion: Ship size balance
Thernhoghas
Grand Admiral
Exathra Alliance Fleet


Joined: September 18, 2010
Posts: 243
From: somewhere in Germany
Posted: 2011-08-17 15:49   
You still don't understand it -.-

I'm outta here; you have proven to be as stubborn as a wall of Bedrock without even noticing how your suggestion is absolutly unnecessary.

o/
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light


Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
Posted: 2011-08-17 16:55   
yea.. im done as well..

NO ONE THINKS THIS IS A GOOD IDEA.
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339,144

Blackjack [DBL]
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light


Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 344
From: The land of venomous reptiles.
Posted: 2011-08-17 19:26   
Quote:

On 2011-08-17 12:20, Phoebuzz wrote:

Currently when flying a small ship, even when you win, you lose.



uuh, the biggest secret to fighting a dred is to not let it hit you, if you can master that you can seriously hurt said dred with almost no damage. This is supposed to be a Multiplayer game, teamwork is the key to success.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
Posted: 2011-08-17 19:36   
Quote:

On 2011-08-17 15:27, Phoebuzz wrote:
No they can't. It's mathematical.
You can be fooled into thinking you can, but, piloting a scout/frigate/dessie, you're still an insignificant gnat that would be far more effective in a dread/cruiser.
(Cue the pointless and irrelevant reply about specialist ships being useful.)



Tell that to the handful of Scouts that were rampaging through Luyten earlier today hulling Dreadnoughts with impunity. People who rely purely on numbers or "bigger=better" are what the rest of us like to call easy targets.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2011-08-17 20:59   

Every ship does have its role, on the human factions.

Phoebuzz is probably looking at it from a Kluth perspective. On Kluth, there's almost no reason to be in anything smaller than a dread... unless it's for a specific role....
- Bomber (Cruiser, Frigate)
- Dictor (Cruiser)
- Build/Mine/Supp ..... the usual support ships
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light


Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
Posted: 2011-08-17 21:17   
then he needs to put his noodle to work adressing the specific points of his perspective...

not trying to change everyone. Expecialy when ICC and UGTO are fine.

Ive flown plenty of kluth small ships. Trust me they are better now than they have EVER been since i started in 09. But i dont know what kluth players want out of their ships...

if this is your point, then adress the specific point.. dont be so vague
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Phoebuzz
Grand Admiral

Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 110
Posted: 2011-08-18 06:02   
Quote:

On 2011-08-17 19:26, Perseverance *FCA* wrote:
Quote:

On 2011-08-17 12:20, Phoebuzz wrote:
Currently when flying a small ship, even when you win, you lose.


uuh, the biggest secret to fighting a dred is to not let it hit you, if you can master that you can seriously hurt said dred with almost no damage. This is supposed to be a Multiplayer game, teamwork is the key to success.


As I said. In small ships, even when you win, you lose.
Not letting the dread hit you is not intrinsically useful, it just makes you feel like you achieved something while you're actually not doing much.

Quote:

On 2011-08-17 19:36, Talien wrote:
Quote:

On 2011-08-17 15:27, Phoebuzz wrote:
No they can't. It's mathematical.
You can be fooled into thinking you can, but, piloting a scout/frigate/dessie, you're still an insignificant gnat that would be far more effective in a dread/cruiser.
(Cue the pointless and irrelevant reply about specialist ships being useful.)


Tell that to the handful of Scouts that were rampaging through Luyten earlier today hulling Dreadnoughts with impunity. People who rely purely on numbers or "bigger=better" are what the rest of us like to call easy targets.


Rampaging?
Hulling dreads?

What would you say dreads are doing EVERY DAY in the MV? They are both rampaging and do more than hull dreads, they kill them. And it takes far less dreads than scouts to be a threat.
Just because a few scout can out DPS a dread's armor regen, does not make them useful or competitive.

Again, even if those scout "won" against those dreads, they still didn't achieve anything that wouldn't be considered completely banal by the same number of dreads.
"Hey guys, yesterday in Luyten we were piloting a handful of dreads and managed to hull a few dreads. Totally awesome!"
A single dread can literally hull another dread in a few seconds.

Just because you surpassed your own expected scout performance does not mean that performance wasn't still vastly underwhelming.

Quote:

On 2011-08-17 21:17, *XO*Defiance{CM7} wrote:
not trying to change everyone. Expecialy when ICC and UGTO are fine.

Ive flown plenty of kluth small ships. Trust me they are better now than they have EVER been since i started in 09. But i dont know what kluth players want out of their ships...

if this is your point, then adress the specific point.. dont be so vague


Yes, I am aware that small ships are better now than they've been for a long time, but definitively not 'EVER'.

Quote:

On 2011-08-17 20:59, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Every ship does have its role, on the human factions.

Phoebuzz is probably looking at it from a Kluth perspective. On Kluth, there's almost no reason to be in anything smaller than a dread... unless it's for a specific role....
- Bomber (Cruiser, Frigate)
- Dictor (Cruiser)
- Build/Mine/Supp ..... the usual support ships


Yes, I am aware that human factions regress, as a coping mechanism, to using small ships after their been defeated or being obviously faced with a superior fleet.
Small ships, because they have a better ability to avoid direct confrontation, can avoid damage more effectively and also incur far lower pres loss when destroyed, are safer to field against a larger number of enemies.

K'luths can just, of course, cloak.

Quote:

On 2011-08-17 21:17, *XO*Defiance{CM7} wrote:
then he needs to put his noodle to work adressing the specific points of his perspective...


The issue here is that nothing, NOTHING, that any of you said is even relevant to the suggestion.
Every, single, opinion, statement, and 'fact', that you all brought forward, I already knew and expected before I even posted this thread.

YOU do not understand how the game works, and how under-powered small ships currently are.
Just because a few of you cannot even understand basic game balancing concept, does not make me wrong. What it does, is a thread filled with moronic replies and my pointless attempts to correct them.


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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
Posted: 2011-08-18 07:19   
Okay, since apparently nobody can see the wood for the trees (or something, I have no idea what the actual arguments here are), let's attack it from a different angle.

Suggestion: Increase energy regeneration for smaller ships.

Effects:

1: Smaller ships can fight for longer without running out of energy.

More regeneration = more endurance = longer fight time.

However, well-piloted ships (i.e. no spacebar mashing, firing when chances are high of a hit, using the right weapons at the right time, good throttle control) will not typically have energy issues. Some ships, particularly destroyers and smaller, can fight virtually forever without running out of energy; certainly longer than it takes for larger ships to run out of energy and retreat. And a cruiser can, given the right circumstances and a bit of luck, practically kill a dreadnaught before it runs out of energy.

If your energy reserves last forever, improving your energy regeneration achieves nothing. Doubling your fighting time gives you forever times two, which is still forever.

Similarly, if the enemy runs out of energy and retreats, it doesn't matter how long YOU can last as long as you can outlast the enemy, which is what usually happens. Plus the game is generally designed such that you want two smaller ships to take on a larger ship, so not quite being able to kill a larger ship with a smaller one is in line with that philosophy regardless.

2: Increased energy regeneration lets you fight for just as long as before, but with more spacebar mashing.

This misses the point. You're meant to be thinking about when to fire and which weapons to fire in order to hit the enemy. Part of the skill of the game is laying down consistent fire and not wasting energy by firing only those weapons which are likely to hit and deal significant damage. This means only firing cannons when the enemy cannot evade them, using torpedoes when up-close and you can detonate them close to the target, and using beams when you're close-in and can keep the enemy in the arc of the beams until they finish firing.

I, personally, have had ships last for very long periods of time energy-wise by holding off on firing everything constantly. Since I'm only firing shots that would miss otherwise, my damage output doesn't suffer and I can keep fighting for longer thanks to not wasting energy. Increasing energy regeneration would render these skills far less useful in comparison to the "unskilled" tactic of just hitting spacebar constantly, the penalties of which (wasted energy) being softened by the ability to get energy back quickly.

3: Increased energy regeneration lets you fight for just as long as before, but at a higher speed.

This rewards those skilled players that can already fight forever, since they can fight forever at a higher top speed, making it easier to evade enemy fire, making them harder to kill because everything will miss them.

Now I don't have a particular objection to this, aside from feeling that the current combat speeds are generally acceptable when seeking a balance between speed and energy regeneration. Obviously when flying smaller ships I would LOVE to be able to fly at top speed all the time, but when flying AGAINST smaller ships I wish they would sit still so that I could shoot them to death. I see no pressing reason to adjust the current state of affairs since I am yet to see smaller ships having to slow to a crawl three seconds into a battle, nor do I see them flying at absolute maximum speed 100% of the time.

K'luth caveat:
This doesn't apply 100% to K'luth, since the essence of their design philosophy is to strike quickly, fire all of their weapons in a massive barrage of death (draining their batteries in the process, since high damage = high energy usage), and then cloak in order to recover. As a result, K'luth ships are not designed to conserve energy and last for long periods in a fight; instead, they are very very good at spending all of that energy at once and then having the luxury of recovering it at a very high rate by cruising slowly under cloak. In comparison, other ships can't regenerate as quickly because if they slow down they get shot at. K'luth ships just don't use the same tactics as human ships.

TL;DR: Smaller ships can last for aaaages when piloted well. At best, they last forever. This means that increasing their regeneration either does nothing (can't last longer than forever), reduces the skills required to fight effectively (a skilled player will already be dealing maximum damage by firing only the weapons that will hit, requiring no additional energy to last forever), or make smaller ships harder to hit (skilled pilots will last forever at a higher speed), which I feel is not required at this point in time.

So, my question is: Which of those three issues was it that the original post was meant to address?
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Phoebuzz
Grand Admiral

Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 110
Posted: 2011-08-18 09:20   
Gejaheline, although you pretty much get the idea and the suggestion, you are systematically falling back to the "energy problem" argument.

I'm going to say this to clarify the "energy problem":
No ship in the game can currently run out of energy, it's simply not possible.
An EAD or Krill smashing space bar will never run out of energy.
Why?
Because every ship has the ability to generate energy in combat.
Yes, ships can run out of battery energy, but there's always that energy coming from your engines and aux. gens, even if you don't see it.
It doesn't matter if your battery is empty, at 50% or full. ALL of your energy comes from your energy generators (engines and aux. gens), all the energy in your battery comes from your energy generators, and the only way you can't run out of battery is if you use less energy than you're generating.
That means that every ship right now can potentially last forever in combat; It's just a question of how little you use your guns.

No matter how little energy a ship has, you'll always be able to fire your weapons even less. Being able to 'not shoot your guns' doesn't make a ship just fine energy wise. And being able to run of battery energy doesn't mean a ship has "energy problems".

"Energy problem" is just a player perception problem. EAD and Krill are two of the ships with the most energy, but also two of the ships with the most PERCEIVED energy problems. It's just perception. It's meaningless.

My suggestion has NOTHING to do with perceived "energy problems". It never has. It never will. I've always stated that it never has. And I always will.



To reply to your specific points:

"2: Increased energy regeneration lets you fight for just as long as before, but with more spacebar mashing."

Spacebar mashing is, by nature, pointless and a waste of energy. If some players will just waste all the extra energy, the change will effectively not change anything for those players.

"1: Smaller ships can fight for longer without running out of energy.
3: Increased energy regeneration lets you fight for just as long as before, but at a higher speed.
4: K'luth caveat
"
That's mostly correct. But as explained in the rant above, it's not about 'running out of energy', that's not possible.
1. It's about allowing smaller ships to fire guns more often in combat.
3: Potentially move faster so they can more often be in position to fire their guns effectively in combat.
4: Regenerate energy faster between engagements.

All about increasing the overall damage that small ships do over time, without directly increasing their burst damage or short term DPS.

Examples:
Small Hit'n'Run K'luth ships won't be able to do, significantly, more damage in one hit before they have to run. But they'll be able to execute those hit a bit more often.

Small line ships will be able to fire their guns more frequently while maintaining their energy equilibrium. But if they go all out (*SMASH*), they won't be able to do any more damage than before, they'll just last a bit longer, and take a bit less time to regenerate their energy out of battle.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
Posted: 2011-08-18 11:00   
Quote:

On 2011-08-18 06:02, Phoebuzz wrote:
Rampaging?
Hulling dreads?

What would you say dreads are doing EVERY DAY in the MV? They are both rampaging and do more than hull dreads, they kill them. And it takes far less dreads than scouts to be a threat.
Just because a few scout can out DPS a dread's armor regen, does not make them useful or competitive.

Again, even if those scout "won" against those dreads, they still didn't achieve anything that wouldn't be considered completely banal by the same number of dreads.
"Hey guys, yesterday in Luyten we were piloting a handful of dreads and managed to hull a few dreads. Totally awesome!"
A single dread can literally hull another dread in a few seconds.

Just because you surpassed your own expected scout performance does not mean that performance wasn't still vastly underwhelming.



The point of smaller ships isn't to do as much damage as larger ships, it's to harrass enemies, and even kill them when you're flying several of them as a group. You lose nothing for dying in a Scout or Frigate while the enemy gains next to nothing for killing you, and at the same time it's also much harder FOR them to kill you. Your analogy of a group of bricks being more effective is the illusion, you fly a group of Dreadnoughts into a planetary Interdictor field to assault an enemy fleet and you're most likely going to get killed, where a group of Scouts has a good chance of surviving simply because they're next to impossible to hit with anything but beams. It's not just about hoping you gain more prestige for the damage you do than you lose when you die like a lot of people seem to think.


Quote:

The issue here is that nothing, NOTHING, that any of you said is even relevant to the suggestion.
Every, single, opinion, statement, and 'fact', that you all brought forward, I already knew and expected before I even posted this thread.

YOU do not understand how the game works, and how under-powered small ships currently are.
Just because a few of you cannot even understand basic game balancing concept, does not make me wrong. What it does, is a thread filled with moronic replies and my pointless attempts to correct them.




.....So you want smaller ships to always gain more energy than they use unless they're going top speed? This would make no difference in their combat effectiveness, as most smaller ships barely drain energy while firing and going top speed aside from beam heavy ships and a few luth ships that have ELF instead of aux gens, and for most smaller ships there's no NEED to constantly go top speed. Just because you don't know how to use them properly doesn't mean there's something wrong with them and they should be changed in some way to meet your own personal vision of how they should work, they're fine as they are aside from (again) the few luth ships that have ELF instead of aux gens, but that's a different issue entirely.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
Posted: 2011-08-18 11:16   
Quote:

On 2011-08-18 09:20, Phoebuzz wrote:
That's mostly correct. But as explained in the rant above, it's not about 'running out of energy', that's not possible.
1. It's about allowing smaller ships to fire guns more often in combat.
3: Potentially move faster so they can more often be in position to fire their guns effectively in combat.
4: Regenerate energy faster between engagements.



As I actually said while I was making the points you are addressing here:

1: I can always fire the weapons I need to fire at the maximum possible rate in combat. I do not need more energy, because I cannot fire my guns any faster without firing them at times when I would miss or otherwise waste shots.

2: Since energy gain is a function of speed, the actual speed gain here for a given regeneration speed isn't that huge. Besides, from my personal experience sheer speed and lack of energy are rarely issues when getting into a good position; in fact, many ships have to slow down once they are in a good position in order to avoid overshooting or turning in too broad a circle.

3: Is regeneration between engagements really that much of an issue? It takes perhaps a minute or two to regenerate energy, assuming you've somehow emptied your battery. I usually find that it's regenerated before, say, armour and shields have replenished unless I'm using a destroyer or below, in which case I'm probably around about full on energy regardless.

[EDIT] Typo corrections.

[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2011-08-19 07:42 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral

Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
Posted: 2011-08-18 13:56   
@phoebuzz

If all ships have INFINITE POWAH, then why do small ships need more energy when they already have INFINITE POWAH!?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2011-08-18 22:44   

So does Phoe want small ships to;
- have the exact same energy levels as dreads to start with?
- Or have it recharge faster than it already does?
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Blackjack [DBL]
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light


Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 344
From: The land of venomous reptiles.
Posted: 2011-08-19 00:04   
Quote:


I'm going to say this to clarify the "energy problem":
No ship in the game can currently run out of energy, it's simply not possible.
An EAD or Krill smashing space bar will never run out of energy.
Why?
Because every ship has the ability to generate energy in combat.
their energy out of battle.



Both of those ships in your arguement run out of energy in 6-8 salvos when standing still they need to manage energy to be effective. they dont run out totally but their energy pool is depleted and shield regen and weapon recharges are dramatically slower
edit: removed an analogy
[ This Message was edited by: Perseverance *FCA* on 2011-08-19 00:05 ]
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Names I used: Da Bes Loser, Perseverance, Loyalty.

Bombg
Admiral

Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
Posted: 2011-08-19 00:31   
You mean you want a balanced ship layout instead of the current dread/station spam?


Insanity!!
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