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 Author Dreadspace (yes, that dead horse)
Taelon
Marshal

Joined: December 26, 2011
Posts: 255
Posted: 2013-04-12 09:37   
He has a good point....and in that case should a nest or Ls or BS come bfore those lol they do the same thing lol
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Novacat
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
Posted: 2013-04-12 09:49   
Quote:

On 2013-04-09 00:35, Kenny_Naboo wrote:

The Tier system is coming, and we'll just have to see from there whether the "bigger is better" mentality will still prevail after implementation.




Oh, it will. It will still prevail, and the developers, in the ever continuing cycle, will think that the solution will be to introduce another ship layout overhaul. The cycle will likely continue until Faustus can no longer come up with the money to run the servers.

Quote:

On 2013-04-12 08:59, Fluttershy wrote:

Assault dreads, for example, don't take a lot of brains to use, they use sheer firepower.
You press J, hit spacebar, and unless the other ship gets out of there, will probably lose.
Those should be the first available, while more tactical dreads like carriers, cannon dreads, and missile dreads come later on, because they're harder to use effectively and need more knowledge of the game.



You have hit the root of the problem, even if your solution is not quite correct. Players are powergamers at heart, they will go for the most effective option for the lowest effort, and, at the moment, Assault Dreads are this in spades. They are extremely effective, extremely easy to use, and require no effort at all. Other combat ships are higher risk and lower reward, and until you deal with that everyone will be angling to use the CQC dreads.

Lowering the rank of ADs is not going to fix the issue, its just going to make the 'required rank' to be effective in Darkspace lower.

Quote:

On 2013-04-08 22:21, -SuperNova cYz- wrote:
I agree, meanwhile if you feel like playing a dread but cant risk it, you can always come over to kluth side to play, like what other fleets did. Kluth ftw~




I have been saying for a long time that Cloak makes Kluth too survivable.
[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-04-12 09:51 ]
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
Posted: 2013-04-12 10:14   
I think the whole way ships are balanced is bad from the start.
One way I've mulled over that I think could work out better is to have it like so:

Small combat ships would focus on close range burst damage. Think heavy torpedo frigates that have a long reload, slower projectile, but hit hard. These would be aimed for anti-dread gameplay.

Medium combat ships would focus on weapons with a high chance of hitting. Think heavy lasers, gauss-like cannons, missiles. These would be aimed more for attacking small ships.

Large combat ships would focus on long range firepower. Think long range artillery and suppressive fire. Some of the cannons would have splash damage, and do more damage at long range than up close due to explosive safety fuses. These would be aimed for attacking medium-sized ships.

Stations would focus on fighters and fleet support. Stations would need to be defended by all classes of ships. Fighters, Bombers, EWAR craft, wormholes, and repair drones would all provide support for a fleet, but the station itself would not be geared for direct combat at all.
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Taelon
Marshal

Joined: December 26, 2011
Posts: 255
Posted: 2013-04-12 10:15   
Quote:


Quote:

On 2013-04-08 22:21, -SuperNova cYz- wrote:
I agree, meanwhile if you feel like playing a dread but cant risk it, you can always come over to kluth side to play, like what other fleets did. Kluth ftw~




I have been saying for a long time that Cloak makes Kluth too survivable.
[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-04-12 09:51 ]




Uhh we are the weakest ship armor wise the cloak evens it out and even sometimes it doesnt help.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
Posted: 2013-04-12 10:32   
Quote:

On 2013-04-12 10:15, Taelon*RO* wrote:
Uhh we are the weakest ship armor wise the cloak evens it out and even sometimes it doesnt help.


I find K'Luth to be easiest.
You uncloak, do as much damage as possible, then you jump out and cloak -> NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO TRACK.

That's the big thing right there. K'Luth are nearly immune to being tracked after a jump.

Last time I played, K'Luth were just constantly tracking UGTO and ICC players mercilessly, killing them left and right. The K'luth had the numbers advantage, and there was nothing the humans could do short of jump into an interdictor.


K'Luth, the only faction that can E-Jump in a Dreadnaught and get away with it.

[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2013-04-12 10:32 ]
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral

Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
Posted: 2013-04-12 12:57   
Quote:

On 2013-04-12 09:09, Doran wrote:
thats an interesting angle.




Agreed.

As for the Kluth and cloak. Well... it's either we get comparable survivability IN COMBAT ala 1480-1481 with other factions. So more armor ( or more hull/armor/gadgets regen), more energy regen, less firepower and a nerfed cloak. Or the current state of affairs in which you can't stay visible for long and in combat unless you want to get slaughtered outright and a strong cloak.

I've seen in a previous build how a weak cloak + weak defenses etc did to the Kluth. We used to be floating prestige. We got tracked down and stalked way too easily while being totally unable to defend ourselves. We used to spend a ratio of about 1 to 15, 1 minute in combat, 15 minutes fleeing all over the place and that's not even taking into account the time to regroup and or repair and navigate for the next combat phase. Even now, it's much easier to get prestige from us than other factions, seeing you can get thru even Chitin armor so easily.

And quite frankly, I'd prefer the old state of affairs to the new... It seems at least in the old, the kill balance was more fair to all factions, rather than one sided as it is now.

I think you guys hit the nail on the head with the battle mechanics problems... Ever since the new layouts releases, torps tracking going down the drain and the level system implentation years ago, the fight mechanics have been totally dumbed down. No wonder most pilot virtuosos have left.

I used to do most of my fighting, back then, at medium range ( 500 to 350 gu ) with ICC or even with Kluth ships, and with extreme efficiency, only closing in occasionally for the kill in cruiser or destroyer sized ships, sortying the occasional dread here and there. Now, unless you're inside 500gu, or hitting at a static target, it's a lost cause.

Also, ever since, cruisers and destroyers defensive and offensive capabilities have never been the same again, relegating them to prestige grinding roles until you can get in a CQC dread.

Nasty state of affairs we are in right now. I hope we can see some light in 1.7. I'm in a wait and see state right now.
[ This Message was edited by: Diabo|ik on 2013-04-12 13:19 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
Posted: 2013-04-12 20:53   
Quote:

On 2013-04-12 12:57, Diabo|ik wrote:

As for the Kluth and cloak. Well... it's either we get comparable survivability IN COMBAT ala 1480-1481 with other factions. So more armor ( or more hull/armor/gadgets regen), more energy regen, less firepower and a nerfed cloak.



I would be fine with this. Kluth in their present incarnation are simply not fun to fight, as fighting them is not a game you can win, only lose or stalemate with the Kluth player cloaking and getting away. The only way for a Kluth player to die is if they let you kill them.

PS: So my statement does not get misinterpreted, it is easy to beat Kluth, but it is impossible to kill Kluth. ICC/UGTO are generally far riskier to fly because the chances of death are much greater.
[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-04-12 21:04 ]
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Fatal Mack Bolan(WildCards_58th)*COM*
Marshal
Fatal Squadron


Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 184
From: home planet: Exathra
Posted: 2013-04-13 01:08   
wellllll, here's to hoping 1.70 comes about b4 the next STO update on may 21st, and i know i shouldn't talk too muck smack , but the simple fact isi WANT DS to be better, butt STO is actually more fun right now to play and while i AM taking this short break from DS you all can be assured that i and my fart (there i said it!) jokes WILL return eventually and i WILL be in mv more often after may 21st......so keep yer eyes open and dis-reguard the burning sensation,b/c i will be back and if you k'luth see me you'd better be shaking in yer shells b/c if I see you yer gonna be toasted served with a lovely white wine i've been saving for just such an occasion,btw my kat iris says *meow* to all.....

*****PEACE*****
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  Email Fatal Mack Bolan(WildCards_58th)*COM*
Okkam
Marshal

Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
Posted: 2013-04-13 07:40   
K'luth bashing, the old old dead horse. We all have ideas with K'luth but the main problem at the moment isn't the fact that they do high damage, can cloak and usually have a faster JD it is simply the numbers of dreads they have at their disposal.

Quote:

On 2013-04-12 08:59, Fluttershy wrote:
Shouldn't the easiest to use ships be the first available to new players?

Assault dreads, for example, don't take a lot of brains to use, they use sheer firepower.
You press J, hit spacebar, and unless the other ship gets out of there, will probably lose.
Those should be the first available, while more tactical dreads like carriers, cannon dreads, and missile dreads come later on, because they're harder to use effectively and need more knowledge of the game.

Otherwise you have high ranking players in ships built for sheer damage, while all the low ranking players are forced to use ships that are only effective in groups and special situations, so are at a huge disadvantage.




I love the idea of making small ships hit hard against big ones, medium against medium/small and large as long range with station as support. I've never thought of it like that.
It would instantly make any new player a contender on the battlefield as they would do high damage to people who fly nothing but dreads with the extreme low cost of the small ships. Tactical fighting might even return instead of mostly 'spacebar' combat.

It definately reminds me of how you should play ICC, especially the Combat Dread which is a long range broadside platform not meant to fight toe to toe close range combat. This is where K'luth again comes into an issue. Unfortunately K'luth are mainly close range and ICC are not, this means that the AD is the best option because it gives a better chance at K'luth fights.

-=-=-=-

Off OP subject but related to previous post, i've always thought of this game as being a list of counters, similar to that of most games.

UGTO at this moment in time counter K'luth nicely. They have close-medium range firepower and heavy armour meaning that K'luth have a tough time keeping uncloaked vs most UGTO ships (if done correctly).

ICC counter UGTO as they have range and if you cannot cloak, missiles and fighters will destroy you out-right. It's just the truth. Missiles currently are insane in damage potential considering the difficulty of PD. (Don't even get me started on K'luth missiles that have low sig, whoever decided that was a good idea should be given a stern telling off)

K'luth beat ICC in this rock/paper/lobster fight. K'luth's cloak and inability to be located effectively by becons (which is the entire point of the useless module, forget bombing) and ICC's inability to sustain close range beam fire for very long (as they are mostly made of tin foil). Not to mention the minimum range of missiles due to their lovely ability to cause friendly fire anyway.

-=-=-=-

Back on subject, to conclude it isn't that K'luth are currently unfair or given a distinct advantage. As someone who flies all three races I can tell you for sure that a K'luth ship is not very survivable if you take the cloak away. Factor in that if you just 'spacebar' to victory, in most K'luth ships you're out of energy by the 4th volley or similar which means no cloak and no guns.

The core of the problem is the lack of balance in numbers. It kills the game in terms of team combat to have one team 7 strong (most of which dreadnaughts) and then the other with maybe 2-3 dreads and a low prestige player and the 3rd race sitting back and going "This is really damned boring, I can't do anything without being deep fried by those silly lobsters".

I'm almost getting to the point where fleets should be considered in this balance. I wouldn't suggest similar balance in the MV as the scenario server but if you consider that a single Fleet (RSM) has basically tipped the balance because they have the majority of active UGTO players and swapped to K'luth. Don't argue on it, you know it's true.

[ This Message was edited by: Okkam's Razor (Silenthunter13) on 2013-04-13 07:47 ]



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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
Posted: 2013-04-13 09:06   
Meanwhile:
http://darkspace.net/sideboxes/kills_chart.php
DREAD2
DREAD2
DREAD2
DREAD2
DREAD
DREAD2
STATION
DREAD2

...yeah
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2013-04-13 09:09 ]
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Bertrolen
1st Rear Admiral
Faster than Light


Joined: March 26, 2013
Posts: 2
Posted: 2013-04-13 11:14   
for cloak device i have a suggestion:

-if the cloacked ship go too close of a object (another ship, a plat, a planet) he get uncloacked
-If the cloacked ship is hit, he get uncloacked

I think this can be a good improvement to the gameplay

But indeed, the cloak is not the main problem, the main problem is that the player population are mainly on luth side. It is not fun to be 3 cruiser against 4 dread and 2 station.


(Sorry for my english, i am french)
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Brutality
Marshal

Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
Posted: 2013-04-13 14:53   
Maybe it's because I used to the current mechanics, but I really don't mind fighting the the kluth. Really looking forward to the new tier system though. Should bring some interesting gameplay.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-04-13 16:29   
Some of you seem to be forgetting that we HAD anti-Dreadnought Frigates, but they were nerfed into the ground because certain people refused to do anything about them but cry rivers on the forums until they got their way. Using your own Scouts and Frigates to drive them off has always been the most effective way of combating them aside from a beam alpha on any who are careless enough to get too close. Of course, I can easily see a Frigate armed with an upscaled Sabot with much higher damage and lower RoF being effective in such a role.

I don't think making cannons able to reliably hit smaller ships is a good way to go unless it's a new weapon that has shorter range, low damage, high speed, and high RoF like current day AA guns and fit them to the escort type ships, then use them as their intended role of ESCORTS for your Dreads/Stations and viola, you have an effective deterrant against the fast and agile "Torpedo Bombers". Something like that could easily be made to fit in with the new tier system. Missiles specifically designed to have low damage, short range, and high accuracy could also work in that role.

As far as cloak, there's never going to be a perfect way to "fix" it, as no matter what's done with it some people will be unhappy. Personally, since it's been stated numerous times that cloak is supposed to be a first strike mechanic I'd like to see it changed so if you are damaged during the cloaking process your sig resets to it's normal value, but once fully cloaked you stay that way until you decloak yourself or run out of energy. This would 100% preserve the first strike gameplay that Kluth are designed around, but make them think about how they're going to disengage beyond "I'll cloak at x% health".
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Zero28
Grand Admiral

Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
Posted: 2013-04-13 18:17   
Quote:

On 2013-04-13 16:29, Talien wrote:
Some of you seem to be forgetting that we HAD anti-Dreadnought Frigates, but they were nerfed into the ground because certain people refused to do anything about them but cry rivers on the forums until they got their way. Using your own Scouts and Frigates to drive them off has always been the most effective way of combating them aside from a beam alpha on any who are careless enough to get too close. Of course, I can easily see a Frigate armed with an upscaled Sabot with much higher damage and lower RoF being effective in such a role.

I don't think making cannons able to reliably hit smaller ships is a good way to go unless it's a new weapon that has shorter range, low damage, high speed, and high RoF like current day AA guns and fit them to the escort type ships, then use them as their intended role of ESCORTS for your Dreads/Stations and viola, you have an effective deterrant against the fast and agile "Torpedo Bombers". Something like that could easily be made to fit in with the new tier system. Missiles specifically designed to have low damage, short range, and high accuracy could also work in that role.




i dont think i was around for the Anti dread frigates, but i like thos sound of those ideas alot, also with the kluth cloak thing, Its sounds really nice,, if i understands it right
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-04-13 18:24   
I was speaking about Missile Frigates. And those were much, much easier to counter than something armed with a bunch of torps because missiles can be PDed.
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