| Author |
Defy UGTO Combat Log |
Lithium
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 29, 2003
Posts: 109
|  Posted: 2011-08-27 05:36
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 04:51, Whiterin wrote:
Yesterday, I finally broke down, and headed over to the UGTO camp after being the only ICC on for several hours. I moved from an ICC HC, to a UGTO BC, with similar enh. I must say... the UGTO BC, hands down... does WAY more damage. Not just a little... like WAY WAY WAY more damage then the ICC HC. It also seems to be able to take quite a bit more damage then the ICC HC could as well. So far, the only downsides I see are:
-This BC manuvers pretty slow compared to the HC... but hasn't caused too many issues in battle yet.
-Longer wait time once you have to retreat from battle if there are no supplys or depots around. This doesn't cause too much an issue in actual battle though.
Over all, the BC can take much more of a beating, and put out several times the amount of damage an equal ship of ICC can.
As everyone probably knows, I really like ICC. I would prefer to play ICC, but like so many other players have had to do... I have moved to one of the other factions because I am fed up with the inbalance.
Since moving to UGTO, I am absolutely amazed at the difference in damage between ICC and UGTO. I was also amazed at how much my BC could tank from Kluth. In the HC, if a Kluth jumped me, I would basically just mash the shield rotate to the arc they were firing at and hope I could get 300+ gu away from them in time... often times leaving me with less then 10% shields on all arcs. I have already been jumped several times by Kluth in the BC. The first few I paniced... thinking without shield rotation... I would die instantly. NOPE. The first time I still had 50% shields left on the outer shield and 100% on the second ON ONE ARC... from an attack that would have left me with around 20-30% shields on ALL arcs.
It's funny... people keep telling me how ICC is fine, and everything is balanced... but every time I actually play Kluth or UGTO... it just solidifies my opinion that ICC is grossly underpowered even more.
I used to hate Claws in my HC, because often times... I would end up getting pretty damaged from them. I was jumped probably half a dozen times by a claw in my BC yesterday... and I think it ended up running every time... after just a minute or so. Something that NEVER happened on my HC.
And for the few people that said I should play UGTO to see how terrible it was with their energy... wtf are you talking about? The BC does better on energy then my HC did... and I had a PFE on the HC.
tl;dr
ICC is grossly underpowered, and playing the other factions is only solidifying that knowledge for me.
Staying UGTO until it's fixed... even though I hate how UGTO ships look and hate having to kill people I am used to being faction with.
Also, to the ICC people I have killed. Sorry. 
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You were just hitting AI ships.
And ... weren't you getting killed by a border cruiser that not AI?
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Whiterin
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2007
Posts: 146
| Posted: 2011-08-27 06:06
Not just against AI... and no, not really. The only time that kinda happened was a BC and a SC vs me. The SC died. Both non AI.
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Hakketak
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 301
| Posted: 2011-08-27 06:20
isnt it normal that a dreadnought cant hit its weapons on a dessie cause the dessie to fast? a dread can never kill a dessie, unless the dessie got to close.
So trying to balance an icc dread vs an ugto dessie seems strange to me. if i where to take my shell though, i think the dread would have no problem tanking its shields...
I think the main problem with the gunboat is the particle cannons. PC in general rlly seems to b very damaging, compared to psi or rail. Its not a huge margin, but yes there is small difference in icc combat destroyer, the kluth shell, and the ugto gunboat. The new superfast armor reps of standard ugto armor also doesnt help...0,5% per seconds seems a lot for me...its as fast/faster then luth armor without ahr. next to a planet its impossible to kill an enemy dessie, since they rep from 50% to 100% hull in 5 seconds.
I noticed in 1 on 1 fight vs the gunboat, that its usually the lasers that damage me most, bacause they track my path. Also it keeps damaging me when im behind the enemy dessie, so 180 degree arch? Maybe 3rd fix would b, making the gunboat weapon/laser archs the same as that of an icc combat dessie or a shell
in short:
weapon archs
armor rep rate
particle cannon strenght
is what makes the gunboat stronger then our dessies of the same class
[ This Message was edited by: HakkeTak on 2011-08-27 06:56 ]
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-08-27 06:26
The difference between Particle Cannon and Railgun damage is nullified at anything over 280 gu~. At that range, Railguns do the same or more.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-27 09:29
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 06:26, Pantheon wrote:
The difference between Particle Cannon and Railgun damage is nullified at anything over 280 gu~. At that range, Railguns do the same or more.
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This may.. may... just maybe may have been true befor your changes to weapon damage... Now there is an aditional 20% difference in PCannon and Rail guns..
the range at which Rails equals Pcannon is more like 600gu now. But you cannot actualy hit anything at that range so... Cheers 
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Viskel the Muffin Muncher
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 13, 2009
Posts: 38
From: Your Fridge
| Posted: 2011-08-27 11:02
As Defiance said. It's not very useful to have the guns equal out at a range where they can't hit anymore. If you're in range to hit or be hit in UGTO vs ICC combat, than you're close enough that UGTO PCs do more damage than ICC Rails.
It's very very clear to anyone who plays ICC, that UGTO have a huge advantage in firepower, and a MASSIVE advantage in armor. That armor repairs way too fast, for one. It's not organic armor, it shouldn't repair period.
Now add on the amount of hitpoints that armor has.
Now add on that every single UGTO player will either go with weapon enhancements, or full blue defense enhancements. If you think UGTO armor isn't a problem, go up against any EAD that is full defense enhanced. An AD, which should stand up to it in a fight, will lose. It'll lose in defense and firepower, and the ICC don't have any enhancements that super-enhance them, like defense enhancements do for the UGTO.
It is very clearly not balanced. And yes, I've tested all three races, thoroughly.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-08-27 11:40
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 06:20, HakkeTak wrote:
isnt it normal that a dreadnought cant hit its weapons on a dessie cause the dessie to fast? a dread can never kill a dessie, unless the dessie got to close.
So trying to balance an icc dread vs an ugto dessie seems strange to me. if i where to take my shell though, i think the dread would have no problem tanking its shields...
I think the main problem with the gunboat is the particle cannons. PC in general rlly seems to b very damaging, compared to psi or rail. Its not a huge margin, but yes there is small difference in icc combat destroyer, the kluth shell, and the ugto gunboat. The new superfast armor reps of standard ugto armor also doesnt help...0,5% per seconds seems a lot for me...its as fast/faster then luth armor without ahr. next to a planet its impossible to kill an enemy dessie, since they rep from 50% to 100% hull in 5 seconds.
I noticed in 1 on 1 fight vs the gunboat, that its usually the lasers that damage me most, bacause they track my path. Also it keeps damaging me when im behind the enemy dessie, so 180 degree arch? Maybe 3rd fix would b, making the gunboat weapon/laser archs the same as that of an icc combat dessie or a shell
in short:
weapon archs
armor rep rate
particle cannon strenght
is what makes the gunboat stronger then our dessies of the same class
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I wasn't suggesting balancing anything with small vs large ships, just pointing out falloff isn't much of a factor when it has no effect on whether a single ship 2 hull sizes smaller is able to breach the defenses of 2 ships 2 hull sizes larger. The way the game is said to be balanced is that you need 2 ships 1 hull size smaller to have a good chance of defeating a ship 1 hull size larger, but where UGTO is concerned this is not the case. They have unlimited cannon ammo and thus damage falloff is effectively nullified because they can fire forever from outside of optimal range and still cause enough damage to force larger ships to retreat or even kill them outright if they don't. Kluth small ships don't have the luxury of being able to fire cannons from 600+ range and are less maneuverable thus they will take more hits, and ICC don't have the luxury of unlimited ammo and will run out of firepower and be forced to leave and reload.
A Shell can also whittle away an ICC Dreadnought's defenses and eventually kill it with it's cannons alone given enough time, though it will take quite a while longer since it has less cannons and more torps/beams than a Gunboat or CD. However, due to it's larger size and lower maneuverability it generally won't last long enough to do a whole lot of damage before it needs to cloak and repair if it's attacking a Combat Dread.
From what I've observed standard armor repairs slower than active shields regenerate without defense mode, but not by as much as you'd think, and luth armor without AHR is much slower than both but that shouldn't be a problem since AHR has a lot of ammo and you'll probably run out of torps first.
Most ICC/UGTO ships have 2 full arc beams for PD coverage where most luth ships have more weapons in exchange for worse arcs, I'd guess it's because they don't really need a lot of PD coverage since cloaking breaks missile/fighter locks and missile ships are usually the first to die vs luth anyway.
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 06:20, HakkeTak wrote:
isnt it normal that a dreadnought cant hit its weapons on a dessie cause the dessie to fast? a dread can never kill a dessie, unless the dessie got to close.
So trying to balance an icc dread vs an ugto dessie seems strange to me. if i where to take my shell though, i think the dread would have no problem tanking its shields...
I think the main problem with the gunboat is the particle cannons. PC in general rlly seems to b very damaging, compared to psi or rail. Its not a huge margin, but yes there is small difference in icc combat destroyer, the kluth shell, and the ugto gunboat. The new superfast armor reps of standard ugto armor also doesnt help...0,5% per seconds seems a lot for me...its as fast/faster then luth armor without ahr. next to a planet its impossible to kill an enemy dessie, since they rep from 50% to 100% hull in 5 seconds.
I noticed in 1 on 1 fight vs the gunboat, that its usually the lasers that damage me most, bacause they track my path. Also it keeps damaging me when im behind the enemy dessie, so 180 degree arch? Maybe 3rd fix would b, making the gunboat weapon/laser archs the same as that of an icc combat dessie or a shell
in short:
weapon archs
armor rep rate
particle cannon strenght
is what makes the gunboat stronger then our dessies of the same class
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I wasn't suggesting balancing anything with small vs large ships, just pointing out falloff isn't much of a factor when it has no effect on whether a single ship 2 hull sizes smaller is able to breach the defenses of 2 ships 2 hull sizes larger. The way the game is said to be balanced is that you need 2 ships 1 hull size smaller to have a good chance of defeating a ship 1 hull size larger, but where UGTO is concerned this is not the case. They have unlimited cannon ammo and thus damage falloff is effectively nullified because they can fire forever from outside of optimal range and still cause enough damage to force larger ships to retreat or even kill them outright if they don't. Kluth small ships don't have the luxury of being able to fire cannons from 600+ range and are less maneuverable thus they will take more hits, and ICC don't have the luxury of unlimited ammo and will run out of firepower and be forced to leave and reload.
A Shell can also whittle away an ICC Dreadnought's defenses and eventually kill it with it's cannons alone given enough time, though it will take quite a while longer since it has less cannons and more torps/beams than a Gunboat or CD. However, due to it's larger size and lower maneuverability it generally won't last long enough to do a whole lot of damage before it needs to cloak and repair if it's attacking a Combat Dread.
From what I've observed standard armor repairs slower than active shields regenerate without defense mode, but not by as much as you'd think, and luth armor without AHR is much slower than both but that shouldn't be a problem since AHR has a lot of ammo and you'll probably run out of torps first.
Most ICC/UGTO ships have 2 full arc beams for PD coverage where most luth ships have more weapons in exchange for worse arcs, I'd guess it's because they don't really need a lot of PD coverage since cloaking breaks missile/fighter locks and missile ships are usually the first to die vs luth anyway.
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On 2011-08-27 11:02, Viskel the Muffin Muncher wrote:
Now add on that every single UGTO player will either go with weapon enhancements, or full blue defense enhancements. If you think UGTO armor isn't a problem, go up against any EAD that is full defense enhanced. An AD, which should stand up to it in a fight, will lose. It'll lose in defense and firepower, and the ICC don't have any enhancements that super-enhance them, like defense enhancements do for the UGTO.
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This is more a matter of enhancements being broken than the ships themselves, people have suggested numerous ways of balancing enh like limiting the % of bonus you can get for one stat to 25% so you can't simply load up on one enh, or adding a penalty equal to half the bonus (like +6% defense/-3% damage) but so far there hasn't been any serious consideration to enhancement balancing that I've seen.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2011-08-27 12:15 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2011-08-27 12:00
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 11:40, Talien wrote:
Most ICC/UGTO ships have 2 full arc beams for PD coverage where most luth ships have more weapons in exchange for worse arcs, I'd guess it's because they don't really need a lot of PD coverage since cloaking breaks missile/fighter locks and missile ships are usually the first to die vs luth anyway.
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No, its because most Luth ships are basically assault ships, and the cloak allows for dead on firing from the rear of an enemy.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-08-27 12:14
Yup, but I didn't feel like pointing out the obvious, just why luth lack the 2 full arc beams present on most human ships. Looking at it now though I suppose it isn't very clear, my bad.
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Hakketak
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 301
| Posted: 2011-08-27 15:58
[/quote]
No, its because most Luth ships are basically assault ships, and the cloak allows for dead on firing from the rear of an enemy.
[/quote]
to bad that with declaoking time, only a player not paying attention can get shot in rear arch, in any other situation the 1,5 second minimal decloak time gives any enemy enough time to at least turn 45 degree making me hit side arch. it takes speed, taking hits (no good for luth...), and manoevrability to stay near rear arch. In the meantime i can only fire 1/4 of my weaps most of the time, where the superior archs of enemy lets em use 50% of their weaps all of the time. Therefore i ask for balancing the archs (or decrease cloak/decloak time).
I still manage though...it just takes a lot of persistence, or a slightly afk and/or damaged player. Also I noticed the better beam damage overall from luth helps balance things...
im drifting away again...in short:
weapon archs superiority makes dog fighting in favor of UGTO
low weapon speed makes long range fighting obsolete, in favor of UGTO/LUTH
i recommend slightly lower (5-10%) PC archs, and a bit more weapon speed (favors ICC), for more balance and more difference in ships (there to many gunboats)
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2011-08-27 16:14
class to class, k'luth actually have more manuverability than the human factions. Especially at dessie. AME is far superior to any human engine in turn and speed. You have out turned me plenty of times in the Claw, and this regardless of what engines I tried. I was testing exactly this just the other day when we were fighting, and every time, your Claw got behind my gunboat. The best I was able to do was come to a stop to allow you to pass....
And seriously, 1.5 secs to uncloak......not really a bad timing.
I personally see UGTO and K'Luth as being very equal for the most part. Its ICC that I see as getting the short end atm....
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-08-27 16:14
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 09:29, *XO*Defiance{CM7} wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 06:26, Pantheon wrote:
The difference between Particle Cannon and Railgun damage is nullified at anything over 280 gu~. At that range, Railguns do the same or more.
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This may.. may... just maybe may have been true befor your changes to weapon damage... Now there is an aditional 20% difference in PCannon and Rail guns..
the range at which Rails equals Pcannon is more like 600gu now. But you cannot actualy hit anything at that range so... Cheers
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No, it's still true now. Before it was 250 gu, with the 10% damage, it's now up to 275 gu~.
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Hakketak
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 301
| Posted: 2011-08-27 16:26
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 16:14, Azreal wrote:
class to class, k'luth actually have more manuverability than the human factions. Especially at dessie. AME is far superior to any human engine in turn and speed. You have out turned me plenty of times in the Claw, and this regardless of what engines I tried. I was testing exactly this just the other day when we were fighting, and every time, your Claw got behind my gunboat. The best I was able to do was come to a stop to allow you to pass....
And seriously, 1.5 secs to uncloak......not really a bad timing.
I personally see UGTO and K'Luth as being very equal for the most part. Its ICC that I see as getting the short end atm....
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i was in drainer, i never fly claw. And i only use standard engines cause the faster ones generate no power at all... and yeah when i fought u i did notice u manoevre less then other players...prolly cause the others all got makkar buffs hehe. My main point was that other factions have their problems as well, not only icc. even ugto can write a thread like this about their energy problems
yeah ugto vs luth is good, some ugto ships better, some luth ships better. ICC got nice ships but a lot of new players in the fleet. As icc i never played dessie class, they just suck atm. Just get sensor frigate or strike cruiser imo, depending on target.
The part where icc OP: energy and range. I hardly see an icc use it. Seems like ppl think "since i got so many energy, ill just change my engines"....sigh
As icc u can fly full speed, use ur uberlong range nicely arched projectiles to shoot back, and wait for enemy energy to b 0 from trying to keep up with u. then u close in for the kill.
I see luth doing complex hit and runs, or positioning for 10 minutes just to get one kill. UGTO waiting patiently at a planet till all ugto rdy to strike, then wait for the right time, and jump in. But icc...just move in with a bunch of cruisers and dreads, and try to shoot all in range.
Edit: also, after some practice i think i did pretty well as an icc, although there still many things to learn. ICC has always been the hardest faction to play, because theres more tactics and management that comes in to play. Still half of icc dont rotate shield...
[ This Message was edited by: HakkeTak on 2011-08-27 16:38 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2011-08-27 16:45
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 16:14, Pantheon wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 09:29, *XO*Defiance{CM7} wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-08-27 06:26, Pantheon wrote:
The difference between Particle Cannon and Railgun damage is nullified at anything over 280 gu~. At that range, Railguns do the same or more.
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This may.. may... just maybe may have been true befor your changes to weapon damage... Now there is an aditional 20% difference in PCannon and Rail guns..
the range at which Rails equals Pcannon is more like 600gu now. But you cannot actualy hit anything at that range so... Cheers
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No, it's still true now. Before it was 250 gu, with the 10% damage, it's now up to 275 gu~.
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Shouldn't that sooner be around 300gu, given UGTO received a 10% boost and ICC a 10% nerf?
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-27 17:03
he used to say it was more near 400gu... i dont know anymore.
what he is saying here is that at 275gu the PC looses 20% (base level) of its power..'
if this was true, then staying just out of beam range from UGTO should put ICC equal to ugto. It clearly does not.
If this was true, damage done to kluth while staying just out of beam range as ICC would equal the damage done to kluth while staying just out of beam range as UGTO. It clearly is not.
You go get a ICC ship CD,HC,CDread and stay 300gu away from an equal class UGTO ship GD,BC,Combat D and see what happens to you.. 
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance{CM7} on 2011-08-27 17:30 ]
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