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extra things |
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2012-06-30 12:11
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On 2012-06-30 10:48, µOmniVore wrote:
if you have something that can kill a dread make it so it can't do it solo maybe 5 frigates can kill a dread it is best to balance stuff out |
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Where have you been hiding? That's exactly the way it was before they were nerfed.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2012-06-30 12:48
Missile frigs were op because PD didn't work. There was no way to negate a frig's damage unless you all bunched together to share beam coverage because PD worked per ship back then instead of laser count. Even then some would have gotten through. To put this in perspective imagine if the current MD and SS missiles could not be pd'd. Also they were antifun in that the joy a frig user got from hitting m, going 10 gu, and space bar mashing was much less than the enemy which is now forced to split a fleet comp specifically designed to counter these frigs. I'm not talking a balanced team comp as in 3 dessie, 2 cruiser, 4 dread, 2 stations. I'm talking about a comp that basically has to babysit any large ship and hunt down frigs at the same time in order to get anywhere. You may argue that a balanced team comp is better, which it is, but the enemy now ironically has bad ship comp in that all of them are using frigs. This indicates a problem similar to "dreadspace". No one ship should completely dictate what the enemy uses.
Currently missile frigs, if buffed back, would not be op because you can actually pd the missiles.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-06-30 15:13
Quote:
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On 2012-06-30 12:48, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Missile frigs were op because PD didn't work. There was no way to negate a frig's damage unless you all bunched together to share beam coverage because PD worked per ship back then instead of laser count. Even then some would have gotten through. To put this in perspective imagine if the current MD and SS missiles could not be pd'd. Also they were antifun in that the joy a frig user got from hitting m, going 10 gu, and space bar mashing was much less than the enemy which is now forced to split a fleet comp specifically designed to counter these frigs. I'm not talking a balanced team comp as in 3 dessie, 2 cruiser, 4 dread, 2 stations. I'm talking about a comp that basically has to babysit any large ship and hunt down frigs at the same time in order to get anywhere. You may argue that a balanced team comp is better, which it is, but the enemy now ironically has bad ship comp in that all of them are using frigs. This indicates a problem similar to "dreadspace". No one ship should completely dictate what the enemy uses.
Currently missile frigs, if buffed back, would not be op because you can actually pd the missiles.
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They weren't OP even back then. Each one had, what, 3? 4 missiles? It took a minimum of 5-6 Frigates to damage an EAD or BD without it being repaired faster than it was being damaged by a couple SS worth of drones, let alone a planet full of depots. On the couple occasions UGTO tried using large numbers of Harriers they were utterly shut down by a few Scouts and a single Interdictor, something I remember seeing UGTO do against MFs a total of one time, and it didn't work because a few of us just hopped into our own Scouts and chased them off.
Yes, ICC had a bad ship composition of all Frigates, but the reason so many people used them is it was the only effective ship vs. planet hugging and station spam that ICC had. MDs would get point jumped and killed, the CD was a joke, HC and Destroyers didn't put out nearly enough damage, Fighters were useless and so were Carriers by extension, and AC/AD flat out got massacred because they had to get too close.
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Adapt or die.
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µOmniVore
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 13, 2006
Posts: 171
| Posted: 2012-06-30 17:39
Quote:
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On 2012-06-30 15:13, Talien wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-06-30 12:48, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Missile frigs were op because PD didn't work. There was no way to negate a frig's damage unless you all bunched together to share beam coverage because PD worked per ship back then instead of laser count. Even then some would have gotten through. To put this in perspective imagine if the current MD and SS missiles could not be pd'd. Also they were antifun in that the joy a frig user got from hitting m, going 10 gu, and space bar mashing was much less than the enemy which is now forced to split a fleet comp specifically designed to counter these frigs. I'm not talking a balanced team comp as in 3 dessie, 2 cruiser, 4 dread, 2 stations. I'm talking about a comp that basically has to babysit any large ship and hunt down frigs at the same time in order to get anywhere. You may argue that a balanced team comp is better, which it is, but the enemy now ironically has bad ship comp in that all of them are using frigs. This indicates a problem similar to "dreadspace". No one ship should completely dictate what the enemy uses.
Currently missile frigs, if buffed back, would not be op because you can actually pd the missiles.
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They weren't OP even back then. Each one had, what, 3? 4 missiles? It took a minimum of 5-6 Frigates to damage an EAD or BD without it being repaired faster than it was being damaged by a couple SS worth of drones, let alone a planet full of depots. On the couple occasions UGTO tried using large numbers of Harriers they were utterly shut down by a few Scouts and a single Interdictor, something I remember seeing UGTO do against MFs a total of one time, and it didn't work because a few of us just hopped into our own Scouts and chased them off.
Yes, ICC had a bad ship composition of all Frigates, but the reason so many people used them is it was the only effective ship vs. planet hugging and station spam that ICC had. MDs would get point jumped and killed, the CD was a joke, HC and Destroyers didn't put out nearly enough damage, Fighters were useless and so were Carriers by extension, and AC/AD flat out got massacred because they had to get too close.
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^^ this is nice had another idea how about the community can vote for an old layout OMG i hate the new MD layout it sucks to high hell i would rather have a laggy server than the crappy missle battles of today.
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2012-06-30 19:05
HEY back on topic please!!!
extra garrage space:
Self explanitory
1 slot for 2500 creds a month, each slot increases the cost by 2500
Be added as a player drop so people who cant pay have a chance to get it
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2012-06-30 19:07
Quote:
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On 2012-06-30 15:13, Talien wrote:
They weren't OP even back then. Each one had, what, 3? 4 missiles? It took a minimum of 5-6 Frigates to damage an EAD or BD without it being repaired faster than it was being damaged by a couple SS worth of drones, let alone a planet full of depots.
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The main reason the dreads were camping at said depo planets and station spamming back then was so the dreads don't instantly get popped. It's a two way street: By using MFs you force a planet hug. UGTO, on the other hand, couldn't break anyone's planet hugs except possibly Kluth. By the time they reach the planet the MD's would have already wore them down to bits. Hence the PD changes and UGTO Armor buffs a while later.
Quote:
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On the couple occasions UGTO tried using large numbers of Harriers they were utterly shut down by a few Scouts and a single Interdictor, something I remember seeing UGTO do against MFs a total of one time, and it didn't work because a few of us just hopped into our own Scouts and chased them off.
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The main deadly power of the MF was the insane 600-1000gu parabolic arc in which they fired. This, combined with the broken pd system made it so the only intercept paths were next to the frig or next to the target, and even then you pd maybe one or two missiles out of the 20 that the 5 frigs launced in a volley. You literally had to have twice as many ships as MFs to PD all missiles. Also a Picket Dessy had no chance of catching up to the MF. Harriers, on the other hand, fired their missiles on the plane all ships travel on. This made watching out for FF and enemy PD much, much harder as an Escort Dessie could intercept missiles anywhere on their path. You could argue that same plane firing made it easier to hit small ships, but the purpose of the Harrier was not to try to hunt small ships with missiles. Also the UGTO small ships will usually lose against ICC small ships because in small ships the name of the game is maneuverability; most guns pointed forward which means anytime ICC could force UGTO to use small ships, they won as eventually, if both pilots are equally skilled, ICC would get on the UGTO's tail. (remember this was also before armor buffs so ICC essentially only had 10-5% less hp at the beginning of a fight, regen compensates as the fight goes on) There was a reason most UGTO didn't use small ships other than "Obviously UGTO pilots can't adapt".
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Yes, ICC had a bad ship composition of all Frigates, but the reason so many people used them is it was the only effective ship vs. planet hugging and station spam that ICC had. MDs would get point jumped and killed, the CD was a joke, HC and Destroyers didn't put out nearly enough damage, Fighters were useless and so were Carriers by extension, and AC/AD flat out got massacred because they had to get too close.
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Didn't stop ICC from steamrolling UGTO after the MF nerfs, during the "equal sag experiment", and before the PD buffs and depot nerfs.
I would like to reiterate: Rebuffing the MF/Harrier in the current version would be okay as PD is no longer broken and smaller ships are more balanced. I would still prefer a super torp glass cannon frig that rewards skill: if he can get on your rear without dying he deserves to win.
Back on topic this discussion of missiles has led me to think of missile and fighter trail color enhancements.
[ This Message was edited by: SpaceAdmiral on 2012-06-30 19:08 ]
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