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Missiles Arming |
Fluttershy Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011 Posts: 778 From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-05-06 02:33  
I'm just saying... and I know you're not getting rid of cloak... But it's definitely one of those features that is fun for the one using them, but a real pain for everyone else.
The whole setup of cloaked ships with paper armor and beams with no falloff only makes them overpowered against... anything that's not an EAD.
K'luth, I think, is a main cause of "dreadspace" seeing as you will be highly ineffective against kluth if you don't use something with lots of armor and firepower to make them regret ever uncloaking.
Ganglia with shroud missiles is a perfect example, being able to kill a destroyer in 2 hits with missiles alone (And they are very difficult to dodge, especially since they don't arc), and hardly taking a scratch of damage in the time it takes to do so.
Unless you are fighting against hyper aggressive EAD players who jump you as soon as you jump, you'll be able to jump in with a ganglia, cloak immediately, and begin your attack when your JD is charged, and from a safe distance outside of a dictor field.
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NoBoDx Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003 Posts: 784 From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2012-05-06 04:34  
ganglias cant attack from outside a dictor-field
+ their maximum range is still within human factions projectile weapons
and the other missile-dread ingame can oneshot a dessie too
and it have a lower rank requiremet
and it have a higher range
and (being an icc-ship) it probably have a better turning rate
and it have a rotateable shield
(afaik) and it have more missiles
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this entire discussion is just about
- we want a deadzone for (luth only) where missileships cant do anything
and it reminds me of the hunter in wow some years ago
_________________ The only good 'ooman is a dead 'ooman. An' da only fing better than a dead 'ooman'z a dyin' 'ooman who tell you where ter find 'is mates.
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Thernhoghas Grand Admiral Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: September 18, 2010 Posts: 243 From: somewhere in Germany
| Posted: 2012-05-06 05:48  
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On 2012-05-06 04:34, NoBoDx wrote:
ganglias cant attack from outside a dictor-field
+ their maximum range is still within human factions projectile weapons
and the other missile-dread ingame can oneshot a dessie too
and it have a lower rank requiremet
and it have a higher range
and (being an icc-ship) it probably have a better turning rate
and it have a rotateable shield
(afaik) and it have more missiles
-----
this entire discussion is just about
- we want a deadzone for (luth only) where missileships cant do anything
and it reminds me of the hunter in wow some years ago
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The other factions missile ships have one major disadvantage against the ganglia though:
their missiles are visible
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Fluttershy Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011 Posts: 778 From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-05-06 05:58  
Ganglia can shoot from 1300-1500, more if you use enhancements.
I'm pretty sure that's outside of a dictor.
Cloak is extremely powerful on a long ranged missile ship.
So yeah, the other factions missile dreads can do much of the same, but what they can't do is vanish out of sight when someone jumps them. [ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-05-06 05:59 ]
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Kenny_Naboo Marshal Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010 Posts: 3823 From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-05-06 06:13  
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On 2012-05-05 21:38, Pantheon wrote:
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On 2012-05-05 20:23, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
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On 2012-05-05 18:46, Pantheon wrote:
The Psionic missile have falloff, and I believe the Shroud was supposed to - not sure why it doesn't.
All weapons are being looked into towards the end of May (or whenever myself and Fattierob have time to sit down and look at them), this includes falloff values and damage - that includes Shroud missiles.
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Question: Why are missiles subjected to falloff? Perhaps I can understand the PSI is, since they're mental projections of the Kluth.
But the shroud is regular hardware like the rest of the missiles, barring the neg sig. If so then they shd all have falloff. But as I said, why shd missiles have falloff??
Missile ships use range to do damage. Putting falloff into missiles defeats that purpose.
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I believe the entire reason they have short activation ranges is due to the fact that they were supposed to have falloff.
K'Luth aren't designed for long range warfare, never have been designed for it. Unfortunately, I've never really been a position to stop what had happened prior to me becoming head of the dev team, which has lead to situations like this - long range K'luth.
You can give any roleplay spiel you like, but the truth of the matter is, that long range K'Luth ships simply don't work (even if you take away the fact that we don't want them). They have EXTREMELY high survivability due to cloak and range, and they deal very high damage whilst doing so (and may I add, the missiles have base negative signature).
This has never sat well with me with any ship or faction, you should never be able to do a lot of damage and couple it with high survivability/saftey, and this is what some K'Luth ships to. It's one of those situations which is only enjoyable for the person flying it because of the fact they know they have a decreased chance of dying, and can pump out lots of damage whilst doing it. On the flip side however, it's not enjoyable for the receiving party(s), and I don't like forcing frustrating situations onto players, as it usually causes them to log off.
They may well be changed in the future to something else, but for now we're probably going to go with the falloff system to balance long range K'Luth ships. It's very difficult to take something away once it has been given, as you'll always upset someone, so I think the best middle ground would be to allow the ship to be potent at short range (as is designed for all K'Luth ships) and allow them to function at long range, but with decreased potency.
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Ok. So what is the falloff amount anyway?
I can understand what you're getting at. And I do agree somewhat abt the part you mentioned abt something being fun for one and not for others. Perhaps there're other ways to go about it?
We can't just say that missiles don't work for Kluth. There should be every class of ships available for every faction. But those classes that fall outside the faction's paradigm should be limited to one or two ships. Otherwise the Kluth shd not have the Ganglia, the ICC shd not have the AD, and the UGTO should not have the BD or missile cruiser.
Looking at the Ganglia; besides the cloak, there're a few things going that makes it a QQ magnet.
- It has missiles and guns. It's functional both as a missile ship as well as a gunboat
- Shroud has a neg siggy
- Short min arming distance
If you ask me, I would suggest
- Reducing the number of PSI cannons or removing them entirely and replacing the space with more missiles and some beams
- Adjust the minimum distance to be the same as that of the Harpex
- Reduce Shroud damage by 10 to 15%
- Falloff for PSI (die to high damage potential), No falloff for Shrouds
The Gang is already a rare ship in the MV, as most Kluth prefer the usual assault ships. Making it into a true missile ship would be better than the current hybrid. Right now it can still fight off any dessie that comes its way. Setting a longer min arm dist and taking the cannons out will make it as vulnerable as an MD. So players will use it more judiciously.
Where am I going with this? I suppose what Im trying to prevent are more "Halfway Nowhere" ships from being created. Ships that have been configured or tweaked in the name of balance but end up being useless in most situations. It's one thing to be OP, but we're running into danger of rendering them useless too.
I would rather have a ship class removed than nerfed into oblivion. Take for example the Krill. It went from OP to pointless. It would have been better to have had it temporarily removed from the game until properly configured than leaving it available in its current state.
Well, that's my 2 cents anyway.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-05-06 12:13 ]
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Mylith Grand Admiral Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011 Posts: 507 From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2012-05-06 13:04  
@qq: You ever actually tried FLYING a ganglia?
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Fluttershy Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011 Posts: 778 From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-05-06 13:17  
I have, why, what's wrong with it?
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Kenny_Naboo Marshal Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010 Posts: 3823 From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-05-06 13:18  
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On 2012-05-06 13:04, Persistance wrote:
@qq: You ever actually tried FLYING a ganglia?
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LOL. Good question.
Many times. Alone, a Ganglia is completely useless against anything but stations. Even then, their missiles usually get PD'ed.
In a battle, providing fire support, with enemy ships distracted by close range combatants, it's much more useful. In a group (which is very very rare), it can pelt large ships to death.
The Ganglia is actually useless against small ships unless they stay completely still.
_________________ ... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
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GunsOfHonor Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 31, 2011 Posts: 191
| Posted: 2012-05-06 15:42  
this topic was not to bring up if cloak is OP or if the Gang is OP in my humble opion the Gang is not OP at all is pretty perfect. its the shrouds that make it become a ship almost unmatched
people saying our missile ships are OP shut up we dont have PSI's
but back on topic the shrouds need a nerf. If not then Humans should get an Tier 3 Anti EW missile i mean seriously we have what now LDM, PCM, and harpex Very very rarely does anyone use PCM, LDM is somewhat used, but everyone for the most part uses harpex cause its the only applicable missile
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Kenny_Naboo Marshal Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010 Posts: 3823 From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-05-07 06:48  
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On 2012-05-06 15:42, Fatal Devil Dog wrote:
this topic was not to bring up if cloak is OP or if the Gang is OP in my humble opion the Gang is not OP at all is pretty perfect. its the shrouds that make it become a ship almost unmatched
people saying our missile ships are OP shut up we dont have PSI's
but back on topic the shrouds need a nerf. If not then Humans should get an Tier 3 Anti EW missile i mean seriously we have what now LDM, PCM, and harpex Very very rarely does anyone use PCM, LDM is somewhat used, but everyone for the most part uses harpex cause its the only applicable missile
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I fail to see how the Shrouds are so effective or OP as you mentioned because most of the time when I'm working alone in a Ganglia, they get PD'ed to bits. More so if said target was orbiting a planet with a sensor base.
Of course, the Shrouds are very effective against AI who're just sitting still. Perhaps you should consider telling your helmsman to shove that throttle lever forward next time?
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-05-07 06:49 ]
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Pantheon Marshal Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001 Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2012-05-07 10:34  
I think there may be a point of the negative base signature and latency may be affecting peoples abilities to PD them down, which will be looked at.
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Talien Marshal Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010 Posts: 2044 From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-05-07 12:00  
That seems to be the case, as most often with Shrouds I can actually see the missiles themselves but can't target them and any beams set to PD won't shoot at them.
Of course, there's still the issue of missiles/fighters not rendering and being totally unseen/untargetable when there's more than 3 or so ships worth flying around.
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Kenny_Naboo Marshal Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010 Posts: 3823 From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-05-07 12:12  
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On 2012-05-07 10:34, Pantheon wrote:
I think there may be a point of the negative base signature and latency may be affecting peoples abilities to PD them down, which will be looked at.
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Hmm, but latency is a client side issue and nothing can be done abt it. That has always been yr stance more or less. If you tweak the Shrouds to address the needs of the few with latency issues, it may affect the gameplay experience for the rest who has no probs with it, and also the players who do use it.
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GunsOfHonor Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 31, 2011 Posts: 191
| Posted: 2012-05-07 12:16  
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On 2012-05-07 10:34, Pantheon wrote:
I think there may be a point of the negative base signature and latency may be affecting peoples abilities to PD them down, which will be looked at.
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Thank you very much thats all i ask
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