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ECM / ECCM |
Fatal Perihelion
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 308
|  Posted: 2013-03-03 11:20
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On 2013-03-02 10:15, Ravendark wrote:
why people dont use EW?
why people fly mostly combat?
why is everybody driving their beloved dreads?
BECASUE we, players, have nothing better to do than be a wise smartasses about everything, new player (or old) read what we have to say. so if we say "ugto is insta pop faction" or "oh ew suck" or "oh dreads are best ships" or "small ships are too weak" and so on... people who read that kind of statment and arent so often in the game to conbfirm that for themselfs, will take these statemenst as valid and will act according to them. there fore, not use ew, fly dreads, quit ugto...and so on.
another thing why all that is as it is... its because SOME people forget this is a GAME and purpose of the game is to have FUN. (you know fun, what activity that gives you excitment, thrill, adrenaline, makes you happy and such...? look up a dictionary)
steamrolling the enemy with heavyest ships possible, outgunning and outnumbering them has little fun. well... it will discourage the opposing team and they will quit, so there you go have fun huging enemy planets and turning around like a ballet dancers with your dread. driven by EGOs desire to dominate, to be above all others. that, my friends, is the source of problems that are torturing darkspace.
limit 3 dreads per faction.
i know its a bit off topic, but limiting some things may force players to go for support/ew/other classes of ships.
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Yes you are a little off topic, only refering to "why no more E-war ships".
Fun is a good point! There is not much fun if there is no goal to achieve.
You see there is no real task in this game beside earning prestige. So players make their own goals by invading enemy territory, which forces the enemy to react to the invasion if they care and this is how a battle starts and with more numbers these battles even evolve.
Now if you are outnumbered against a bunch of Dreads, that would be the moment to fly a pesky cruiser. Its just commen sence, you can invade with a pack of cruisers aswell but will you beat the ai and capture something?
If you hate dreads that much you could just punish them by outmaneuvering them with your dessy or cruiser, this could be YOUR goal and fun in DarkSpace.
If you are vs Kluth Dreads, cruiser wont do much i think, so good luck then.
One could try to limit the MV to 3 Dreads per faction, but tbh i am impressed how good this game works as it is now, regarding that there is always an answer to the enemy which gives this game a randomish flavour.
Dreads or not its more about the numbers imo, so the bigger problem to me is factionhopping.
Maybe one could be locked to one faction for 24 hours as soon as he hits a certain rank like "Admiral".
[ This Message was edited by: Fatal Perihelion on 2013-03-03 11:26 ]
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Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
| Posted: 2013-03-03 22:16
ECM/ECCM is unused because it is, effectively, useless.
Human factions view it as a way to counter cloak. This is a serious issue in game balance, as the Kluth forces are balanced around being able to cloak... anything that changes the ability of the Kluth to cloak is changing the game balance.
A simple showing of this is the 1.483 beacon. The beacon completely negated the ability of an entire faction... and the kluth were given nothing to compensate... not even a reciprocal weapon. Where was the Kluth Beacon that turned off shields and drained power to zero?
As for ECM and ECCM as counters to one another, there is zero value. Very few ships have the ability to get to low sig near any meaningful strategic location. Even those that can have little reason to do so... the ships are visible period at any effective range.
Even if the scout or frigate can get zero sig, weapons range, and still be invisible, the level mechanic makes the weapons of such ships dubious at best... they can kill nothing, or even really affect the battle even in numbers.
And, as for the useless drivel spouted about being outnumbered by dreads is a good time to fly smaller ships and using manuverablility to annoy the enemy... you are incompetent or a flat liar. I mean that with all the hostility and disrepect the printed word can muster, and a good bit more.
At anytime, one of the dreads can close jump you, completely negating any advantage of range, speed, manuverability, or flying skill. Few ships can survive even one volley, and the dread gets serveral before a ship can gain enough distance to make dodging a viable choice. If you are outnumbered, the close jumping just happens more frequently.
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2013-03-03 23:21
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On 2013-03-03 22:16, Chopped Liver wrote:
ECM/ECCM is unused because it is, effectively, useless.
Human factions view it as a way to counter cloak. This is a serious issue in game balance, as the Kluth forces are balanced around being able to cloak... anything that changes the ability of the Kluth to cloak is changing the game balance.
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Right now ping semi works, it makes it a bit of a challenge for cloaked bugs to sneak up super close. Is this a balance issue? no, look at other games and you will see there will always be an effective counter to cloak. 
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On 2013-03-03 22:16, Chopped Liver wrote:
And, as for the useless drivel spouted about being outnumbered by dreads is a good time to fly smaller ships and using manuverablility to annoy the enemy... you are incompetent or a flat liar. I mean that with all the hostility and disrepect the printed word can muster, and a good bit more.
At anytime, one of the dreads can close jump you, completely negating any advantage of range, speed, manuverability, or flying skill. Few ships can survive even one volley, and the dread gets serveral before a ship can gain enough distance to make dodging a viable choice. If you are outnumbered, the close jumping just happens more frequently.
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I think you need to figure out how to fly buddy. Couple cruisers can tear up kluth dreads. I know both my ICC cruisers can easily fly out of alpha range of enhanced siphons and mandi's and not be hulled. Plus if you are constantly ejumping you should be very hard to kill as the enemy cannot maintain close range.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-03-04 01:20
Brut.
He speaks of dreads leapfrogging you right after you e-jump. What dreads do is to ejump your cruiser and alpha you. Then wait for you to short jump. The second dread will jump on top of you right after you exit.
Most of the time, unless you're at full speed, you'll take massive damage from the 2nd/3rd dread. Maybe even go pop.
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2013-03-04 01:25
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On 2013-03-04 01:20, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Brut.
He speaks of dreads leapfrogging you right after you e-jump. What dreads do is to ejump your cruiser and alpha you. Then wait for you to short jump. The second dread will jump on top of you right after you exit.
Most of the time, unless you're at full speed, you'll take massive damage from the 2nd/3rd dread. Maybe even go pop.
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by the third dread your JD "Should" be charged and you can escape. if your facing projectile heavy ships, learning the fireing times and then learning to dodge before the shots are even fired can keep you alive for quite a long time.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-03-04 01:52
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On 2013-03-04 01:25, Brutality wrote:
by the third dread your JD "Should" be charged and you can escape. if your facing projectile heavy ships, learning the fireing times and then learning to dodge before the shots are even fired can keep you alive for quite a long time.
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Depends on the pointjumper. The first dread is basically the "triggerman". He jumps you, and does some damage, forcing you to ejump out completely, or short jump.
If you do short jump, the 2nd, 3rd (and so on) dreads will jump you successively. The best way to do it would be within seconds of each other, where dreads 3 onwards can see your flight direction and then coordinate jumps within seconds of each other to keep a steady stream of alpha goodness on you.
You may escape if you're fast enough or have enough defense. But most ships cruisers and below would go pop by the 3rd of 4th dread. Your JD won't be able to charge up that fast.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-03-04 01:53 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-03-04 14:44
That's only if they think of it and are competent enough to pull it off properly. I've had multiple people try to leapfrog me on numerous occasions and I can't remember ever dying from it, but usually it's just one or two people who point jump from full stop so they don't have to bother trying to figure in the speed variable and only get off 1 alpha before the target gets out of range.
Though yes, if you get 3-4 well coordinated players in assault type Dreadnoughts who know how to plot a point jump so they land within 50 GU of their target while going full speed it would be a bad day for whoever they're after.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-03-04 20:44
PJ'ing at speed and estimating the shortfall and compensating the exit point is all part of the art and fun. Comes with experience.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-03-05 05:57
ECM, ECCM, beacons and cloak all used to inter-relate in a real EW system. Since the cloak was changed from being an ECM-type device, everything on EW has seemed more like a workaround. Being able to alter the battlefield through EW was more effective vs cloak than pinging ever was.
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2013-03-05 09:31
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On 2013-03-04 20:44, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
PJ'ing at speed and estimating the shortfall and compensating the exit point is all part of the art and fun. Comes with experience.
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But that is also the thing that bring Dreads in to even more use. Because when they can just Point jump a small ship, say a destoryer, It completly nulifies the range, speed and maneuvering advantage that ship had in its dodging potental.
Things wernt so bad when jumping at speed would damage your JD...maybe bring that back to a degree
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-03-05 11:29
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On 2013-03-05 09:31, Soulless. wrote:
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On 2013-03-04 20:44, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
PJ'ing at speed and estimating the shortfall and compensating the exit point is all part of the art and fun. Comes with experience.
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But that is also the thing that bring Dreads in to even more use. Because when they can just Point jump a small ship, say a destoryer, It completly nulifies the range, speed and maneuvering advantage that ship had in its dodging potental.
Things wernt so bad when jumping at speed would damage your JD...maybe bring that back to a degree
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Well, the dev team has discussed putting a min range for jumps to discourage this kinda point jumping. I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to implement and will probably come in a not too distant future along with the balance changes.
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Valiant Wolf
Admiral
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 15
| Posted: 2013-03-05 12:17
Sticking to the OP, I've tried all the new ewar loadouts and to be fair I'm only ever going to use the flat ECM/ECCM. Flying around invisible in a Harrier Frigate and launching anti-radar missiles on scenario is fun, I won't lie, but it's useless on any larger ships. You can't single-handedly reduce their signature enough to gain a strategic advantage, but in that same light you can't single-handedly raise the signature of nearby enemies enough for it to make much difference whether or not they are packing ECM.
Granted, this may be deliberately designed so larger ships stick together and cover eachother with ECM/ECCM, but all this does is makes smaller ships even more useless in fights than they currently are because the smaller ships can now be detected on hit-and-runs AND can be caught out by a group of invisible dreadnoughts.
And to this I see no real solution, if anything it should be the smaller ships that have less Ewar hardpoints so THEY are encouraged to group up, but in doing this they lose what little edge they have 1v1 vs larger ships because now they can be detected more easily.
Anyway, I digress. I loved the old ping, as it gave humans an advantage over luth sneak attacks. Granted, it was temperamental and an exploit, but it was almost a necessary evil. You have a good idea that there are luth nearby, you ping and get a glimpse of where they are and where they're going for a split-second. Should you run, the luth will have to call off the attack, if you fire on their position (and this would have to be manually) then the luth would probably try to flee or reposition.
You're in a dark room and you're terrified of spiders and you have a lighter that's out of fuel. You'll strike the lighter and use the spark to momentarily get a glimpse of your surroundings, and if you think you see a spider, you'll do something about it. Without pinging, using ewar against cloak is like trying to use a flashlight so dim it might as well be turned off; it won't help at all.
I don't think the new ewar has done anything constructive. For people flying solo and wanting to try sneak attacks, luth is still the only option, and for people who don't want to fly bricks, ewar makes smaller ships in no way more viable.
Right, that's enough of me rambling...
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Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
| Posted: 2013-03-05 12:19
It doesn't need a minimum range... it needs a randomizer.
It makes reasonable sense that some player ships, such as Command Dreads and Stations, have a "beacon" that allows other players of the same faction to jump to them with accuracy. One would guess that friendly planets and all jumpgates would also make use of such technology.
However, jumps on the fly to unoccupied space, or the space currently occupied by an enemy starship? That is probably as inaccurate as space travel is likely to be.
Make the chosen destination the center point of a circle, and the ship exits hyperjump somewhere inside the circle.
You want a USE for EWAR? Make it affect size of the circle.
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Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2013-03-05 14:03
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On 2013-03-05 12:19, Chopped Liver wrote:
Make the chosen destination the center point of a circle, and the ship exits hyperjump somewhere inside the circle.
You want a USE for EWAR? Make it affect size of the circle.
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this is an interesting idea. not saying its a good one, or a bad one, or even if its remotely feasible. but its an interesting idea
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GunsOfHonor
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 31, 2011
Posts: 191
| Posted: 2013-03-05 15:44
[quote]
On 2013-02-28 14:55, Fatal Perihelion wrote:
I want the ole ECCM back, the sonar ping. With some experienced pilots it was a fun and a fair weapon vs Kluth
yes.....
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