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Defiance's hijacked thread. (discuss whatever u want) |
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2012-01-03 10:12
Formations only work if everyone involved is willing to recognize one person as in charge and follow orders, and is observant enough to monitor what's going on all around instead of just infront of them. You'd be hard pressed to find more than 5 or 6 active people in each faction capable of this, let alone online at the same time.
And we all know kenny is a bit of a troll, but bragging about needing to use the currently single most broken item in all of Darkspace in order to kill one person? I don't get that one.
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Sardaukar
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 1656
| Posted: 2012-01-03 11:05
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On 2012-01-03 10:12, Talien wrote:
Formations only work if everyone involved is willing to recognize one person as in charge and follow orders, and is observant enough to monitor what's going on all around instead of just infront of them. You'd be hard pressed to find more than 5 or 6 active people in each faction capable of this, let alone online at the same time.
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Like I said, practical reasons. I'm not insulting anyone playing now; This is a problem in all games. I got my fill of managing mobs and politely (and later "sit the hell down" abruptly) silencing aspirant voices who don't understand this simple rule of command while playing Warhammer and Planetside. Good leadership isn't in trying to be clever, it's in good logistics and clear directions.
Addendum to the first post, though. Again, if you find yourself feeling masochistic or have lucked out with a group willing and capable to quickly operate in a formation, a wedge would probably work quite well versus the K'luth as well. Historically proven and easy to reform and navigate with, the fleet will get most of the benefits of focusing fire on intruding K'luth while being able to advance aggressively. Certainly easier to manage than a circle.
[ This Message was edited by: Sardaukar on 2012-01-03 11:13 ]
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2012-01-03 11:09
If you use anything smaller than a Dreadnought without a Support Station(ICC) you will get ganked by the K'luth.
All I have to say.
(does not include the missile dread, it's a death trap)
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2012-01-03 11:12
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On 2012-01-03 07:30, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
ive seen some crap come down the dev pipeline but that elite beats all ive ever seen. Im glad its on the out.
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Agreed. Considering that the only ICC elites are in destroyers......
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2012-01-03 12:54
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On 2012-01-03 11:09, nonexistent wrote:
If you use anything smaller than a Dreadnought without a Support Station(ICC) you will get ganked by the K'luth.
All I have to say.
(does not include the missile dread, it's a death trap)
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I wouldn't fly an SS with a single dread as an escort, thats just an invite to be smashed  You can fly Dreads without stat support, but you have to be aware and very carefull of when and where you jump.  but yea I agree don't use the MD at this point, especially against luth. That's even worse than trying to kill them with an SS imo. my advice to VA's is to stick to cruisers, you can actually survive this way. 
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Fatal Perihelion
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 308
| Posted: 2012-01-03 14:13
"Smaller ships require teamwork to do well, and after some discussions with ICC pilots in particular, cruiser fleets are at best able to only force a fleet to retreat and not outright destroy it, wheras a Dread fleet has no issues (if they work together, trolololo) annihilating any fleet outright. "
-Ent
This and what Azreal said sums it up quite well imo.
Stations and Dreads take (or lose) control, cruisers and destroyers just patrol.
You will barely capture a foothold with cruisers and you will barely need this foothold, unlike a fleet of Dreads and Stats.
From the perspective of Dreads , smaller ships are pesky flys which cant be hit and cant be ignored for long.
So yes! Cruisers can be very effective and sometimes be the best option, but they cant replace everything.
For example:
3 ADs can jump a Siphon and kill it in seconds even if it cloaks, 5 cruisers cant do that.
To interdictors:
I hate em, whenever a mobile interdictor apears the battle is over.
To formations:
No matter if circle or wedge, what counts is staying together close enough, jump together. Any formation has to fall apart since this is not chess.
Actualy a complete static formation will give the enmy time to attack from the best angle and focus one prey.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2012-01-03 15:05
Why the hate for interdictors? Because they throw all your standard tactics out the window?
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Sardaukar
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 1656
| Posted: 2012-01-03 15:08
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On 2012-01-03 14:13, Fatal Perihelion wrote:
To formations:
No matter if circle or wedge, what counts is staying together close enough, jump together. Any formation has to fall apart since this is not chess.
Actualy a complete static formation will give the enmy time to attack from the best angle and focus one prey.
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. . . yeah.
That's the test of whether a group is capable of operating in a formation. A bad group will do one of two things: Overextend or not react intelligently. I mentioned a wedge for this reason specifically; it actively discourages overextending by providing a clear limit on how far forward and backward you should be, and is a shape simple enough to reform, and open enough that you rarely need to reposition to focus fire. Especially effective for ICC ships that can rely only on their outer shield arcs, sustaining them with the inner (as in towards the inside of the wedge). Reacting intelligently means knowing when to break and how far to do so. Are you in this wedge to approach and kill something like a hive? Then be ready to inverse the group into a claw around it. Are they hitting the ships on the back of the left flank? Have a response planned. There's too many to list here, but it comes down to not reducing everyone to a mob of friendly fire and blocked firing lanes, for there the bugs flourish.
Regarding formation jumping:
Unless you're travelling in a noncombat area or are executing a shock-and-awe charge, you should not jump in all at once. Treat your fleet like a hand of cards; Don't reveal them all until you're ready to deliver a killing blow. When your group shows up at the fight, jump enough in so that they don't get mauled, but still look like easy pickings. Ideally, the enemy will take the bait, some of them will completely break formation (overextend). They'll turn back and flee- and live- when it looks like they're getting to critical health; They'll judge this time based on the damage per second they're taking. Suddenly, you jump in more ships, right on top of them, ideally assault ships. They suddenly take a lot more DPS than expected, they're in no position to reach safety, and they die. The enemy is outnumbered while they wait for those players to come back, and you have plenty of time to kill any others in the area before that happens or otherwise force a complete retreat.
[ This Message was edited by: Sardaukar on 2012-01-03 15:15 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-01-03 17:06
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On 2012-01-03 15:05, Fattierob wrote:
Why the hate for interdictors? Because they throw all your standard tactics out the window?
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Mostly it's the AI Interdictor that someone decided it would be fun for one faction to have. Interdictors in general are fine, they just need some work so you can't do things like fly full speed and jump with the field active.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-03 17:38
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2012-01-05 17:06 ]
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Lithium
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 29, 2003
Posts: 109
| Posted: 2012-01-03 17:50
Smaller ships are just NOTHING.
I always ignore them.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-03 17:59
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2012-01-05 17:07 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2012-01-03 19:32
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On 2012-01-03 17:59, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
ignorance is paramont to defeat.
Small ships get this ignore treatment because the risk to reward factor is too high for the dread pilot.
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Well that depends. If you're an awesome Dread pilot, you'll never die but gain a ton of prestige faster than in a Cruiser.
But if you're an awesome Cruiser pilot, and you never die, the prestige you can potentially lose is much lower, but so is the prestige you can potentially gain (you just do flat out less damage).
If Dreads had bigger weaknesses, people would use smaller ships, but thus they do not. It is much more profitable to run a Dread fleet than a Cruiser one.
-Ent
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-03 20:16
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2012-01-05 17:07 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-03 21:39
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On 2012-01-03 07:30, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
Kenny...
3 kluth dreads (a few right?) and an indictor beating one lowley Boarder Cruiser... You really bragging about that? The results would have been the same no matter what he was in. You guys should really think about what the hell your saying.
*edit- And what do you think would happen if 3 boarder cruisers (a few right) and an indictor got after one kluth dread? Dread is dead.
As for indictors, they should always be countered with your own indictor.
as for bragging about your elite;
- A certain elite has lost it's interdictor device. All may be fair in war, but nerf bat beats all.
ive seen some crap come down the dev pipeline but that elite beats all ive ever seen. Im glad its on the out.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-03 21:58 ]
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3 dreads beating down 1 hard-to-hit cruiser or 3 cruisers beating down 1 hard-to-kill dread.
What's the difference? All's fair in war. Which is to say.... not.
It won't matter if you're just 1 dessie or frigate flying around. 3 Kluth dreads will still decloak on you just to kill you. That's life in DS.
Yes, Escapor is on his way out. We all know that. That's why we're milking him for all he's worth right now.
Once he goes, one of us will fly the dico. And it'll be the same. You bring your dico, we bring our dico. We all get in close. We decloak at the very last moment. 3 ICC cruisers, 3 Kluth dreads. None of us can jump. Let's see who dies first.
I think we've just stumbled on the only counter vs swift ICC cruisers. Bring a dico. And if we can, bring in a support ship crammed with ECM if it's a Border cruiser.
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