| Author |
Some Gameplay Thoughts |
Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
|  Posted: 2013-03-21 14:27
Yeah! DEATH BEACONS!!!
Of course, the Kluth then have to be given beacons that immediately drain your power to zero for however long, and sets all your gadgets into recharge.
That way, we can kill that dread that killed our buddy... no jumping away or shooting for you!
IE, Beacons are and always will be a bad plan. Quit that crap.
_________________
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-03-21 19:12
Quote:
|
On 2013-03-21 12:30, Novacat wrote:
I would have no problems with buffing up the Kluth armor, giving the Kluth some real PD, and giving the Kluth some more variety in missile ships if it means adding some possiblity of being able to track down and kill a wounded Kluth ship, or engage a Kluth fleet before it can get within beam distance of the missile/fighter ships.
|
|
Going that direction is basically making the 3 factions more similar to each other. (ie. Same ships, different skins)
The 3 factions were designed to be disparate in characteristics, yet somehow still remaining balanced in some ways. But we're not talking about balance at an individual ship level here. An ICC MD will never be able to survive up close against a Siphon. Ditto an Agincourt with vs an AD, or a Ganglia vs an EAD.
The game is designed to be balanced when the right mix of ships are put up against each other. You have a choice of long range ships against each other for human factions, but the ability to point jump negates that. Similarly Kluth cloak can negate that long range advantage. So the solution is to either switch over to brawlers (the EAD/AD in equal numbers will trump Kluth dreads in combat every single time).
We can't throw this entire balance out of the window just for the sole reason of "killing a wounded ship, not allowing him to escape". Wounded Kluth dreads CAN be killed. Once they're hurt, and low on energy, and you've fluxed all their gadgets.... including cloak... to hell. They're sitting ducks if their JD is not charged. The question is whether the pilot is cautious/skilled enough not to get himself into that situation.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-03-21 19:13 ]
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
Wessssss
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2006
Posts: 31
From: Midwest USA
| Posted: 2013-03-21 23:39
I've never logged out just because of dico, but recently I always do when Kluth player Dreds are around.
As a player who does not have a dred yet I rely on teammates, planets, and ai, to battle and be able to survive. I have no problem engaging player UGTO dreds or stations or anything being as it's an actual fight. They have the firepower and defense, but I can still maneuver better then them and kite usually.
I can't do that with the Kluth. It's always insta-death from Dreds cloak. or poke from smaller ships and cloak away. That is no fun at all, so instead of wasting my time sitting around or dying I log off.
Most games I've played with a form of invisablity have been nerfing it with a few methods.
1. amount of time able to stay invis (usually a max of 30 seconds)
2. cooldown to be able to invis again. ( usually around 15 seconds)
3. some form of beacon or ward that can spot invis units for limited time
I get that cloak is a huge part of the Kluth, so for the most part the above methods probably wouldn't be the solution for all parties. so I have an idea of my own.
My proposal
1. Cloak drain energy
When I first played as Kluth the first thing I tested with this. Upon seeing that you lose no energy cloaked and the time between cloaks is like 5 seconds I immediately condemned ever trying to fight a player Kluth. There is just no winning unless they allow themselves to die. With being cloaked draining energy if they plan to attack, they would not be able to sit around cloaked all day, they would be visable and the coordinate and cloak. Then the other faction could have a heads up that something might be happening. Also would help nerf them escaping fights via cloak as they would have expended a lot of energy in a fight, therefore they might run out if they cloak causing them to decloak and be able to be killed. also staying cloaked for long periods would drastically reduce ability to fight as there would be little energy for weapons.
But that would make the Kluth piss energy all the time. which leads me to the second part
2. Increase amount of energy to Kluth ships.
Seeing as there main weapon would constantly be draining their energy it would make sense to give them more of it. I could easily see doubling the kluth energy per ship a great starting point. It would allow a buffer for cloak while still holding the cap for it's use.
I think this one thing would make cloak something you have to think about more when fighting as a Kluth. Do I cloak now to avoid detection for an attack, or do I save energy for the fight and stay visable? Do I leave a fight early to have enough energy to cloak away safely?
_________________
|
-DBS
Marshal
Joined: January 04, 2011
Posts: 204
From: St. Petersburg, FL
| Posted: 2013-03-22 01:02
We all started out this way, main reason I like luth, because when I was but a nub, luth dreads could 1 hit kill me... But, you can take out a luth dread with smaller craft. Just need to be aware of your surroundings 
Edit: BTW if your ICC, you should never be sitting still enough for a luth dread to creep up onto you...
[ This Message was edited by: -DBS on 2013-03-22 01:07 ]
_________________
|
Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2013-03-22 01:18
As a smaller ship fighting against the bigger dreads, your advantage is a smaller hit box with more speed and maneuverability. Keep your speed up and keep making course adjustments to make it hard to sneak up on you. Also keep that E-Jump ready in case they try to point jump you, just my 10 cents.
_________________
|
Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2013-03-22 11:12
Quote:
|
On 2013-03-21 19:12, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Going that direction is basically making the 3 factions more similar to each other. (ie. Same ships, different skins)
|
|
I have no problem with this. Difference is great as long as it still promotes good gameplay, UGTO and ICC are plenty different from eachother yet none of their mechanics promote bad gameplay, but if it cannot, then that difference ends up being a detriment to the game, not a bonus.
Quote:
|
The 3 factions were designed to be disparate in characteristics, yet somehow still remaining balanced in some ways. But we're not talking about balance at an individual ship level here. An ICC MD will never be able to survive up close against a Siphon. Ditto an Agincourt with vs an AD, or a Ganglia vs an EAD.
|
|
I never argued that. My argument is that, at the moment, the nature of the Kluth makes long-range ships immensely weaker in the metagame because the Kluth cloak allows them to basically walk past those ships long range brackets and get into the short range brackets where they are weak. What is the purpose of long-range ships when it is currently so easy to circumvent their greatest asset?
Quote:
|
The game is designed to be balanced when the right mix of ships are put up against each other. You have a choice of long range ships against each other for human factions, but the ability to point jump negates that. Similarly Kluth cloak can negate that long range advantage. So the solution is to either switch over to brawlers (the EAD/AD in equal numbers will trump Kluth dreads in combat every single time).
|
|
Note that this very thread also argues that point-jumping is also detrimental to gameplay. On top of this, the 'right mix of ships' as of now excludes long range ships, cloak and point jumping renders them completely useless and the new tier system is not going to change that whatsoever. Not sure about you, but I would like to see a return of the old Darkspace where shooting missiles at 3000-4000 gu is actually a viable tactic. Back when Kluth cloak was not absolute and there were ways to break kluth cloak.
Given, not to defend those methods of breaking Kluth cloak, ECCM as a cloak-breaker is extremely flawed as it effectively eliminates the ECM/ECCM dynamic for human factions, as it forces the choice of ECCM for the sole purpose of Kluth killing. If anything I feel that ECM/ECCM/Signature should have zero effect on cloak whatsoever.
Beacons were pretty good, though, and actually gave use to a catigory of ships that were seldom seen. The problem with beacons is that they were only useful in the 'hunting down damaged luth ships' sense and not actually stopping kluth from getting close.
I do have an interesting idea involving interdictors and minelayers, but I am not sure how doable it would be on the technical side, especially since Palestar is so shorthanded at the moment. Even if technical realities nix that solution, there are always other, simpler solutions that can be tried.
Quote:
|
We can't throw this entire balance out of the window just for the sole reason of "killing a wounded ship, not allowing him to escape". Wounded Kluth dreads CAN be killed. Once they're hurt, and low on energy, and you've fluxed all their gadgets.... including cloak... to hell. They're sitting ducks if their JD is not charged. The question is whether the pilot is cautious/skilled enough not to get himself into that situation.
|
|
Only a handful of UGTO ships have flux in any capability, and from personal experiance Flux does not significantly damage a ship's systems, especially compared to the old days of flux boats. Sure, that Kluth ship might be low on energy and have no charge on their JD and some superficial system damage, but cloak is currently absolute, as long as you do not stay in one spot for the point-shooters to get a lucky hit and find you, you should have no problem escaping. On top of this, the Kluth do have AHR which allows them to recover pretty fast from getting their systems nuked.
[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-03-22 11:26 ]
_________________
Ghostly Specter of an Ancient Past.
|
Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
| Posted: 2013-03-22 14:30
So... what you are saying is that you haven't played in years and have no clue what you are talking about?
I do not care what date is under your name, the "OLD DAYS" saw a range for IT missile of like 1200 gu tops. Cannons topped out close to 1k for the gauss, railguns and Particles were in the 700 range, and PSI had about 450.
The UGTO and ICC only lobbed missiles and fighters back and forth when they happened to be fighting on two planets that touched each other.
Ranges are longer now.
Last month, several series of battles proved the effectiveness of Long Rang ships like Missile Dreads. As long as the Missile Dreads could spread out around the stations, the Siphons are unable to do anything... If the Siphon stayed visible long enough to even think of a second shot, the station and other missile boats would destroy the Siphon. If they fired once and ran, they did no significant damage.
If you think the Missile Dread is a solopwnship... then yes, you are going to have problems with the K'luth or the EAD.
AHR has been severely nerfed from "the old days" for the express reason of making flux not a lolweapon. Really, I believe the change was to bring AHR more inline with balance post Cloak improvements =) In any case, your understanding of the current AHR is severely flawed.
I'm not sure how to phrase this in yet another way. You are not wrong about identifying some areas of trouble. Yet, your fixes seem to be worse than the problem, and worst of all, seem to be heavily predicated with an ANTI-K'luth bias. Unbiased solutions are usually best... solutions which boil down to "screw those guys, i hate 'em" are rarely useful.
_________________
|
The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
| Posted: 2013-03-22 14:36
Quote:
|
On 2013-03-22 14:30, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
So... what you are saying is that you haven't played in years and have no clue what you are talking about?
I do not care what date is under your name, the "OLD DAYS" saw a range for IT missile of like 1200 gu tops. Cannons topped out close to 1k for the gauss, railguns and Particles were in the 700 range, and PSI had about 450.
The UGTO and ICC only lobbed missiles and fighters back and forth when they happened to be fighting on two planets that touched each other.
Ranges are longer now.
|
|
05 to 08/09
IT missiles - 1750gu
Cannon - I suspect 1.7 to 1.2k from memory
Core Weapons - 2k
Used to include cannon and Core Weapons, still does on some planet clusters.
Ranges are shorter when compared to the time when the server used to max.
[ This Message was edited by: The Fridge on 2013-03-22 14:40 ]
_________________
|
Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2013-03-22 14:52
Quote:
|
On 2013-03-22 14:30, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
Last month, several series of battles proved the effectiveness of Long Rang ships like Missile Dreads. As long as the Missile Dreads could spread out around the stations, the Siphons are unable to do anything... If the Siphon stayed visible long enough to even think of a second shot, the station and other missile boats would destroy the Siphon. If they fired once and ran, they did no significant damage.
|
|
so the logical balance is 3 Mds and a station for 1 siphon? EG 3-4 longrange ship for 1 close range ship?
get equal number and the long range are outright screwed as it has basicly no way to keep the distance
i think just giving a mininal jump distance would do alot of good for the longrange ships and eleminate luth's point jump
_________________
19:33:51 [ZION]GothThug {C?}: "Zero..you are DS's hero"
|
-DBS
Marshal
Joined: January 04, 2011
Posts: 204
From: St. Petersburg, FL
| Posted: 2013-03-22 15:03
Use stat as meat shield blast stat. cloak. get behind MD blast md in 1-2 alphas. short jump. move to next md, uncloak blast md. and so on...
_________________
|
Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2013-03-22 16:00
Quote:
|
On 2013-03-22 14:30, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
Ranges are longer now.
|
|
Actually, ranges are shorter. Fridge already explained why.
Quote:
|
Last month, several series of battles proved the effectiveness of Long Rang ships like Missile Dreads. As long as the Missile Dreads could spread out around the stations, the Siphons are unable to do anything... If the Siphon stayed visible long enough to even think of a second shot, the station and other missile boats would destroy the Siphon. If they fired once and ran, they did no significant damage.
|
|
You need to be more specific, because your scenerio is awfully vague... how many MDs? How many Siphons? What assets did the ICC and Kluth have? Unless you give the specifics, your anecdote is completely useless for this conversation.
Quote:
|
AHR has been severely nerfed from "the old days" for the express reason of making flux not a lolweapon. Really, I believe the change was to bring AHR more inline with balance post Cloak improvements =) In any case, your understanding of the current AHR is severely flawed.
|
|
The 'old days', Flux was so bad that it reduced every component to 0%, including the AHR, which made it virtually worthless unless you were quick on your feet and managed to prioritize AHR for manual repair. Yes, AHR was nerf'd, but Flux was nerf'd a lot harder and AHR is still remarkably effective in fixing components.
However, it still does not discount the fact that present-day flux cannot even disable an ICC ship, which does not have the luxuries of AHR, how can you honestly argue that it hurts the Kluth?
_________________
Ghostly Specter of an Ancient Past.
|
Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
| Posted: 2013-03-23 07:59
Actually, the details are unimportant. Science is a zero sum game. To prove you wrong, all I need is one instance where you are wrong. The details are unimportant (to me.)
The details are very important to you because it helps you find where your theory breaks down. Make a new theory and I will be happy to disprove it for you.
And, you have to forgive me... I wasn't aware anyone refered to 1.483+ as the "the good old days".
_________________
|
Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2013-03-23 08:34
Quote:
|
On 2013-03-23 07:59, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
The details are very important to you because it helps you find where your theory breaks down. Make a new theory and I will be happy to disprove it for you.
|
|
On the contrary, the details are important because I want to know weither or not your criticism actually merits legitimate thought, or are you simply blowing smoke out of your rear. Considering you are refusing to provide specifics, I am going to lean towards the latter.
As for specifics...
4 Siphons vs 1 Support Station + 3 MDs. If you have the support station/MDs spread out, the Siphons can easily ambush one at a time and eventually force the entire force to withdraw or die, especially the Station which cannot easily withdraw like the MDs can. The Siphons will do far more damage, faster, than the MDs will. On top of this, the Kluth can eliminate the long-range firepower of at least one of the ICC ships so you will have the firepower of 4 Kluth siphons vs the firepower of 3 ICC ships.
Finally, I am pretty sure that Siphons individually do a lot more DPS than Missile Dreads.
So, I really do not see how the ICC can win that without either substantially outnumbering the Kluth, which makes it a bad/inefficient strategy to begin with, or massive incompetance on the Kluth side.
Again, this is not a faction vs faction balance problem, infact, countering Kluth is just plain easy when you have a blob of Assault Dreads whom can chew up and spit out a Siphon like nobody's business. My complaint is that the torpedo and beam niches are far more useful than the fighter and missile niches, which require you to somehow keep an enemy far away from you, are really not that useful at all, and that the Tier system is not going to change this at all.
[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-03-23 08:36 ]
_________________
Ghostly Specter of an Ancient Past.
|
Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
| Posted: 2013-03-23 22:19
I typed out the battle, but I erased it. Everyone who has played the game in the last month was there.
What is the point of trying to explain it to someone who hasn't played since... when?
_________________
|
Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2013-03-24 01:03
Want to fight the bugs? Push into their territory and force them to defend. Just make sure you have a support station and a sufficient number of dreads and cruisers to counter whatever pops up. 
_________________
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
