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 Author Some Gameplay Thoughts
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2013-03-24 03:07   
Quote:

On 2013-03-22 11:12, Novacat wrote:

I have no problem with this. Difference is great as long as it still promotes good gameplay, UGTO and ICC are plenty different from eachother yet none of their mechanics promote bad gameplay, but if it cannot, then that difference ends up being a detriment to the game, not a bonus.




Bad gameplay as you call it is relative and subjective. Some ppl enjoy hunting Kluth, others hate it, while others are neutral about it.

I'm not saying that all is perfect, or course. That's why "rebalance" is always in the dev log, and will continue to be so. With every patch, every new thing that is introduced; ships, weapons, enhancements, etc... there will always be some things that will fall through the cracks.

The cloak is here to stay, like it or not. K'Luth is here to stay. That's a given. So, please, carry on giving on your suggestions and feedback. But work with what we have, and not suggest things like removing a main faction feature. That's not gonna happen.


Quote:

I never argued that. My argument is that, at the moment, the nature of the Kluth makes long-range ships immensely weaker in the metagame because the Kluth cloak allows them to basically walk past those ships long range brackets and get into the short range brackets where they are weak. What is the purpose of long-range ships when it is currently so easy to circumvent their greatest asset?




Not just cloak, but pointjumping (as you mentioned) renders long-range ships vulnerable immediately. And honestly, both of these features/tactics will catch the LR ship by surprise.

But there is a counter. The LR ship simply has to jump out to survive. The other method would be to have a brawler/slugger escort.

I mean, let's be honest here. It is a given that long range units will always be at a disadvantage when faced with assault classes. Let's take Battletech/Mechwarrior as an example... since your nick is Novacat.

If you have a Timberwolf/Marauder suddenly drop in on a Catapult, what do you think the end result will be? Is it fair for the Catapult? Hell no. But that's life isn't it? Yes, there are no jumpdrives or cloak in MW. But then those are features in DS that you have to work with or work around with.


Quote:


Note that this very thread also argues that point-jumping is also detrimental to gameplay. On top of this, the 'right mix of ships' as of now excludes long range ships, cloak and point jumping renders them completely useless and the new tier system is not going to change that whatsoever. Not sure about you, but I would like to see a return of the old Darkspace where shooting missiles at 3000-4000 gu is actually a viable tactic. Back when Kluth cloak was not absolute and there were ways to break kluth cloak.

Given, not to defend those methods of breaking Kluth cloak, ECCM as a cloak-breaker is extremely flawed as it effectively eliminates the ECM/ECCM dynamic for human factions, as it forces the choice of ECCM for the sole purpose of Kluth killing. If anything I feel that ECM/ECCM/Signature should have zero effect on cloak whatsoever.

Beacons were pretty good, though, and actually gave use to a catigory of ships that were seldom seen. The problem with beacons is that they were only useful in the 'hunting down damaged luth ships' sense and not actually stopping kluth from getting close.

I do have an interesting idea involving interdictors and minelayers, but I am not sure how doable it would be on the technical side, especially since Palestar is so shorthanded at the moment. Even if technical realities nix that solution, there are always other, simpler solutions that can be tried.




Yes, pointjumping is detrimental to long range ships, because the brawlers can simply drop in on them and finish them off or force them away. Ditto cloak.

And my suggestion in a previous post was to add a minimum range so that ships that are using their long range capabilities (usually 1000 to 2000 gus) to lob missiles at the brawlers cannot be PJ'ed by the combatants in the immediate battlespace. This is already a GREAT help for their survival. It however, does not protect them from assailants jumping in from far away... and that should be the case. It's fair enough, isn't it?

However, and I recall, you were not for this idea of a minimum range because you said it would affect and inconvenience short range navigation like jumping from a planet to its moon. Something about hindering the movements of the heavy ships.

For this, I have to emphasize, the Dev team has been trying to find ways to encourage players to use all classes ships to get out of that "bigger is better" stigma. This means incentivizing the use of smaller ships, or disincentivizing the use of bigger ships.

By introducing a min jump range, it works both ways in fact. Smaller ships have a shorter JD charge duration. And if they cannot be close jumped by combatants in the immediate battlespace, then it does heaps for their survivability as well as attractiveness of use. Ditto the Long range ships like MDs.

If anything else, introducing a min jump range makes using assault dreads much harder. They lose their ability to point jump any ship with impunity, and have to be carefully committed to the battlespace.

This also applies to Kluth dreads. While they CAN cloak to surprise attack, their quarry can escape. Or other assailants can jump in at range and pound them. And they can't point jump these new assailants because of the minimum range. What can they do, but cloak and run or jump out.

So yes, they may not be any easier to kill, but at the same time, their ability to decloak, attack, and then point jump another ship nearby has also been diminished.

Like I said, you cannot ask too much to totally negate a faction's feature or advantage. We can only implement measures to balance things out or mitigate certain imbalance.


Quote:


Only a handful of UGTO ships have flux in any capability, and from personal experiance Flux does not significantly damage a ship's systems, especially compared to the old days of flux boats. Sure, that Kluth ship might be low on energy and have no charge on their JD and some superficial system damage, but cloak is currently absolute, as long as you do not stay in one spot for the point-shooters to get a lucky hit and find you, you should have no problem escaping. On top of this, the Kluth do have AHR which allows them to recover pretty fast from getting their systems nuked.




Suggestion noted.

Perhaps flux can be given a boost in a future patch. It could cause more systems damage. But then there will be a penalty for it... like a longer recharge time perhaps.

Otherwise, spammage of the flux can quickly disable any enemy ships to the point that it'd be overpowered. Or maybe stacking flux (3 UGTO ships in close proximity using flux one after another) can rapidly disable any enemy ships immediately.

Or we can also suggest that flux be more powerful, and have the same recharge cycle, but is indiscriminate about friendly fire (meaning that it will damage ALL ships within its AOE, friendlies included).

Again... balance issues. It has to be thought out carefully. Otherwise we'll come back to the same old issue later when Flux becomes the QQ 'Flavor of the month'.





[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-03-24 03:09 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
Posted: 2013-03-24 07:29   
Quote:

On 2013-03-24 03:07, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
The cloak is here to stay, like it or not. K'Luth is here to stay. That's a given. So, please, carry on giving on your suggestions and feedback. But work with what we have, and not suggest things like removing a main faction feature. That's not gonna happen.



I never asked to remove cloak, my suggestion was to make it less absolute, to give ICC/UGTO some way of suprising a cloaked Kluth, rather than the Kluth always having the initative advantage.

Infact, my primary complaint with Cloak is that it is a 100% reliable, 100% effective, zero chance of failure device. It always works, and that absoluteness is what is killing the metagame. It is sort of like how jumpdrives are absolutely reliable on point-jumps.

Quote:

But there is a counter. The LR ship simply has to jump out to survive. The other method would be to have a brawler/slugger escort.



Except if the only option for a long range ship is to run away, does that not make it a bad choice when you are trying to help your faction. Likewise, a brawler/slugger escort would be entirely meaningless as that would allow the Kluth to have two brawler/slugger types (again, comparisons should always be done with 1:1 ratio in mind, scenerios where one faction is allowed to outnumber the other are completely useless), they would still sneak into the LR ship's range, blast the brawler/slugger to pieces, and then attack the LR ship. The only time the LR ship ever becomes viable is if you enormously outnumber the enemy, but in that case you are better off getting more brawler/slugger types anyway.

Quote:

If you have a Timberwolf/Marauder suddenly drop in on a Catapult, what do you think the end result will be? Is it fair for the Catapult? Hell no. But that's life isn't it? Yes, there are no jumpdrives or cloak in MW. But then those are features in DS that you have to work with or work around with.



The diffrence is that, in Battletech, the Catapult has a chance of suprising the Timberwolf/Marauder before those mechs reach the Catapult. In Darkspace, pointjumping/cloak are 100% risk-free, instant ways of reaching long range ships. That is why long range ships are useless. If Timberwolves/Marauders had a 100% chance of successfully sneaking up on a Catapult, nobody would ever use the Catapult.

Quote:

And my suggestion in a previous post was to add a minimum range so that ships that are using their long range capabilities (usually 1000 to 2000 gus) to lob missiles at the brawlers cannot be PJ'ed by the combatants in the immediate battlespace. This is already a GREAT help for their survival. It however, does not protect them from assailants jumping in from far away... and that should be the case. It's fair enough, isn't it?



I disagree. While it also helps to prevent ships from jumping in from close up, it also hampers the missile ships ability to increase distance. Remember, a missile ship has to increase distance but not so much that it disengages from the fight. On top of this, your suggestion would need far greater jumpdrive recharge times for it to be actually useful.

Quote:

For this, I have to emphasize, the Dev team has been trying to find ways to encourage players to use all classes ships to get out of that "bigger is better" stigma. This means incentivizing the use of smaller ships, or disincentivizing the use of bigger ships.

By introducing a min jump range, it works both ways in fact. Smaller ships have a shorter JD charge duration. And if they cannot be close jumped by combatants in the immediate battlespace, then it does heaps for their survivability as well as attractiveness of use. Ditto the Long range ships like MDs.



Yes, but there should be ways of increasing the incentives without making the mechanics fustrating. For example, Interdictors would actually be great incentives for smaller ships, as it would give a target for smaller ships to hunt down and take out, but you guys removed it because of the fustration that mechanic added to the game.

Quote:

This also applies to Kluth dreads. While they CAN cloak to surprise attack, their quarry can escape. Or other assailants can jump in at range and pound them. And they can't point jump these new assailants because of the minimum range. What can they do, but cloak and run or jump out.



Well, they do survive at least. If ICC/UGTO lack use of their jumpdrive, or they get tracked down after an E-jump, they are dead.

Quote:

So yes, they may not be any easier to kill, but at the same time, their ability to decloak, attack, and then point jump another ship nearby has also been diminished.



If you are determined to go the min jump distance route, than I would recommend having it only apply in combat, which would not affect the 'planet to moon' jumps.

However, your min jump distance route will not fix the issue of Kluth hard-countering long-range ships, or Kluth having an extremely reliable escape button. It wont even affect long-range pointjump countering of ranged ships. I do feel that your opinion that close range ships should be able to point jump long range ships at all is an issue. As I said before, it gives close range ships too much initiative and it forces the long range ships to react instead of being able to proactively do something.

Quote:

Perhaps flux can be given a boost in a future patch. It could cause more systems damage. But then there will be a penalty for it... like a longer recharge time perhaps.



I was actually thinking having cloaking device be less effective if it takes damage, but that would only give UGTO a way of reliably hurting Kluth cloak, ICC would still be SOL...

[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-03-24 07:32 ]
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar


Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
Posted: 2013-03-24 07:40   
I think you're trying to enforce your thoughts on how it should be on the rest of us, and whilst suggestions and opinions are always welcome, everyone should always be reminded that an opinion is just an opinion.

I have fought players (Azreal comes to mind) in long range ships with a close range ship, and every time I jump them, they simple jump away and continue to pummel me.

You state that they are 100% risk free ways, but what you're asking for is an 100% risk free way to be a long range ship. Right now, you're "100% risk free" statement is entirely make believe. There is nothing (absolutely nothing) stopping you from repositioning yourself is someone comes at you (and we've designed it so that ranged ships can in most situations easily waltz away at full impulse whilst the attacking ship struggles to manage energy at speed).

Some players just want it easy and to sit at range, with minimal difficulty, gaining prestige and dealing damage; and if someone jumps them, they have time to jump away. Fortunately, this isn't make believe land, and that isn't the case.

This isn't World War I / II, it isn't Battletech (whatever that is), and it isn't Navyfield. It's DarkSpace, and we're happy with how the majority of the game works at the moment. No doubt cloak can use some tweaking, but it's not in relation to long range viability (which is entirely viable).

You can keep hammering on and on about this, but the development team is happy with where we are, and we're not going to be making changes to anything regarding long range viability, as it's perfectly viable now.
[ This Message was edited by: Pantheon on 2013-03-24 07:43 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2013-03-24 09:34   
Unfortunately you've got a one track mind Novacat.

You want long range ships to have a chance to survive against brawlers, and yet you can't accept a min range for jump drives.

You want cloak to be altered in such a way that they can be surprised?? (I seriously don't know how to accomplish this without it being ridiculous)

As Pantheon said, you obviously have your own ideas on how you want this game to be, but it ain't gonna happen because it goes against the design of the factions completely.

Cloak will ALWAYS give the user an advantage in being able to carry out a surprise attack, and the ability to slip away. The only way around this are measures or ideas like pinging, beaconing, ECCM increasing base sig, ECCM raising cloak energy requirements, etc etc.

Feel free to suggest countermeasures along the same basic lines. But anything outside that will probably not be considered.


Ship based interdictors, like it or not, are most probably not coming back. Too bad. It's just gonna be like that. You liked it. I liked it. But the majority of the players hated it. The dev team decided it to be that way, and that's they way it's gonna stay unless they say otherwise.

You still have planetary dico. And who knows, if we or someone can think up of another better way of how ship based or even plat based dicos can be implemented without making half the playerbase log out in frustration, then maybe.... just maybe... it will make a return. Until then, ummm NO.






[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-03-24 09:37 ]
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Fatal Mack Bolan(WildCards_58th)*COM*
Marshal
Fatal Squadron


Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 184
From: home planet: Exathra
Posted: 2013-03-24 10:28   
interesting idea.....perhaps some sort of random chance
( let me just plug in some example numbers here )
say on the order of 1 to 5% every
( let me just plug in some example numbers here ) 5 to 10 mins that cloak will make luth visible for ( let me just plug in some example numbers here ) something like 1 to 15 secs......comments from devs welcome.....and b4 i finish this post, let me know in terms of programming difficulty/implementation.....impossible, hard, possible , or will think about it/ discuss with faustus-rest of dev team and will get back to ya'.....


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Pantheon
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Palestar


Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
Posted: 2013-03-24 10:49   
Cloak already has a cooldown that limits when it can be activated again.

All of the stats are available online.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-03-24 14:00   
If cloak had a longer cooldown for Dreads and Stations it would do a lot to get people to stop complaining about it I'd think. Luth would still have their 100% effective cloak and first strike advantage, but instead of dumping a couple alphas then recloaking they'd need to jump out to reposition for the next strike unless they have a major numerical advantage.
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Brutality
Marshal

Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
Posted: 2013-03-24 16:44   
Quote:

On 2013-03-24 14:00, Talien wrote:
If cloak had a longer cooldown for Dreads and Stations it would do a lot to get people to stop complaining about it I'd think. Luth would still have their 100% effective cloak and first strike advantage, but instead of dumping a couple alphas then recloaking they'd need to jump out to reposition for the next strike unless they have a major numerical advantage.




Interesting Idea. Would actually require some prior planning to survive.
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral

Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
Posted: 2013-03-24 16:48   
Quote:

On 2013-03-24 14:00, Talien wrote:
If cloak had a longer cooldown for Dreads and Stations it would do a lot to get people to stop complaining about it I'd think. Luth would still have their 100% effective cloak and first strike advantage, but instead of dumping a couple alphas then recloaking they'd need to jump out to reposition for the next strike unless they have a major numerical advantage.




But then we couldn't have brawls at planets with dictors/depot/plats/massive AI spawns versus ICC or UGTO. A strategy that is so widely used that it would effectively cut on the engagements so as to make it all way overpowered.

The reason we can be bold and daring right now as to attack a station protected by all of the above is because we can recloak once we've drained our energy completely after a few volleys and believe me it happens hella fast in those situations even with carefull management and smart tactics. Take out that cloak possibility, and we're just sitting ducks with no energy, a massive hitbox with which you can't dodge crap and an impossible 1k gu to cross to be able to jump out while we can get point jumped by the enemy with all impunity and by UGTO, get our JD fluxed, both resulting in way too easy kills.

Really, really bad idea. Unless you want to make fighting and piloting Kluth boring beyond belief. Cause then we won't come get you at planets and will be hella reluctant to engage in deepspace, we'll just do like you do, sit around our planets, waiting for someone to come and play. Which would most likely result in a standoff LR strategy being used wide and large by ICC and UGTO, to which we have no counters.

Anything else?
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-03-24 18:50   
Quote:

On 2013-03-24 16:48, Diabo|ik wrote:
But then we couldn't have brawls at planets with dictors/depot/plats/massive AI spawns versus ICC or UGTO. A strategy that is so widely used that it would effectively cut on the engagements so as to make it all way overpowered.

The reason we can be bold and daring right now as to attack a station protected by all of the above is because we can recloak once we've drained our energy completely after a few volleys and believe me it happens hella fast in those situations even with carefull management and smart tactics. Take out that cloak possibility, and we're just sitting ducks with no energy, a massive hitbox with which you can't dodge crap and an impossible 1k gu to cross to be able to jump out while we can get point jumped by the enemy with all impunity and by UGTO, get our JD fluxed, both resulting in way too easy kills.

Really, really bad idea. Unless you want to make fighting and piloting Kluth boring beyond belief. Cause then we won't come get you at planets and will be hella reluctant to engage in deepspace, we'll just do like you do, sit around our planets, waiting for someone to come and play. Which would most likely result in a standoff LR strategy being used wide and large by ICC and UGTO, to which we have no counters.

Anything else?



It would give Kluth players an incentive to use something other than Dreadnoughts, because right now there is absolutely none. When do you ever see a luth player who can use Dreads in any combat ship smaller than one? The Cruisers are on par with ICC and UGTO but nobody uses them, and the Claw is easily the nastiest Destroyer in the game, but nobody uses it.
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Zero28
Grand Admiral

Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
Posted: 2013-03-24 18:56   
Quote:

On 2013-03-24 03:07, Kenny_Naboo wrote:

If you have a Timberwolf/Marauder suddenly drop in on a Catapult, what do you think the end result will be? Is it fair for the Catapult? Hell no. But that's life isn't it? Yes, there are no jumpdrives or cloak in MW. But then those are features in DS that you have to work with or work around with.




Do not compare Ds with mechwarriors.

First of all your all wrong about it, Catapult got its 4 medium lasers to defend itself very effectivly, even against mech of the same weight. Its speed alows him to gain distances on heavier class mech like an atlas, thus still able to use its LRMs.
it also carries jumps jet to get over terrain other mech would have problem to reach, or even can't reach

Also add the fact he can shoot his missiles behind cover, only needs an allie Light mech to spot the enemy. With that, a catapult can easily take down an assault mech or 2 on its own

i know cuz i Play Mechwarriors for a while, including Mechwarrior online and the catapult is my favorite mech

An MD/CD cant even dream of beign that effective since everythign just jumps trought everythign, ignoring all its possibe escort and jsut shoots him down and forces it out, and if he jumps, What stops another dread to just track him and follow?
Remember, Kluth dont play to win, they play to get kills

Quote:

On 2013-03-24 07:40, Pantheon wrote:
Some players just want it easy and to sit at range, with minimal difficulty, gaining prestige and dealing damage; and if someone jumps them, they have time to jump away. Fortunately, this isn't make believe land, and that isn't the case.



Its true that some players what that, Because at the moment It IS that but the other way around, the Assault ships got it too easy to beat down long range ship.

this whole "if you jump thing you can jump away to keep range" is nice and all. but everytime i did that, i only had a ship or 2 track me down from else where just waiting for me to do that, so they can beat me good since i used my JD to keep range instead of running away

this is why i suggested a minimum jump range woudl be a good idea, if a long range ships gets a good position then the assautl ship Aint gonna win much, But it can still be reached by others more distant. Makign them Far more viable in battle
[ This Message was edited by: Zero28 on 2013-03-24 19:06 ]
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Point Of No Return
Chief Marshal
United Nations Space Command


Joined: December 24, 2007
Posts: 78
Posted: 2013-03-24 19:02   
Answer to cloak, cloak can never be broken if AHR can run so cloak can only break if AHR runs out or gets broken. So meet half way reverse the Idea that cloak can make smoke and fire and debris disapper once it has fallen off and trailing a damaged ship that has always seemed like a cheap way to appease some players from quiting even though they eventually did quit from boredom. And as for LR combat kluth JD defeats the thought of a LR ship being able to just jump away since the kluth JD recharges much faster than the other factions, something like by the time the other factions ship at 3/4 JD recharge the kluth ship has already jumped to close range of its lazors completely defeating the escape of the LR ship with ease. oh and by the way the changes that has caused some of the noted instantences has not increased or even kept the player base as they loudly was claimed to do

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Wessssss
Fleet Admiral

Joined: June 29, 2006
Posts: 31
From: Midwest USA
Posted: 2013-03-24 19:34   
Quote:

On 2013-03-24 16:48, Diabo|ik wrote:
But then we couldn't have brawls at planets with dictors/depot/plats/massive AI spawns versus ICC or UGTO. A strategy that is so widely used that it would effectively cut on the engagements so as to make it all way overpowered.



so you have a problem with having to fight how the other factions do? We have to actually plan engagements and pick out planet defenses before we can get close for major kills. versus just everyone cloak creep in, decloak - burst - kill - recloak - repeat.
okay.

Quote:

On 2013-03-24 16:48, Diabo|ik wrote:
The reason we can be bold and daring right now as to attack a station protected by all of the above is because we can recloak once we've drained our energy completely after a few volleys and believe me it happens hella fast in those situations even with carefull management and smart tactics. Take out that cloak possibility, and we're just sitting ducks with no energy, a massive hitbox with which you can't dodge crap and an impossible 1k gu to cross to be able to jump out while we can get point jumped by the enemy with all impunity and by UGTO, get our JD fluxed, both resulting in way too easy kills.



sounds like all Assult based ships. Can't speak for dread classed, but the ICC Assult Cruiser runs out of energy in near half a minute in an engagment I never use it for that reason. Use a ship that is called for the situation and quit complaining that ur all powerfull dred can't do it all. I've seen ECM'd Kluth missle or torpedo ships do good harass on ICC/UGTO fleets from a range

Quote:

On 2013-03-24 16:48, Diabo|ik wrote:
Really, really bad idea. Unless you want to make fighting and piloting Kluth boring beyond belief. Cause then we won't come get you at planets and will be hella reluctant to engage in deepspace, we'll just do like you do, sit around our planets, waiting for someone to come and play. Which would most likely result in a standoff LR strategy being used wide and large by ICC and UGTO, to which we have no counters.



"WE'LL JUST DO LIKE YOU DO"

once again you point out that it's unfair to have to fight like the rest us? Put your big boy pants on and adapt like the rest of us. I've been playing Kluth for a week or so now, and it's hard to straight up engange ppl, but popping in and out of Cloak with AI's near by makes me near invincible and able to burst dammage fast. It's honestly the cheapest thing ever.

The ability to go in and out of cloak at a fast rate is probably the biggest problem. the initiate power of the Kluth is what gives the less capable Kluth ships an even chance at a fight, but being able to countlessly appear and disappear in a fight is rediculous. When I play Kluth it's litterally get behind a unit, fire twice on rear, cloak, try to get behind again. and repeat. It's not really a fight at all.

and as far as ranged ships go. From my observations medium/close ranged ships JD cooldown is shorter then the ranged ships. so while you say they can jump back out of range they will be followed faster then they jump away again.
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Templar Knights


Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
Posted: 2013-03-24 20:44   
Quote:


and as far as ranged ships go. From my observations medium/close ranged ships JD cooldown is shorter then the ranged ships. so while you say they can jump back out of range they will be followed faster then they jump away again.



JD cooldown is a function of Hull level, so all dreads have the same JD cooldown time. Long Ranged vs. Short Ranged ships doesn't factor in at all.
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Two Face
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Joined: November 30, 2009
Posts: 145
Posted: 2013-03-24 20:50   
I think what Diabo|ik said was spot on.
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