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Gunships |
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2012-06-06 12:50
Actually the ICC Command Carrier has less fighters than the Agincourt, 6 vs 8 last I recall.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2012-06-06 18:26
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On 2012-06-06 05:40, iwancoppa wrote:
The problem is,
the humble CD lacks capability to keep distance, unlike the ICC cruisers. Personally I think it is a great cannon boat at range, But range is a cheap commodity in darkspace.
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The ICC aren't supposed to indefinitely keep range. If they could keep range forever they would win all engagements.
In CQC the ICC aren't totally helpless.
From the old spread sheet:
Dread Levels:
At point blank a single particle cannon projectile does 4007.5 dmg. At max range it deals 1192.5 dmg.
At all ranges a railgun does 2945 dmg per bullet.
The BD has the broadside equivalent of 14 pcannons. At pointblank range it deals 56105 dmg. At max range it deals 16695 dmg.
The CD has the broadside equivalent of 16 rails. At all ranges it deals 47120 dmg. At fore and aft arcs it has the equivalent of 12 rails, dealing 35340 dmg.
Unless numbers have changed rails do not "do not even have 1/3 the damage of particle cannons".
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2012-06-06 19:52
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On 2012-06-06 18:26, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
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On 2012-06-06 05:40, iwancoppa wrote:
The problem is,
the humble CD lacks capability to keep distance, unlike the ICC cruisers. Personally I think it is a great cannon boat at range, But range is a cheap commodity in darkspace.
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The ICC aren't supposed to indefinitely keep range. If they could keep range forever they would win all engagement
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then how can ICC be called the RANGED Fraction if they arent supposed to keep range?
thats the problem with ICC gunboats. they HAVE to keep range to fulfil their role, but keeping range is very hard
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-06-06 21:51
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On 2012-06-06 08:48, Azreal wrote:
This doesn't suprise me, and gets back to what I was saying before; You don't know how to fly or use some of your ships, and apparently have very little tactical prowess.
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Actually I'm just very paranoid and hate to take unnecessary chances.
The aspect that you can lose rank by dying, and because dying in this game hits like an emotional sledgehammer for me (I don't know why) keeps me away from the game when there's very few on and away from any 1 on 1 fights
I mean, taking on people that have played 10 times longer than me just seems foolish, if anything.
Sure it's a challenge, but for them it's just a cakewalk, so I prefer to avoid humiliation 
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-06-06 22:13 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2012-06-06 23:10
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On 2012-06-06 19:52, Soulless. wrote:
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On 2012-06-06 18:26, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
The ICC aren't supposed to indefinitely keep range. If they could keep range forever they would win all engagements
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Then how can ICC be called the RANGED faction if they aren't supposed to keep range?
Thats the problem with ICC gunboats. They HAVE to keep range to fulfil their role, but keeping range is very hard.
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First off the ICC aren't a long range faction, they are simply a faction that excells better at long range compared to the other two factions. They are not penalized for engaging in close quarters, rather the enemy gains benefits from doing so.
Second of all they are supposed to maintain range long enough to win or put up a fighting chance in the resulting CQC duel.
There are three basic scenarios with others in between these extremes
A. ICC hold range long enough to drive off UGTO before UGTO can get close, complete ICC victory.
B. ICC holds range for some time, wearing down the UGTO before the CQC ensues. UGTO has more CQC strength but the wearing down from the ICC pushes the battle to an even fight. Both sides have a chance of winning.
C. UGTO close distance and overpowers ICC. ICC put up a fight but the sheer CQC firepower of UGTO allow them to rout ICC. Complete UGTO victory.
IF ICC were to be able to infinitely maintain range. All the battles would result in A, complete ICC victories. If ICC could very easily maintain distance then other factions would have to have much more long range firepower to even stand a fighting chance. Case in point: Old ICC missile planet hug when PD would only shoot down one missile per second regardless of number of lasers on PD. Even without an overwhelming number of depos a few ADs next to the planet ensured that by the time ANY large ship reached the planet and MDs the ADs just had to alpha once or twice to destroy them. This meant that UGTO would be forced back, either causing a stalemate where ICC dare not venture forth or a very long siege by UGTO which usually failed due to UGTO not liking protracted combat over long ranges. Add a few CDs for suppressive fire on smaller targets and you had the era of missile spam planet hug. Of course not as immovable as old UGTO Station depo spam but ICC missile planet hug had much more kill potential.
Current combat is balanced around ICC not being able to maintain distance indefinitely. That is why their CQC does not completely suck. As mentioned before even at point blank range the CD stands a fighting chance against the BD, however from a 1000 gu approach the CD can and will force the BD away before it can engage in CQC. Fleet battles are more complicated but having ADs in front can and will force the UGTO to focus the ADs, and with smart positioning will allow you to lay down amazing suppressive fire from any range.
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2012-06-07 01:19
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On 2012-06-06 23:10, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
First off the ICC aren't a long range faction, they are simply a faction that excells better at long range compared to the other two factions. They are not penalized for engaging in close quarters, rather the enemy gains benefits from doing so.
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that is just another wording for LONG range. stop and think just for a moment please.
ICC is designed to engage targets at longer range Hints longer range weapons and no fall off. While the other two are designed to fight at closer range hints fall off and shorter range weapons. Thus ICC is a Long range fraction because it gain benifits from staying at long range.
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Second of all they are supposed to maintain range long enough to win or put up a fighting chance in the resulting CQC duel.
There are three basic scenarios with others in between these extremes
A. ICC hold range long enough to drive off UGTO before UGTO can get close, complete ICC victory.
B. ICC holds range for some time, wearing down the UGTO before the CQC ensues. UGTO has more CQC strength but the wearing down from the ICC pushes the battle to an even fight. Both sides have a chance of winning.
C. UGTO close distance and overpowers ICC. ICC put up a fight but the sheer CQC firepower of UGTO allow them to rout ICC. Complete UGTO victory.
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umm those are not that likely to happen. There has been times where ICC has had dictors 10 players and held range vs a ugto force of 6 and got completly creamed in the end. and opposites have happened.
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IF ICC were to be able to infinitely maintain range. All the battles would result in A, complete ICC victories. If ICC could very easily maintain distance then other factions would have to have much more long range firepower to even stand a fighting chance. Case in point: Old ICC missile planet hug when PD would only shoot down one missile per second regardless of number of lasers on PD. Even without an overwhelming number of depos a few ADs next to the planet ensured that by the time ANY large ship reached the planet and MDs the ADs just had to alpha once or twice to destroy them. This meant that UGTO would be forced back, either causing a stalemate where ICC dare not venture forth or a very long siege by UGTO which usually failed due to UGTO not liking protracted combat over long ranges. Add a few CDs for suppressive fire on smaller targets and you had the era of missile spam planet hug. Of course not as immovable as old UGTO Station depo spam but ICC missile planet hug had much more kill potential.
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see above point.
all the change in PD did was kill ICCs dependency of missles and make it so you had to have multiple missle boats fireing on a single target.
Plus you are VASTLY overestimating the older missle dread and ITs. I have been in quite a few defences of fargo rock where 5 MDs sat and fired on 4 ugto shrooms (2 SS and 2 BS) only to get sent running cuz the shrooms got in range
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Current combat is balanced around ICC not being able to maintain distance indefinitely. That is why their CQC does not completely suck. As mentioned before even at point blank range the CD stands a fighting chance against the BD, however from a 1000 gu approach the CD can and will force the BD away before it can engage in CQC. Fleet battles are more complicated but having ADs in front can and will force the UGTO to focus the ADs, and with smart positioning will allow you to lay down amazing suppressive fire from any range.
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how narrow minded can you get? Combat has to be a balance of ALL THREE FRACTIONS not just focusing on one.
The CD does not stand a chance up close with a BD, The BDs Burst damage is much higher than the CDs Plus because defences have not been changed yet the higher offence means the CD will have to run or die.
Your forgetting one very important thing. The Very small player base ICC holds
--End Rant
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2012-06-07 02:17
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On 2012-06-07 01:19, Soulless. wrote:
that is just another wording for LONG range. stop and think just for a moment please.
ICC is designed to engage targets at longer range Hints longer range weapons and no fall off. While the other two are designed to fight at closer range hints fall off and shorter range weapons. Thus ICC is a Long range fraction because it gain benifits from staying at long range.
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Again they are not long range, a real long ranged faction would have reverse-falloff or other penalizing factors when getting into close range. Subjectively to the three factions it is a long range faction, in a vacuum they are not.
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umm those are not that likely to happen. There has been times where ICC has had dictors 10 players and held range vs a ugto force of 6 and got completly creamed in the end. and opposites have happened.
see above point.
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Player skill affects all battles, as always. In a scenario where both sides have equal skill and said skill level is sufficiently high to make use of every advantage they currently have those three scenarios are very likely to happen.
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all the change in PD did was kill ICCs dependency of missles and make it so you had to have multiple missle boats fireing on a single target.
Plus you are VASTLY overestimating the older missle dread and ITs. I have been in quite a few defences of fargo rock where 5 MDs sat and fired on 4 ugto shrooms (2 SS and 2 BS) only to get sent running cuz the shrooms got in range
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Killing a dependency of missiles implies that they have been buffed and nerfed in a way that makes them no longer use missiles. Also focus firing on one target was supposed to be the goal in the first place. I might also take the chance to remind you that any defence of Fargo Rock very very likely occured after the PD changes, where the shroom's huge laser loads can PD effectively. Also old shroom layouts had the do it all syndrome, where they could replace a fleet in diversity. The missile dread did not have that syndrome and required supporting ships of a different class.
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how narrow minded can you get? Combat has to be a balance of ALL THREE FRACTIONS not just focusing on one.
The CD does not stand a chance up close with a BD, The BDs Burst damage is much higher than the CDs Plus because defences have not been changed yet the higher offence means the CD will have to run or die.
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The CD does stand a chance against the BD when factoring player skill. However I will speak in a vacuum:
The CD can inflict more damage and destruction before going down at point blank vs a BD than a BD can inflict on a CD at max range. This is likely because the devs have acknowledged that keeping range indefinitely is near impossible at this current state.
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Your forgetting one very important thing. The Very small player base ICC holds
--End Rant
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Games should never balance around playerbases.
Also playerbases fluctuate, for instance near the time of the infamous missile spam era before the PD changes most Vices went to ICC because all you had to do was use the MD and press space.
After PD changes UGTO got much more infamous with shroom spam and depo hugging, where station users just had to rotate and press space.
For a while Kluth was extremely stong with the insta no recharge cloak, sporting the highest K/Ds out of any faction.
The Devs have tried hard to achieve balance in game, fixing each of these imbalances to great effect. The current state of the game is in my opinion almost perfectly balanced, if not lacking in players on all three sides.
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