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Beta 1.6.7.1 |
*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
|  Posted: 2011-09-15 23:24
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On 2011-09-15 21:15, Talien wrote:
I wasn't able to check this out while it was in beta until the day before it went live, but when I asked about the ECM changes the answer I got was to make it easier for ECM equipped ships to cover eachother and other ships and make it more team focused without the ships having to be practically ontop of eachother, and to make it easier for ECCM to counteract ECM. That may be a bit much however since ECCM strength was not touched.
Of course this also means pretty much every ECM ship is useless on it's own since half the amount of ECCM is needed to counteract the ECM, and a single planetary sensor base can now nullify the coverage from 4 ECM gadgets.
This is worse for ICC given their ships have shield generators raising their sig, as it stands now with most ECM equipped ships you have the choice of either having shields that nullify your ECM, or turning them off to have a slight bit of ECM that only covers you at 10 or less speed as long as you don't try firing weapons.
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Yep. Stealth vette has to fly under 15 Gus even then you get maybe -1 sig. Also have to pray there is no ECCM near by. Shouldn't be the case cause its a Stealth corvette
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2011-09-16 00:50
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and make it more team focused without the ships having to be practically ontop of eachother, and to make it easier for ECCM to counteract ECM.
and a single planetary sensor base can now nullify the coverage from 4 ECM gadgets.
you have the choice of either having shields that nullify your ECM, or turning them off to have a slight bit of ECM that only covers you at 10 or less speed as long as you don't try firing weapons.
Stealth vette has to fly under 15 Gus even then you get maybe -1 sig. Also have to pray there is no ECCM near by. Shouldn't be the case cause its a Stealth
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you guys end up answering your own doubts.
ecm is a stealth device. it helps you hide yourself at a decent distance from enemy ships. you shouldn't be able to get to an enemy on your own without being noticed? thats k'luth-ish. key word here is TACTICAL (it has its pros and cons).
"a single planetary sensor base can nullify coverage from 4 ecm gadgets". thats not a complaint, thats a praise. so tyvm for praising the super-hardworking sensor base. also note that you were near a planet. you deserve to be noticed and pelted at (but hey, we're the range faction so we can pelt better). key word here is PLANETARY (the planet has an importance now).
from the point of view of icc ecm is bad, but notice that icc gets more EWar ships than other factions. this means that if you stop being kluthy and defensish and start being a ranger aggressivio then your border cruisers armed with reactive shields and eccm can pwn most small ships which try to sneak through. the key word here is SENTRY (ship tasked with finding stealthy ships can find stealthy ships, unlike before when bomber frigates could laugh at destroyers and cruisers trying to find them).
the stealth corvette is a torpedo ship with ecm. its main function is to roam around in enemy territory and attack support ships. its the icc veteran's fault for using it as a kluth ship which can fire while cloaked. on the other hand, the stealth corv armed with eccm can devastate bomber frigates easy, with little problems. key word here is TRACKER (it can not be tracked easily, and it can track other ships).
but if you use ecm in, say, groups of 3 or 4 stealth corvettes, you can pwn even better now. you switch it out for eccm and you can pwn enemy ecm, and force them to submission or confrontation (most of the time they jump off). remember, you have the best EWar frigate and EWar cruiser ingame. use them as a part of a group (not ai group) and you will understand that nerf to ecm does more good than bad. key word here is TEAM.
good luck.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-09-16 03:43
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On 2011-09-15 01:40, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Do fighter weapons have fall off?
If they do the so-called carrier faction would be...
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The weapons for UGTO and K'luth assault fighters do have falloff, but since their AI has them break off their attack run at 400 gu it has been reduced. As a result they inflict a higher portion of their base damage at longer ranges. This should keep them balanced with the ICC assault fighter.
Additionally, interceptor beam weapons have no falloff.
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2011-09-16 03:43 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-09-16 10:29
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On 2011-09-16 00:50, 4th wrote:
ecm is a stealth device. it helps you hide yourself at a decent distance from enemy ships. you shouldn't be able to get to an enemy on your own without being noticed? thats k'luth-ish. key word here is TACTICAL (it has its pros and cons).
"a single planetary sensor base can nullify coverage from 4 ecm gadgets". thats not a complaint, thats a praise. so tyvm for praising the super-hardworking sensor base. also note that you were near a planet. you deserve to be noticed and pelted at (but hey, we're the range faction so we can pelt better). key word here is PLANETARY (the planet has an importance now).
from the point of view of icc ecm is bad, but notice that icc gets more EWar ships than other factions. this means that if you stop being kluthy and defensish and start being a ranger aggressivio then your border cruisers armed with reactive shields and eccm can pwn most small ships which try to sneak through. the key word here is SENTRY (ship tasked with finding stealthy ships can find stealthy ships, unlike before when bomber frigates could laugh at destroyers and cruisers trying to find them). |
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So the DEFENSIVE faction isn't supposed to play DEFENSIVELY now? There really isn't much point in ICC using it's ships to counteract ECM since it has been neutered to where it's ineffective unless used en masse, as I pointed out 1 ECCM=2 ECM now, and a single planetary sensor base is enough to counteract 4 ECM gadgets so all you need to stop stealth bombers is 1 base on a planet and they're exposed by the time they're within bombing range. How often do you see UGTO or Kluth using more than one ECM equipped ship in a close group anyway? Luth really have no need for ECM since they have cloak, and the only time I really see this happen with UGTO is when a few ICC players decide to play UGTO for a day and run around in Harrier wolfpacks, or when a group of friends all joins at the same time and does that in their newbie days.
Most people with some sense will have no trouble tracking down bombers without using ECCM at all, it's easy to do since you can see the ship and it's ECM rings if it's within bombing range and you know which way to go to intercept it, even if you can't get close enough to target it you're still PDing it's bombs and preventing it from doing it's job.Quote:
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the stealth corvette is a torpedo ship with ecm. its main function is to roam around in enemy territory and attack support ships. its the icc veteran's fault for using it as a kluth ship which can fire while cloaked. on the other hand, the stealth corv armed with eccm can devastate bomber frigates easy, with little problems. key word here is TRACKER (it can not be tracked easily, and it can track other ships).
but if you use ecm in, say, groups of 3 or 4 stealth corvettes, you can pwn even better now. you switch it out for eccm and you can pwn enemy ecm, and force them to submission or confrontation (most of the time they jump off). remember, you have the best EWar frigate and EWar cruiser ingame. use them as a part of a group (not ai group) and you will understand that nerf to ecm does more good than bad. key word here is TEAM.
good luck.
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When a Scout can no longer SCOUT because of a single sensor base within 1000 GU, something is off. This also utterly removes Missile and Harrier Frigates from being an effective ship since they can no longer fire while under ECM unless there's 2 of them practically sitting still, it takes 3 of them to be able to move at a decent speed while firing. Harriers will probably have an easier time with it since, again, they don't have shield generators raising their sig. It's the equivalent of a Submarine being forced to surface whenever it fires it's torpedoes.
The only really good thing I can see is that lone Bomber Frigates can no longer singlehandedly trash a planet without being noticed, provided every planet has at least 1 sensor base.
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pawnerz
Chief Marshal
Joined: September 03, 2010
Posts: 50
From: Somewhere Somehow
| Posted: 2011-09-16 11:49
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On 2011-09-16 10:29, Talien wrote:
Lone Bomber Frigates can no longer singlehandedly trash a planet without being noticed, provided every planet has at least 1 sensor base.
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Hoooorah!, One problem... if only people knew how to build!
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Yet another forum thread by me about planets and AI >:D
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-09-16 12:06
Nowhere does it state that using ECM is the soul purpose of how the defencive faction operates. This is your personal opinion, and I side with the others here when I state that no lone ship should be able to mask itself from a planet or those with more ECCM.
Not to mention the fact that very few things should be done solo when it comes to planets. If you want to be hidden, you go in as a group, like everyone else.
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2011-09-16 12:15
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On 2011-09-16 12:06, Pantheon wrote:
Nowhere does it state that using ECM is the soul purpose of how the defencive faction operates. This is your personal opinion, and I side with the others here when I state that no lone ship should be able to mask itself from a planet or those with more ECCM.
Not to mention the fact that very few things should be done solo when it comes to planets. If you want to be hidden, you go in as a group, like everyone else.
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even against people who have no ECCM.. IE EADs. You don't provide enough ECM to cover your self
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-16 13:54
These are only my opinions, and im not saying this IS the way its going to be.
First up is the ECM strength being cut in half and range extended. While I was first upset about this change, I realized I was mostly angry because ive fully modified a bomber frigate, missile frigate, and boarder cruiser. These ships and my enhancement style are heavily reliant on the ships ability to hide itself from the opposition. I would love a refund of enough credits to remove these enhancements from these ships. But im not expecting or demanding it. The boarder cruiser will be least affected by this change, though admittedly, my play style with this ship is going to take a major blow. The BC¡¦s ability to soak up indirect fire, and out maneuver direct fire will more than make up for its ability to hide. The bomber frigate desperately needed something done about it. It vastly out performed every other bomber available. I¡¦m glad to see it will no longer be a one man wreaking ball. The missile frigate is capable of being a hard hitter despite its loss of stealth through its speed. I am sad to see that it is less of a threat to capital ships now. Two capital ships working in unison will be able to counter the MF with ease now that it cannot hide. This of course, is assuming that the MF will be alone. What this change does do, is require more teamwork. Now the best option is close formations of multiple ecm capable ships, thus enhancing the overall field presence of these type ships through numbers and tactics. Im all for teamwork¡K but there is no team at the moment¡K (PLAYERS COME BACK!!! !GRRRR) Guess there is no just me and Talien holding off the ugto armada with two ships anymore. ƒ¼ LoL Told you they would fix us for that talien. 
The one issue I do have with this change, is the ICC command class dread. Though well armored, its offence is quite lacking. While one could argue that its not meant to be a stand up fighter, the developments goals of having command class ships give off a AOE field to better enhance a fleets capabilities will not be as well received by ICC¡¦s Command class dread as it is for the other factions. ICC¡¦s command class dread is geared more for rearward combat roles, or support roles in non, to lightly hostile territories. (home systems). Its one saving grace was its ability to hide itself with ecm. This did not make the ship invincible. You could still see it at 1,000gu. It did however, present options for deployment in guerrilla style combat scenarios. I propose all factions have access to ECM platforms. This, and make mining beams fire from the aft of the icc CCD. This is just one idea that could keep the ICC CCD as a viable option for forward combat roles. This will also increase the importance of Beacons and scouts as spotters for fleets, as well as long range target acquisitions for carrier or missile based assaults.
Im open to other ideas on how to make the ICC CCD more of a front line ship where we can benefit from future changes to AOE command fields like the other factions can. I feel it should keep its 6 fighters at all cost. One build drone, one rear tractor beam. The rest is up for grabs.
The kluth cloak changes are ok. Here is my main problem with the idea though. Currently, the only way for a Kluth dreadnaught to engage and destroy a small ship is to point jump on top of it. Even this does not guarantee success. If a dread attempts to uncloak on top of an enemy small ship in attempt to fire on it, the small ship will detect the dread and move out of optimal firing range before significant damage is dealt. I believe the .5 second uncloak time for dreads is a bit crazy. For kluth smaller ships where speed is an essential part of combat, I believe .5 seconds is both needed, and a welcome change. It makes kluth small ships more user friendly to noobs, who often die before they get to fire one shot trying to decloak. Small ships in my book are destroyers and under. Cruisers should be about a 1.5 second decloak. Dreads should be at least 3 seconds in my opinion. Dreads on kluth are too forgiving. I believe this change makes them too affective versus small ships, thereby further perpetuating the kluth¡¦s current views on ship deployment.
I hope this finds home in your hearts.
Defiance
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-09-16 20:38
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On 2011-09-16 12:06, Pantheon wrote:
Nowhere does it state that using ECM is the soul purpose of how the defencive faction operates. This is your personal opinion, and I side with the others here when I state that no lone ship should be able to mask itself from a planet or those with more ECCM.
Not to mention the fact that very few things should be done solo when it comes to planets. If you want to be hidden, you go in as a group, like everyone else.
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Nobody suggested ECM was the sole purpose of the defensive faction, I just pointed out that it can no longer be used defensively or otherwise unless it's en masse. Even before this change ECM did not hide you from a planet with 2 sensor bases or a ship with more ECCM, it's just people refused to USE ECCM to counter ECM. Kluth didn't need to because the ECM was a benefit to them, ICC hardly ever needed to because most UGTO don't bother with ECM ships but on the odd occasion we'd be up against a Harrier or two someone would usually pull a Recon or something, and most UGTO that I've seen simply don't want to use utility ships aside from Supply because they'd rather fly combat.
I'd like someone to explain what is wrong with being able to use ECM defensively by activating it to make you harder to track or use it offensively to be able to fire while under ECM cover because the opponent refuses to use ECCM equipped ships to counter it. The few times (I think twice?) I saw UGTO pull out a Defense Frigate or Covert Ops Scout fitted with ECCM it effectively ruined the ECM cover from 2 Border Cruisers and forced us to switch from ECM sniping to speeding up and dodging because we could no longer stay hidden while firing. One much SMALLER ship to counter the advantage that two LARGER ships brought to the table.
And I said it was a good thing that lone Bomber Frigates can no longer demolish planets singlehandedly, provided planets have at least one sensor base.
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On 2011-09-16 13:54, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
These are only my opinions, and im not saying this IS the way its going to be.
First up is the ECM strength being cut in half and range extended. While I was first upset about this change, I realized I was mostly angry because ive fully modified a bomber frigate, missile frigate, and boarder cruiser. These ships and my enhancement style are heavily reliant on the ships ability to hide itself from the opposition. I would love a refund of enough credits to remove these enhancements from these ships. But im not expecting or demanding it. The boarder cruiser will be least affected by this change, though admittedly, my play style with this ship is going to take a major blow. The BC¡¦s ability to soak up indirect fire, and out maneuver direct fire will more than make up for its ability to hide. The bomber frigate desperately needed something done about it. It vastly out performed every other bomber available. I¡¦m glad to see it will no longer be a one man wreaking ball. The missile frigate is capable of being a hard hitter despite its loss of stealth through its speed. I am sad to see that it is less of a threat to capital ships now. Two capital ships working in unison will be able to counter the MF with ease now that it cannot hide. This of course, is assuming that the MF will be alone. What this change does do, is require more teamwork. Now the best option is close formations of multiple ecm capable ships, thus enhancing the overall field presence of these type ships through numbers and tactics. Im all for teamwork¡K but there is no team at the moment¡K (PLAYERS COME BACK!!! !GRRRR) Guess there is no just me and Talien holding off the ugto armada with two ships anymore. ƒ¼ LoL Told you they would fix us for that talien. |
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Everyone knows I have no problem with teamwork, and even before this change it took teamwork to effectively use ECM cover while firing. We needed at least 2 ECM equipped ships to do it unless you didn't mind almost sitting still or running with shields off, now it takes 4 to get the same result. As far as the BC in particular, as it was explained to me it's lack of firepower compared to every other combat type Cruiser was made up for by it's ability to hide itself with ECM, but since it can no longer do this what does it get in compensation?
Yes, we both figured there was another nerf coming since there was an ICC ship with an advantage, no matter how easily counterable.
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The kluth cloak changes are ok. Here is my main problem with the idea though. Currently, the only way for a Kluth dreadnaught to engage and destroy a small ship is to point jump on top of it. Even this does not guarantee success. If a dread attempts to uncloak on top of an enemy small ship in attempt to fire on it, the small ship will detect the dread and move out of optimal firing range before significant damage is dealt. I believe the .5 second uncloak time for dreads is a bit crazy. For kluth smaller ships where speed is an essential part of combat, I believe .5 seconds is both needed, and a welcome change. It makes kluth small ships more user friendly to noobs, who often die before they get to fire one shot trying to decloak. Small ships in my book are destroyers and under. Cruisers should be about a 1.5 second decloak. Dreads should be at least 3 seconds in my opinion. Dreads on kluth are too forgiving. I believe this change makes them too affective versus small ships, thereby further perpetuating the kluth¡¦s current views on ship deployment.
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It makes them a little too effective period, now a group of 3 or 4 luth ships really CAN practically instagib an equivalent ICC or UGTO ship since the decloak time is the same for all combat ships regardless of size. There's no longer any time to react. Like you said, it does make sense for the smaller ships to be able to fire quicker since that split second makes a much bigger difference as the ships get smaller, but for Dreadnoughts being able to instantly vaporize someone is a bit much, and makes SY camping even easier.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-09-16 21:28
ECM being changed had nothing to do with any faction. It has always been considered too strong, but due to its tie-in with cloak mechanics, it's had to stay like it has until now.
You can easily cloak two ships with ECM now as long as you're close together. It's difficult, but it's not impossible. We dislike the mechanic of one or two ships cloaking themselves completely from the enemy with little to no recourse (despite how easy you think it is to overcome
4+ ECM with only a handful).
Regardless of your opinion on this, it won't be returning to where it was before, and that's that.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-09-16 22:22
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On 2011-09-16 21:28, Pantheon wrote:
ECM being changed had nothing to do with any faction. It has always been considered too strong, but due to its tie-in with cloak mechanics, it's had to stay like it has until now.
You can easily cloak two ships with ECM now as long as you're close together. It's difficult, but it's not impossible. We dislike the mechanic of one or two ships cloaking themselves completely from the enemy with little to no recourse (despite how easy you think it is to overcome
4+ ECM with only a handful).
Regardless of your opinion on this, it won't be returning to where it was before, and that's that.
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I've tried it, 2 ships have to be very close together to get the same effect as 1 would have given previously, similar to how 2 ships had to be very close together to be effective before. The range may have been doubled but with strength being cut in half the effect is so diffused it pretty much makes it irrelevant past 200-300 GU, which is about the same effective distance ECM had prior to this change.
I haven't been able to find enough people to try this yet, but given previous results and since ECCM is unchanged, a single Recon/Covert Ops Scout or Sensor/Defense Frigate would be able to counter the ECM from 4 other ships. Perhaps changing it to 75% strength/+25% range would be better, or 70% strength/+30% range, because as it is now a single EW Scout/Frigate would nullify the ECM output of what is essentially a small fleet.
Yes, I know ECM/ECCM strength scales with level but the signature increase from engines, shields, weapons, and other active gadgets is more than enough to make up for the difference.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-16 22:44
im not overly worried about the ecm. Just stops me from being able to fight back outnumbered. Whatever. I knew the ECM stealth ships would not last, and outfited mine accordingly from the start.
*edit= btw.. dont you all know that all you have to do to nullify ecm is to be wthin min view distance of ecm cloaked ship? then that ships position is relayed to the rest of the fleet, and you all can shoot it... Caugh scout caugh.. So whats all this rubbish about eccm gadgets of same number not being able to counter it... lol*
How about the kluth decloak time?
You said one of the reasons for kluths overwhelming firepower was the unpredictability of cloak. Now that its predictable, is there a reduction in kluth alpha strike potential in the tube? Should they keep their overall DPS?
And what say you about my charge, that kluth dreads are even MORE affective vs small ships now? This path only enforces Dreadspace as kluth have no reason to field anything other, and nothing but dreads can stand against them.
Were we not trying to move away from this in 670? upon 670 release, we were set on a path that would greatly reduce the number of dreads on the field. Subsequent releases and hot fixes have all but undone this. In short, im just sad. not mad, outraged, defiant, or disgusted. Just sad.
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Decided to move this here, as its the 1.671 forum, and this is a v67 suggestion;
Regarding SY camping where players are killed before they can assume control of their ship;
the best option, is to have spawned ships invincible until a key is pressed. any key
I liked that idea.
Its not the act of camping a sy or spawn point that i find disturbing. Its the fact that many people die before the game even loads. And these kluth dont care if its a vet, or a total noob. Ive seen three noobs totaly run off from the game because of such tactics. Ive been on kluth when this is happening, and its something of a sport to them, complete with LOLS and "Great job" pats on the back. Disgusting.
not talking about those who run to sy and spawn another ship and get killed. your nearly instantly in control of your ship when you have already been in server. I dont expect kluth to keep track of who has and who has not been in server, and choose to fire on targets accordingly. The invincible until key is pressed upon spawn, even respawn elevates grieving that is truly not the kluths fault.
That being said, kluth are the only ones that can both, sit undetected at a planet in a dread, and insta gib a person upon spawn before he can even react. The other factions just cannot do this. I have seen with my own two eyes the sport many kluth players have taken in sy camping. Some prefer it over actual combat for its easy kills, and lols. This observation was made a week after 670 came out, and was observed many times during my stay as kluth. My final observation of such act was a week before i went ugto for four days.
This being said, i dont have a problem with spawn camping in and of itself. I rather have a problem of how the game deals with spawn camping. While i feel it is a totally legit strategy and plausible area denial, the fact remains that sometimes you literally do not even see the game world spawn, and are greeted with a You have been destroyed message. This HAS drove people away, and i feel action is warranted. Not in the way of bans, or rules, or lame gadgets that nullify an aggressors advantage such as some that have been suggested. I dont want SY planets becoming more of a safe haven than they are.
This is a minor issue with major impact. Spawning on other games is handled much better than it is in DS, and i think its time we catch up with the trend.
This was not much of an issue in the past because kluth ships burst damage was much lower than it is now. You would get in game and discover your nearly dead, or hurting, but now ships can be destroyed in seconds, sometimes one alpha strike.
*edit= realized a possible exploit of being invincible until key is pressed.
1. You can wait until weapons, jump drives, armor, and shields are full before moving.
2. You can wait until the enemy threat is nullified by planet defense or friendly ships.
Proposed changes. Max invincible time is one minute. Shields, armor, energy, gadgets and weapons do not charge while invincible. Allies and enemies can affect invincible ship in no way. No loading inf, no repair, no beacon, no eccm, ecm. ect. As well as invincible, player should be invisible or at least visualy different than a non invincible ship so that enemies and allies can act and react accordingly.
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Another observation;
Noticed that kluth have a Elite AI indictor in SAG!. I did not realize that was what you guys were talking about.
My thoughts on the matter;
Currently the AI indictor is only slightly a danger in that it cannot be ordered (I think) and it is a stupid ai. That being said, its relatively easy to convince this pup to drop its field and cloak, however, I heard this is soon to change with Faust’s smart AI code. (snide remark about dev teams apparent lack of direction here).
While the threat is only moderate as is, it still presents a problem to would be small ship captains. Although I don’t believe the AI itself can be ordered, its not hard to figure out which unit it is guarding and order that unit to do something. This gives the kluth a very usefull tool against small ships. A kluth can simply use the indictor ai to trap a cruiser or under, uncloak on its tail with its .5 lightning fast stealth action, and gib the poor small ship before it can react to the indictor, or the aggressor.
AI indictor is just another trait, in a long list of traits established by subuquent 670 releases designed, rather intended or not, to further compound players reliance and preference for dread class ships, to the bane of all else.
Again, the best counter to these traits is, you guessed it, more dreads.
The first flaw of 670 was the major increase to dread offence on nearly every level. (ICC AD withstanding). This boost of firepower far and away surpasses that of the cruisers and for relativity few drawbacks. Kluth as they are designed are built for high burst damage. The best ship for kluth to meet this design is a dread. Couple the dreads high burst damage, with high survivability through thicker armor and similar cloak properties, as well as a the fastest jump drive of all three factions, and you can see why they tend to only fly dreads. Where as cruisers specialize in damage over time, k’luth dreads completely nullify this advantage with sheer firepower, cloak and 75% of the speed. The best allocation of forces to deal with kluth dreads are assault dreads of your own. That, is at least how most people feel anyway.
So now that we have established why kluth don’t fly small ships, other than the occasional indictor (seemingly not even that now, but ill get to this in a minute) I will now lay out why the humans are further disinclined to fly small ships, in balance with kluth.
With UGTO’s optimal range being around 300gu, and given enemy deployment of only dreads, the only logical choice for them is more dreads, or stations. If your going to have to be within 300gu to do max damage anyway, may as well field that which has the most burst damage and best defense. Why would you not? ICC don’t use small ships well against kluth because of poor damage output, and limited ammo. In short for a cruiser to kill a kluth dread would take over an hour. No engagement lasts that long. Deployments of small ships against kluth by icc are done as a last ditch effort to halt an advancing force that outnumbers you or to pester kluth in a satiation where your only goal is to be a distraction.
Add to this the ability to augment your player dread fleet with orderable numerous AI and the need for small ship captains in support roles for the fleet such as supply, indictor, scout, recon, point defense, cannon fodder, and vanguard is greatly diminished, if not completely nullified. The player is far more handy in a dread along side you now.
So now ive detailed, vaguely I grant you, why dread space exists in 670 still. Now to focus on 671’s spin on dread space.
Exhibit A; All decloaking for combat ships is .5 seconds, stations withstanding.
Exhibit B; introduction of the kluth indictor elite AI in sag.
The kluth cloak changes are ok. Here is my main problem with the idea though. The only way for a Kluth dreadnaught to engage and destroy a small ship was to point jump on top of it. Even this did not guarantee success. If a dread attempted to uncloak on top of an enemy small ship in attempt to fire on it, the small ship would detect the dread and move out of optimal firing range before significant damage was dealt. I believe the .5 second uncloak time for dreads is a bit crazy. For kluth smaller ships where speed is an essential part of combat, I believe .5 seconds is both needed, and a welcome change. It makes kluth small ships more user friendly to noobs, who often die before they get to fire one shot trying to decloak, and desirable as an alternative for dreads. Dreads on kluth are too forgiving. I believe this change makes them too affective versus small ships, thereby further perpetuating the kluths current views on ship deployment. Most destroyers die in one shot from a well equipped siphon. Now there is no chance to fight back in a small ship if a dread decloaks on your aft. This further enforces that the best choice for fighting kluth is dreads. Deployments of dreads against kluth force them to deploy dread in retaliation. A vicious circle. Small ships are regarded as snacks in they eyes of kluth, and are treated as such. With .5 second decloak regardless of ship class (stations and support ships withstanding) Kluth dreads are more than a match against human small ships. (im moving on now.. im sleepy and don’t know how to get my thoughts across clear on the matter. Just… .5 second decloak provides 100% more options for kluth dread deployment against small ships)
Introduction of the kluth indictor only compounds this problem, as small ships can no longer run from the dread as it uncloaks in half a second, and cannot jump away due to AI immortal indictor. (immortal as it comes back, not that I cannot be killed) At the moment, this is a deadly problem mostly for small ships. The best way to counter the threat of this AI is to deploy…. Dreads… so you can persuade the bugger to disengage. The problem only promises to get worse with the coming updates to AI logic. yet another tool for kluth to use in order to compensate for human small ships so they themselves don’t have to climb down out of their mighty dreads. A compensation not needed or warrented, and only serves to further solidify the Kluth perspective on ship selection.
You may wonder why im only focusing on human, alien ship selection relationships. Its because I believe kluth reluctance to pull any other ship than dreads, and lack of incentive to directly affects the human deposition on ship deployment. Because kluth ships are not subject to the same rules as our human ones, that is survivability, support, and engagement, they set the pace. They have no reason to deploy small ships as is, as their dreads are far more affective vs small ships than their human counterparts, and as they have no need of support from vanguard, PD, EW, supply, or area denial.
The best chance humans have against kluth dread fleets is fleets of dreads of their own. Kluth best ships for dealing with human dreads are dreads.
I for one would like to move away from this trend. And I really thought we were. If you look at ICC Vs UGTO from a ship balance perspective, all ships are needed. Stations to scouts, ew, to supply. Diverse fleets of many ship types are needed to battle eachother. Its fun. Kluth pre 671 were already taxing this diverse fleet ideal.. I cannot phantom why we would just keep handing them tools to further inflame this problem. Should we not focus instead on making their dreads less desirable, and small ships meaningful? The same as the human factions in regards to ship roles.
If a UGTO fleet deploys nothing but dreads against a diverse ICC fleet, the UGTO fleet will loose every time from lack of supporting ships. The same in reverse. A fleet of diverse human ships versus kluth, however, is a one sided bloodbath. (equal number of players on each team in each scenario)
In closing, some ways to help this situation.
1. Increase Kluth Dread and Cruiser decloak time from .5 seconds to 1.5 seconds for cruiser, and 3 seconds for dreads.
2. Remove AI indictor Elites. An no AI indictor either. Its just too damn useful. Even worse so in the future.
Ive also been told that ICC and UGTO possibly have an AI indictor. I haven’t run across them yet, but if this is true, my statement about the kluth indictor making small ships less desirable also apply to ICC and UGTO indictor as well, but only to eachother. Obviously an indictor is going to have little affect on a kluth small ship. I feel these, if they exist, should be removed as well.
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2011-09-17 07:50 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-17 06:03
sry.. consolidated my triple post into one.
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2011-09-17 07:51 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-17 07:39
sry.. consolidated my triple post into one.
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2011-09-17 07:51 ]
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The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
| Posted: 2011-09-17 13:15
Quote:
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On 2011-09-16 22:44, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
Currently the AI indictor is only slightly a danger in that it cannot be ordered
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It can be ordered, so requires a replacement like a scarab or parasite.
Also i think Rails are too weak can't get any pres off them in an hour of constant fighting.
[ This Message was edited by: The Fridge on 2011-09-17 13:18 ]
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