| Author |
latest beta - need clarification (new cloak) |
DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
|  Posted: 2012-02-01 06:49
Quote:
| In 1.672, Fautus wrote:
Additionally, if the cloaking device is engaged and energy level reaches zero the ship will begin taking internal damage to the device, drives, and reactors. |
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Quote:
| On 2012-01-30 09:46, Doran wrote:
if you run out of energy, you stay cloaked, but your engines and reactors are going to start taking damage and you'll continue not having energy. also the cloak itself will start taking damage, which will eventually force you out of cloak |
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When I test in beta, I realize that when the ship out of energy, a cloaking ship will meet nightmare:
- All reactors and aux gen are inactive. It takes time to reactivate them. Horrible!
- Several devices are damaged. In the worst case, the jump device won't work. Since repair rate takes longer, you're fish out of water.
Not to mention that when Luth has to cloak, in most of the case the ship has already been heavily damaged.
It is the ending of the battle. How about the beginning?
Normally, Luth ship has to cloak and slowly approach the target. Of course it can turn ECM to spend less energy. However, since ECCM range is double as long as ECM range, ICC/UGTO has the advantage before hand. As a result, the battle is optimistic for ICC/UGTO.
The penalty is way too strict for Luth, especially Dread. From my point of view, when the ship run out of energy and the cloak device is still on, only cloak gadget should take damage. Also, energy needs to mask the signature should be halved.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2012-02-01 07:04
Quote:
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On 2012-02-01 04:04, Furiosity wrote:
i think this problem of slow speeds and high energy drain can be easily solved with and ecm scout. If u look closely to the post in this thread, ull see several hint saying use ecm. All the responses where "i did turn ecm on". this is still a game where team effort gets rewarded. someone needs to grab that scout...
Also on a sidenote: this update helps reduce dreadspace. Recently all high ranking kluth have been fling station or dread. An update like this makes smaller ships more strategic.
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but would you aprove if icc would be forced to turn on def-mode to aproach melee-range (while you cant use any weapons / jumpdrive)
like i said on the last page:
it is ok that we need moar nrg when heavy eccm is around and less, if you re under ecm-cover
but there should be limits and sneaking up cloaked shouldnt render your ship complete useless
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-(kha-ti the silent watcher)-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 185
From: the land of silent watchers
| Posted: 2012-02-01 09:36
i do agree that we need more people on k'luth who use smaller ships for teamwork like scouts and such but we should be able to fight without them since there are times when not many people with be on.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2012-02-01 16:17
I like this.
I never liked pinging. It basically revolved around sitting with your ECCM off waiting for the timer to run out before you could press P twice in succession, and half the time it didn't work very well anyway. This system encourages you to actually have your ECCM switched on (which makes sense, surely) and removes the tedium of pressing P constantly, although some would argue that pressing P constantly is some sort of skill.
Secondly, it actually makes cloak a device that requires some thinking to use, rather than it being a device you can switch on whenever you feel like it without having to worry about its vulnerabilities. The system damage is a nice touch; you can risk "overcloaking" to get out of a tight situation at the risk of blowing up your cloak, and of course there's self-repair to compensate for that.
Thirdly, it makes smaller ships far more useful. Small ships typically have more electronic warfare making them useful for draining the energy of cloaked ships, and the k'luth ships have a lower energy drain when they're smaller which makes sense since presumably luth dreads are for when you don't need to be subtle.
TL;DR: no more K'luth dreads casually hanging around enemy fleets being mostly undectectable. No more mashing P every thirty seconds.
Disclaimer: I totally hate cloak because it's insanely hard to balance (99% of games including cloak seem to have units that are unstoppable until they run into an anti-cloak unit, at which point they instantly die) and because I'm fed up with mashing P constantly, so while I endeavour to avoid undue bias I don't guarantee anything.
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Boerenkool
Marshal
Joined: December 18, 2007
Posts: 218
| Posted: 2012-02-01 17:04
only problem i could see is bigger battles, where eccm is all around. add a SB on a planet and maybe a sensor plat, and it all adds up to a lot of dmg for any ship attempting to cloak. I can see how it might be usefull to limit the eccm/ecm stack per ship, just as it goes for repairs.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2012-02-01 20:36
dont get me wrong
im fine with cloak making you invisible
im fine with higher sig increasing energy drain
im fine with gadgets getting damaged when cloaked while out of energy
i just dislike the fact that it'll become impossible to get in range and shoot something for luth ships
their armor is already non existent, except for 2(?) ships they cant engage enemies beyond 600gu (or something like that) and their main weapon( lazers ) are giant energy-sinks
if this cloak (which i tested in beta ) goes live luth cruiser/dreads either have to rely on their puny pea shooters or sneak up a target and decloak out of energy with damaged/ offline generators or engines able to shoot 1 alpha and retreat to recharge energy
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-02-01 21:29
How about making ECM and ECCM usage cost the same energy as using cloak? 
So, if you use ECCM on the move, you see your energy going down the same way as a cloaked Kluth does. This way, human pilots will also have to decide when they're gonna use ECCM. Can't spam it all the way. You only use it when you suspect there's an attack coming.
Same for ECM. A cloaked Kluth will have to decide when he should use ECM to support cloak as it will drain his energy further. It's silly, as Geja said, that using ECM should reduce energy usage. If there're more Kluth around, obviously using ECM will be advantageous. If there're less of 'em they can always skip the ECM and drive straight in for the attack.
And ECCM cost will also be affected by the amount of ECM in the area (ie, related to his own base sig.). If he gets ECM'ed and his sig goes down, the ECCM usage cost should increase (like Cloak). The reverse is true for ECM usage too.
This way, even bomber frigs who're attacking planets with ECM on, will have to spend energy masking his own siggy (and his bomb's) if there're defenders around with ECCM on.
This way, it'll be a question of usage, and not just spamming.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-01 22:48 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-02-01 21:55
Quote:
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On 2012-02-01 04:04, Furiosity wrote:
i think this problem of slow speeds and high energy drain can be easily solved with and ecm scout. If u look closely to the post in this thread, ull see several hint saying use ecm. All the responses where "i did turn ecm on". this is still a game where team effort gets rewarded. someone needs to grab that scout...
Also on a sidenote: this update helps reduce dreadspace. Recently all high ranking kluth have been fling station or dread. An update like this makes smaller ships more strategic.
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That's why I proposed that there should be an energy cost for using ECCM and ECM, at the same level as cloak.
Plus, they should refit some scouts and support ships with more EW devices to support the rest of the fleet.
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2012-02-02 00:46
Quote:
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On 2012-02-01 21:29, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
How about making ECM and ECCM usage cost the same energy as using cloak?
So, if you use ECCM on the move, you see your energy going down the same way as a cloaked Kluth does. This way, human pilots will also have to decide when they're gonna use ECCM. Can't spam it all the way. You only use it when you suspect there's an attack coming.
Same for ECM. A cloaked Kluth will have to decide when he should use ECM to support cloak as it will drain his energy further. It's silly, as Geja said, that using ECM should reduce energy usage. If there're more Kluth around, obviously using ECM will be advantageous. If there're less of 'em they can always skip the ECM and drive straight in for the attack.
And ECCM cost will also be affected by the amount of ECM in the area (ie, related to his own base sig.). If he gets ECM'ed and his sig goes down, the ECCM usage cost should increase (like Cloak). The reverse is true for ECM usage too.
This way, even bomber frigs who're attacking planets with ECM on, will have to spend energy masking his own siggy (and his bomb's) if there're defenders around with ECCM on.
This way, it'll be a question of usage, and not just spamming.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-01 22:48 ]
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would be very interesting to see how well this works. With all the energy issues the dreads seems to be having(which may not be a bad thing if the devs want more diversity on the luth faction). If it really is terribly bad and not worth using a dread at all, Kenny's suggestion could work very well. 
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-(kha-ti the silent watcher)-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 185
From: the land of silent watchers
| Posted: 2012-02-02 09:29
Quote:
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On 2012-02-01 21:29, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
How about making ECM and ECCM usage cost the same energy as using cloak?
So, if you use ECCM on the move, you see your energy going down the same way as a cloaked Kluth does. This way, human pilots will also have to decide when they're gonna use ECCM. Can't spam it all the way. You only use it when you suspect there's an attack coming.
Same for ECM. A cloaked Kluth will have to decide when he should use ECM to support cloak as it will drain his energy further. It's silly, as Geja said, that using ECM should reduce energy usage. If there're more Kluth around, obviously using ECM will be advantageous. If there're less of 'em they can always skip the ECM and drive straight in for the attack.
And ECCM cost will also be affected by the amount of ECM in the area (ie, related to his own base sig.). If he gets ECM'ed and his sig goes down, the ECCM usage cost should increase (like Cloak). The reverse is true for ECM usage too.
This way, even bomber frigs who're attacking planets with ECM on, will have to spend energy masking his own siggy (and his bomb's) if there're defenders around with ECCM on.
This way, it'll be a question of usage, and not just spamming.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-01 22:48 ]
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i absolutely love this idea, if the humans get energy drained like we do for cloak when they use eccm i actually might go with this new cloak...i never did like pinging.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2012-02-02 10:23
Ignoring the ad hominem and the discussion on damage (which is an entirely new discussion; damage is too high overall, in my opinion)...
Quote:
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On 2012-02-02 06:48, Ululo. wrote:
Mashing P every thirty seconds? What is wrong with mashing P every thirty seconds? It gives Kluth time to get away, it creates teamwork which is so precious to you developers, it is in one word BETTER than the new system.
It may sound good on paper and mathematical reasoning, but it won't work in the game.
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Okay, things wrong with pinging (redux).
First off, staring at your ECCM device waiting for the cooldown timer to run out is quite possibly one of the most boring things you could be doing in DS. When you then stretch this out to, say, ten minutes of fruitlessly pressing P it rapidly becomes soul-crushing.
Try it out. Go into beta or scenario or whatnot, grab a ship with an ECCM, and pretend there's a K'luth ship out there you need to find. See how long it takes before you get mind-numbingly bored.
Secondly, it's not even all that reliable. In my experience, it's possible for the cloaked ship to be revealed for such a short period of time that you won't be able to target it even if you tap E repeatedly after pinging or worse, it'll never show up on your screen at all. Woe betide you if your camera isn't pointing in the right direction. Even if you do spot the target, all they have to do is adjust their course and you'll be back in the dark.
You can try this one, too. Have a friend fly an equivalently-sized K'luth ship and see how slowly and predictably they can fly before you can hit them reliably.
Thirdly, the new system actually means the ECCM is used as it was originally meant to be used, as opposed to being switched off for 99% of the time while it cools down. A device that's more useful when switched off than it is when turned on? Where's the sense in that?
Lastly (and this is the big one), it requires a silly number of ships to use effectively against a single K'luth ship. You need several ships with ECCM, and the ships that are better at pinging have far fewer weapons. You'll need lots of ships with guns to lay down lots of damage during the brief periods when you know where the target is, particularly since K'luth ships can heal themselves. You'll need an interdictor, because the K'luth ship will simply decloak and jump away when it takes too much damage.
Now, ostensibly pinging promotes teamwork. I hear this a lot from people who like the system. After a fashion you're right, because pinging is only effective when you get a huge blob of ships together in a massive, ever-pinging mob.
However, in an even fight you're going to have the same number of players on both sides. Now, one side has a big pile of sensor scouts looking for enemy ships, some heavy hitters that can kill a single K'luth dreadnaught quickly, an interdictor, and probably some supply ships.
This means that the fleet will always need several ships to fight a single K'luth ship.
On the converse side, the K'luth team needs no combined arms. They can field one dreadnaught for every ship on the opposing team. They don't need to ping to find the enemy because they'll be lit up like christmas trees. They don't need supply ships, because they can self-repair. They don't need an interdictor, because they can either kill enemy ships in a single coordinated volley or they can out-jump anyone who tries to flee.
The K'luth fleet approaches. The people pressing P notice this, and the entire non-K'luth fleet mobilises to track and kill one singular K'luth dread, because they can't afford to split their fire or they won't do enough damage.
While they're doing this, the entire K'luth fleet decloaks and kills everything smaller than a cruiser in a single shot each and drills big holes in everything else.
The opposing fleet now has no spotters and about half the numbers of the K'luth fleet. Once everyone's got their energy back, they repeat the everyone-decloaks exercise, except this time there are several K'luth dreadnaughts for each surviving enemy ship, which will probably kill everyone.
As my try-it-yourself exercise, I suggest that you get a dreadnaught and a scout and get two volunteers to fight you in K'luth dreads. See how long it takes for you to kill them while they stay cloaked. After that, see how long you live when they engage you. You're not allowed to outnumber the enemy because outnumbering is always an advantage and we're looking for a fair comparison of capabilities.
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Now, as far as I'm concerned, the changes to cloaking will change the above situation quite nicely: Since K'luth ships will have their energy drain affected by ECM, the K'luth faction will no longer be able to field nothing but dreads and will need to deploy their own smaller ships to combat enemy scouts. Rather than a dread and a scout versus two dreads, it becomes a dread and a scout versus a dread and an anti-scout which should be distinctly more balanced.
If the anti-scout wins against the scout, the K'luth dread has the advantage of cloak which should result in a win. If the scout defeats the anti-scout, the K'luth dread has its cloaking ability reduced which makes it vulnerable due to its weak armour, although it could simply kill the scout to level the playing field.
Thus: Teamwork between pilots flying different types of ships. On both sides. And nobody has to sacrifice their fun by waiting for their ECCM to cool down.
TL;DR: Playing DS is primarily about having fun. Does anyone, truthfully, actually enjoy sitting there waiting for their ECCM to cool down only to flick it on and then back off?
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2012-02-02 11:55
Won't have problems getting into range as long as you use EWAR just like humans do.
The problem I see it is player mentality. Cloak is not a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Its a temporary ability to let you get close, strike quickly, then get out and/or win.
Things cloak shouldn't let you do: sit cloaked indefinitely regardless of where you are.
I've played Kluth pretty steadily. Cloak has no real limitations and no real drawbacks and is an easy way to get in or out of difficult situaitons that human ships can't compare to. With an energy drain in heavy ECCM areas, that just just knock right off and put Kluth - particuarly their dreads - back on an even and fair footing with their human counterparts.
-Ent
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-02-02 20:16
Quote:
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On 2012-02-02 10:23, Gejaheline wrote:
Now, as far as I'm concerned, the changes to cloaking will change the above situation quite nicely: Since K'luth ships will have their energy drain affected by ECM, the K'luth faction will no longer be able to field nothing but dreads and will need to deploy their own smaller ships to combat enemy scouts. Rather than a dread and a scout versus two dreads, it becomes a dread and a scout versus a dread and an anti-scout which should be distinctly more balanced.
If the anti-scout wins against the scout, the K'luth dread has the advantage of cloak which should result in a win. If the scout defeats the anti-scout, the K'luth dread has its cloaking ability reduced which makes it vulnerable due to its weak armour, although it could simply kill the scout to level the playing field.
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This would be true if only
a) ECCM and ECM worked as equal counterparts of each other. Right now, ECM has been nerfed to the point that you'd need 2 to 4 ECM to rival 1 ECCM.
b) Since the ship refactoring, K'luth ships have been stripped of most of their ECM gadgets. Case in point: Ultimate Worker; where it used to have 3, you now have none. I've gone through the entire K'luth scout/corvette list in Beta. Not a single one of them has more than 2 ECMs. Most have only 1. Now compare this with human scouts. I've seen 3 ECMs on some of them.
Where is the parity here?
You tell me, why would I use a Kluth small ship for EW support when a dread or cruiser will do?
So, I propose that
1) ECCM/ECM gets the same energy use as cloak
or
2) ECCM and ECM effects are equaled to make them counterparts of each other. And K'luth small ships get loaded with more ECMs to make them actually useful as EW ships.
edit:
But first, the energy drain needs to be recalculated. Stations and the Siphon are bleeding energy when cloaked, even when in a no-EW environment.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-02 20:38 ]
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apate
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 21, 2010
Posts: 205
| Posted: 2012-02-02 21:07
Great idea, if the balancing is done properly.
(Also, I don't have the time to double check, but if you're still planning to scrap defense mode, I will be very sad.. IMO, it was a great idea, and is more or less balanced right now, with a couple of exceptions.)
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2012-02-02 23:40
Quote:
| On 2012-02-02 10:23, Gejaheline wrote:
Now, as far as I'm concerned, the changes to cloaking will change the above situation quite nicely: Since K'luth ships will have their energy drain affected by ECM, the K'luth faction will no longer be able to field nothing but dreads and will need to deploy their own smaller ships to combat enemy scouts. Rather than a dread and a scout versus two dreads, it becomes a dread and a scout versus a dread and an anti-scout which should be distinctly more balanced.
If the anti-scout wins against the scout, the K'luth dread has the advantage of cloak which should result in a win. If the scout defeats the anti-scout, the K'luth dread has its cloaking ability reduced which makes it vulnerable due to its weak armour, although it could simply kill the scout to level the playing field. |
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a (human) dread and a (human) scout versus a (Luth) dread and an (Luth) anti-scout is a logical strategy.
a (human) dread and a (human) scout versus two (Luth) dreads is a practical strategy.
When your team's firepower exceeds the opponent team, just jump all at once and kill without cloak.
This changes to cloak pursue Luth to worship raw outnumber-for-the-win tactic more warming than ever!
I can confirm that keeping the human scout alive is the best idea to weaken the other team strength. 1 Siphon & 1 Mandible vs 1 ST-100 1 ST-1 or M-400 & M-24S; result?
I notice that anti-sensor structure might have a chance to prove its usefulness on Luth planet.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2012-02-02 23:44 ]
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