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Play testing of new ECCM |
Fatal Afro Man *NCO*
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: September 09, 2006
Posts: 201
|  Posted: 2012-03-25 00:35
From what i've seen there is no issue in terms of how the ECCM works when engageing luth dreads, i've seen on lose its cloaking and we killed it easily with only 3 or so ships running ECCM. The problem is smaller ships can just run out of the ECCM range easily. The main problem i have is the fact that a kluth transport can easily fly into a large fleet of ships running eccm, drop inf on what ever target they want and eaither leave or get blown up with little pres loss.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-03-25 01:12
Why not have a minimum launch range like the bombs have?
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Kaepora
Fleet Admiral
Joined: February 08, 2011
Posts: 77
| Posted: 2012-03-25 01:49
I've been telling people that they haven't implemented the "ECCM drains energy thing" yet because honestly I have SEEN NO DIFFERENCE.
Eccm does nothing at all to my energy. I fly a mandi all the time. And I still get pinged every once in a while, seems random, but a low chance. I havn't had a scout go 4 focused on me, but it still loses it's lock, so until next patch we can't really know.
Still, Kluth aren't broken like they were. AHR nerfs were badly needed for years, AND they don't have 2 on dreads anymore.
As long as that stays the same, kluth are significantly closer to balance.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-03-25 03:00
I thought they implemented cloak draining energy according to signature?
I'd like to see some sort of indicator so we can see how much signature the cloak is trying to cover up. Can you possibly make the signature being covered show as a negative number instead of always being 0?
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2012-03-25 03:09
I think people are asking of extending excessive purnishment. Is it obvious that when a Luth discover his energy is going down, he will not decloak. He may stay away from the ECCM swarm and waiting for a chance. Having many ships with ECCM must be the reason that drives ICC clinging to the idea of draining Luth energy.
I believe people are forgeting the extreme benefits of running many ECCM - stretching decloaking time. You don't need to drain Luth energy at all. Just let it think it's safe to decloak, then suddenly finds it take 2-3 seconds till full activation and recognizes some seconds are enough for critical strike for ICC.
Luth always has emptive attack. When a luth reads out his energy is losing, he certainly stays away from the ECCM swarm and waits for his chance. This is not what human expecting.
If ICC insists on draining energy, I suggest they ask directly for ELF instead of sensor gadgets. ELF drains energy for shield and nullifies Luth. Do you know Luth lose energy almost by its alpha? ELF, not ECCM, is it best anti-tool. Personally, I think tools are assigned inefficiently. ICC already has pulse wave, they don't need pulse beam as alternative of CL. ICC needs ELF. UGTO doesn't really need flux wave, they need pulse beam. And Luth doesn't need ELF. If I can design, I replace 6 ELF on Siphon with 2 aux gen and 4 flux wave. Luth prefers flux wave and aux gen to ELF.
Keep in mind that you need weapon to kill a ship, or say in another way, defend yourself. Why is UGTO so calm when facing Luth? Not only UGTO weapon is stronger than ICC, but also UGTO has less sensor gadget than ICC, which means it has more weapon than ICC. When I play ICC, I prefer weapon gadget to sensor gadget. Hello, Luth isn't the only opponent, there is UGTO.
TL;DR: having too many sensor gadgets does not help ICC much. Instead, asking for weapon to replace sensor gadget.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2012-03-26 00:06 ]
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Died~2000~Deaths[+R]*CC*
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: February 08, 2010
Posts: 540
From: Spokane WA.
| Posted: 2012-03-25 06:10
kluth mandible for exsample: has a verry high power drain because of the weapons on it. if u alpha something like a dread with it then you will have to atleast 3 or 4 times atleast, then your power is allmost gone which means i have to cloak and rep and wait for power to come back up before another atack. no it's not impossible to kill icc or uggie dreads but it's not easy either. theres no one shot one kill unless your in a frig or scout. so this means kluth will hit then cloak and hide then hit again theres no i'll shoot it out with you untill u die. if kluth are atacked with a small ship then you better dodge and don't stop moveing. if a d kluth dread is chaseing you then he will run out of power by the time he catches you. and did any one think that maybe we have bought some energy recharges u know the enh u can buy that gives you power when u right click on it. so maybe go to beta and jump in a mandi and go up against a dread and kill it with out cloaking or dieng first beleave me it's not easy.
Died~2000~Deaths[+R]*CO
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-03-25 06:20
I'll probably test this in the next couple of days.
We'll probably need these ships in the test.
Kluth
- Siphon (because it's unique in only having one gen, and is hence weaker vs ECCM)
- Mandi (standard dread)
- Claw (to test the effects of ECCM on a small Kluth ship)
ICC
- Scout (to test beaconing a Kluth to see what effect it has on his sig/energy)
- 2 to 3 Boarder cruisers... or any ICC ship with a high ECCM count.
Test procedures:
- Out of Combat testing
Get the Kluth ships (one by one) to run in cloak starting at 400gus then getting closer (400, 300, 200, 100 gus) at different speeds (5, 10 and 15 gu/s) and tabulate the drain rate per sec. Test with 0 ECCM, then 1 ECCM, and 2, an so on.
- In combat testing
Let the Kluth ship decloak and hit someone/get hit, then cloak again. Within the 30 secs, repeat the above test to see his drain at diff speeds, at diff distance against diff number of ECCM devices.
What you get is a table that resembles:
example:
Kluth Mandible vs 0 ECCM
xxxxxxx | 400 gu | 300 gu | 200 gu | 100 gu |
0 gu/s | -0 e/s | 0 e/s | 0 e/s | 0 e/s |
5 gu/s | -0 e/s | -0.1e/s | -0.5e/s | -1 e/s |
10 gu/s | -0 e/s | -0.3e/s | -0.9e/s | -1.3e/s|
15 gu/s | -0.9e/s | -1.3e/s | -1.6e/s | -2.1e/s|
At least if you get empirical data, you can prove something.
Testing is just one thing. The other thing is managing your own (player's) expectation.
Consider these questions:
1) What do Kluth players expect from the cloak/energy relationship?
2) What do human players expect from the cloak/energy relationship?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-03-25 06:35
Next, you guys also realize that Kluth players are not going to play dumb right?
- OOC drain is -25% less. He's going to position himself to attack you at your weakest axis, then bug out BEFORE his energy runs too low.
- Once he cloaks, he has 30 seconds to avoid being hit. After that 30 secs, he gets his -25% drain reduction bonus again.
- The Kluth ship is going to twist and turn and get beyond 400GUs as fast as he can. Then once he's charged up, he's gonna come diving in again.
Looking at these 3 points, you should be able to see that it's not easy to kill a Claw. I mean, you IQQs have been preaching the values of your cruisers vs UGTO/Kluth dreads for a LOOOOOoooong time, right?
So here's your lighter/quicker ship vs your heavier ship tactic being used against your cruisers. The Claw has a 5 gu/s speed advantage. It turns tighter than you. It out-accelerates any one of your cruisers.
.... plus it can sneak up right on your ass undetected, and it packs a wallop with its torps and beams. So it hits you hard. 2 or 3 alphas. And right after that, once the energy has fallen below 30%... it simply cloaks.... and twists and turns to avoid being hit, completely undetectable, and accelerates out of your ECCM range pronto. Gets its 25% regen bonus.... then scoots back in and repeats the attack.
A dread like a Mandi or Siphon can't do that. It can sneak in with the OOC bonus. Sure. But once it decloaks and attack, it's not going to be able to sneak away easily like a Claw.
I took a Siphon into an ECCM zone only 2 weeks back. There was a Boarder Cruiser and Combat Dread, plus a couple of sens plats around a planet. My objective was to destroy the sens and supp plats around the planet. So I approached it slow to conserve energy. Once in range, I accelerated my dread to give myself some escape velocity and killed the plats on my way out.
Once I was low on energy, at full speed, and running away from the planet (dictored), I couldn't cloak anymore. The CD and BC jumped me and I was dead before I could clear the dico field to e-jump out.
My mistake was letting my energy drain to 10%. That was past the recoverable point. At full speed, being ECCM'ed, I could not regen enough energy to escape. My cloak only lasted about 5 seconds before dropping and the cloaking device was damaged beyond use shortly after.
If a Kluth player withdraws when he still has about 25% energy, he won't be as easy to kill. (barring being beaconed)
TL;DR?
You have to see what ship you're flying against. And some players will handle their ship better than others.
So you can't nerf/buff based on just one scenario. If a player is playing very cautiously, you can be assured that you will find it very hard to kill him without some serious backup.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-03-25 06:37 ]
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Died~2000~Deaths[+R]*CC*
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: February 08, 2010
Posts: 540
From: Spokane WA.
| Posted: 2012-03-25 06:37
let me know when u wanna test and i'll help. doesn't matter to me what i fly, let me know what u need.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-03-25 07:15
Quote:
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On 2012-03-25 06:37, Died~2000~Deaths[+R]*CO* wrote:
let me know when u wanna test and i'll help. doesn't matter to me what i fly, let me know what u need.
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OK. Will do if I see u online.
Right now I just got back from a weekend roadtrip and my shoulder's killing me. That's what you get from riding a bike over 600 klicks. Fun, but maybe I'm just getting too old for that crap. Heh.
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2012-03-25 08:35
What your noticing is the advantige of Small luth. I was the claw after rainbow left =D. Due to the claws higher speed and lower sig it was easier to get out of your ECCM range before the drain got to high, after that i loitered for a min or so OOC to regen energy, then i went back in to make another hit. only problem was tailen and his becons, and getting pinged which should not be happening in this version. Now if i had tried doing that with a dread i would have been toast.
[ This Message was edited by: Dagda on 2012-03-25 08:36 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-03-25 10:21
Quote:
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On 2012-03-25 08:35, Dagda wrote:
What your noticing is the advantige of Small luth. I was the claw after rainbow left =D. Due to the claws higher speed and lower sig it was easier to get out of your ECCM range before the drain got to high, after that i loitered for a min or so OOC to regen energy, then i went back in to make another hit. only problem was tailen and his becons, and getting pinged which should not be happening in this version. Now if i had tried doing that with a dread i would have been toast.
[ This Message was edited by: Dagda on 2012-03-25 08:36 ]
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Sounds familiar... 
So you concur that the Claw is indeed using speed + hit & run tactics... and not ECCM being overly nerfed.
BTW guys, pinging still works... somehow. So with cloak/energy drain + pinging... I really don't see how you can be complaining. At least until the devs fix pinging.
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2012-03-25 12:08
played luth for a bit last night and the pinging seems to be erratic, it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. as to energy drain, I was only flying cruisers and down but I never personally had issues with energy. As to a claw being good vs our cruisers kenny, you should meet my BC. I think it will outmaneuver and be able to match the speeds of a stock claw. An ehs one would be a tough fight though.
[ This Message was edited by: Brutality *XO2* on 2012-03-25 12:30 ]
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2012-03-25 14:15
interesting you say that kenny.
I wouldnt fly a cruiser as ship of choice against a claw.
TBH the 400 gu eccm range should be upped or something because anything smaller then a dred is out of that in 5 seconds.
Luth transports seem to not be affected whatsoever, i sat litteraly ontop of one while it made its run to our station with all ECCM running and nothing happened.
what kenny said about the claw is totally true and TBH makes it feel overpowered. I was capable of doing the same thing in a scale to enemy cruisers - Alpha rear, cloak, evade. ECCM in no way forced me to reconsider how i would run my attack. IF anything it was ALOT easier because i had no pinging to worry about as i merrily positioned myself.
[ This Message was edited by: iwancoppa on 2012-03-25 14:19 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-03-25 19:54
Quote:
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On 2012-03-25 14:15, iwancoppa wrote:
what kenny said about the claw is totally true and TBH makes it feel overpowered. I was capable of doing the same thing in a scale to enemy cruisers - Alpha rear, cloak, evade. ECCM in no way forced me to reconsider how i would run my attack. IF anything it was ALOT easier because i had no pinging to worry about as i merrily positioned myself.
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You can't call that OP. It's the mechanics of small ships vs large ships. You can outrun and outmaneuver the heavies.
Look on the bright side. Kluth won't always be in dreads, right? 
PS:
It just occured to me that the ultimate Kluth wolf pack would consist of Mandis and Siphons with Claws in support.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-03-25 19:58 ]
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