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Prestiege loss. |
Bizaro
Marshal
Joined: April 19, 2004
Posts: 8
|  Posted: 2013-12-20 18:48
With the ammount of people playing at any givien time or overall, my personal opion is exp loss is to great to activly play for the fear of my pervious 24 hours of play time being wiped away in 20 minutes. When i log in i have to honestly make a decision to "play" or watch other people play so i dont waste a weeks worth of playing for a exciting 3 or 4 battles.
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Neoshinji
Grand Admiral
Fatal Squadron
Joined: July 19, 2002
Posts: 83
From: 3rd New Tokyo City
| Posted: 2013-12-20 20:14
People plays game for two goals basically:
- To enjoy some good time
- To get some kind public recognition or badges
- Maybe some people flirt, but I doubt you make this on Darkspace while you shoot your future boyfriend/girlfriend
The question is:
Do you would want to see Darkspace alive after some years?
It's true the amount of prestige you can lose makes to think before you choose a ship or simply to play, but it is the clue of any online game. If the amount of prestige (earn and lost) by players was not balanced as DS decided, then people forever would get prestige. As soon as players get their desired badge, Darkspace would lose those players. Then this business model is not reliable.
The only thing I can recommend after playing games for a lot of years, you would not play if you feel "furious" or "angry" with the game or someone, sometimes take a break is necessary.
Thats is just my two cents.
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Orkan [OO-XII]
Grand Admiral
The Myrmidon Legion
Joined: April 22, 2010
Posts: 201
From: A Point Perfectly Computed Yet Never Repeating
| Posted: 2013-12-20 23:26
I feel the amount of prestige loss per ship type has been well thought out and is balanced.
It is good to have the concept of prestige loss as it entices people to play the game valuing their ships if they want to progress and deterring mindless suicidal playstyles.
That may be obvious.
Which brings me to...
Personally, I dislike the 'transport rushing' tactic whereby players lazily destroy their ship just to return to Shipyard so they can repeat the process avoiding the hazardous and time-consuming task of returning with an empty transport to pick up more infantry.
K'Luth transports have a distinct advantage in this and this throws the game out of balance. Not only do they cloak but the weapons of their opposition deal far less damage per second and I'm not sure if their armour is effectively proprtionally balanced vs weapon damage (eg weak ICC weapons vs weak K'luth armour or medium UGTO weapons vs weak K'luth armour and, say, strong K'luth weapons on 'strong(?)' ICC shield and armour or strong K'luth weapons vs Medium UGTO armour) In any case, it's all about the Pods baby, it's all about the pods (which are nigh on impossible to intercept if you cannot see the incoming transport until it is too late).
The effectiveness of this method is the reason why people use it and who can blame them? This method however should be viewed in my opinion as a, punishable through prestige loss, 'exploit' (eg self-destructing or planet-crashing transports should incur an equal prestige loss such as a dread or even station for example).
It is not a 'divine wind' kamikaze act of self sacrifice to further your factions victory or a way to ease the scale of the defeat but rather a cheating lazy attempt to increase the amount of infantry on a target planet knowing that it is both quicker to do it that way and that the prestige penalty incurred (if any) is minimal.
I really don't wish to offend anyone in saying this as I realise that many players who do this just do it because it is the quickest and most effective way of getting troops on a planet. I think this mechanic should seriously be changed.
I myself enjoy the skill of Transporting troops and rate my ability to drop troops and come home safely, keeping a specially modded transport ship in my garage just for this purpose. Because I choose to do it 'honourably' I am actually, in effect, penalized by the game (not through prestige but through the fact that my Troop drops are slower de facto) because I don't choose to tranny rush.
Tranny rushing I believe should be penalized or even made against the RoC.
If I had cloak to aid me in this task then this would be a breeze but I don't and even still manage to drop my Infantry where it is needed though I may not always get out alive! That is the risk and the challenge.
To return to the main subject of the post - prestige loss and demotion is the risk run everytime a ship is launched. That is effectively the Game - Survive or Die. Neoshinji makes a good point that if it were not there (which i suppose is not even up for debate) some players would feel they had 'completed' the game and move on much more quickly.
Like I said before I think the prestige system is balanced. What is not entirely well balanced presently however is the factions' strengths and weaknesses in 1.702 - perhaps this belongs in a different thread but it really is tough on ICC at the present.
It seems as if flying K'Luth is 'easy' mode. UGTO is 'standard' and how the game should be played in terms of difficulty and flying ICC is 'hard'.
Prestige loss incurred due to lag or game bugs (such as pressing shift-J with no effect until the 3rd time) is more difficult to deal with, when you know you should have made it out, or the death traps that currently are ICC dreads buffing shield recharge is great but in-combat performance means shields and armour, even enhanced to max goes down very quickly with little counter-damage to the attacking enemy. Many times I have seen three or four ICC Ships on a K'luth vessel of equal class fail to kill (even with valence cannons) but 3 K'luth vessels on one ICC vessel of equal class means rapid death if you do not jump out quicktime. Therefore it seems fair to conclude that the balance is not quite right yet. (I may come back to this in a different thread)
Since 1.702 came out my prestige has been growing very slowly due to an increase in personal death rates (normal personal pres gain+group pres gain+subscription bonus vs increased death rate due to enemy player ambushes on interdictor bombing runs and a few dread sorties to name a few = slow increase in prestige.
Finally to answer Bizaro, prestige loss in itself does not stop me from launching in itself, it just makes me want to stay alive harder, if that means jumping out earlier from a battle, then so be it. (lag death and death mid jump as damage catches up to my client has taught me that tis better to be safe than sorry. (The whole faction trolling thing of thinking that jumping = running away and cloaking = hiding is just so infantile that I'd rather stay out of it.)
As Bob Marley once put it, "he who fight and run away, live to fight another day" and that is the whole concept of the 'war of the flea' (which is where you're at if you're ICC).
Peace to all my Darkspacers. ; )
[ This Message was edited by: Orkan [OO-XI] on 2013-12-20 23:37 ]
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Kinthalas
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 60
| Posted: 2013-12-21 01:23
The prest lost is based on the kind of ship you die in.. and combat is the quickest way to gain prest is in combat.
That being said, try bringing a smaller yet still effective ship into combat. Lots of the cruiser and dessy are amazing combat ships, will still get you a lot of prest but the loss to a death in them is pretty low.
Just my thoughts on this.. and I do fly dreads, I just try to be careful in them usually.
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-xTc- ExisT
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 534
From: Red Lobster
| Posted: 2013-12-21 02:01
The key to making prestige is simple: don't die.
When you are in situations where death is likely, be sure to die in the smallest ship possible while still being effective in your role with the team. Sometimes it has to be a dread.
Me personally, I only fly a dread If I have to, i much rather fly a cruiser or dessie. Because dread deaths cost so much.
That being said, when you jump into a fight, always, always have a way out, a route to take in case it goes bad, always anticipate something bad could happen and expect it and be ready to react to it.
Not only is darkpsace about teamwork and tactics, but opportunity as well. Keep the oppurtunity in your favor! Patience is useful, especially as a kluth player.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-12-21 04:11
This is still the only game I have ever personally played that finds it necessary to punish a person for playing.
Alongside a damn near two-year long climb to get up the ranks, it actually makes DS on of the LEAST DESIRABLE games to start new on.
I would give you quotes from my best friends, all of whom are avid gamers and have given DS a try, but this is a pg-13 forum.
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2013-12-21 04:14 ]
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Kinthalas
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 60
| Posted: 2013-12-21 08:19
PS - xtc smells funny!
and yes, fly small ships.. that shoot big ship!
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-12-21 16:07
Quote:
On 2013-12-21 04:11, Azreal wrote:
This is still the only game I have ever personally played that finds it necessary to punish a person for playing.
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That doesn't mean it's not necessary.
If we removed the death penalty, people would self-destruct over and over and over and over, and throw ships with gay-abandon at people until they died. People would moan, and we'd have to fix it with oh, some form of detriment to that style of play, like, oh say, prestige loss on death.
I say this, because this is exactly what has happened in the past.
If we removed prestige loss for death, people would abuse the game in ways it wasn't meant to be, and to essentially fix it, we'd have to implement weird arbitrary rules that would sometimes affect legitimate players.
The prestige loss on death is fine. People are ranking up at ridiculous rates as is, so lets not all pretend that prestige gain rates aren't negative.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-12-21 20:04
A good reason why prestige loss is neccessary as a mechanic is to deter players from, as it was already mentioned, to SD over and over and over, and basically throw their ships away. You gain a lot of respect, and a lot of value, for what you make because it can be so easily lost if you do not play wisely.
This is the only game where I have ever personally felt like the risk vs. reward was perfect. Tthe consequences of your stupidity evident. Its hard to get around it being your own fault most of the time.
And it is so, very, easy to not lose prestige. Its so easy to not die, I wonder why still people let themselves do it. You have to really try. You have to try playing this game in the way it wasn't meant to be played.
I admit, that there are some weird incentives going on in that prestige gain heavily favors combat, which it should. But the rewards for other activities which tie directly into combat is actually quite low. Which is shame, because those are also important parts of the game. So I think we should really consider how important we can make the OOC timer to prestige gain.
I think all non-combat roles should be given combat-level prestige gain if they are in combat. They should be put in combat for doing those non-combat roles, on things that are in combat. This is shown as an example of:
Planets that are under attack (bombers hitting planets are already put in combat, transports that drop infantry should too).
Ships that are under attack (EWAR can only be used in combat range for effectiveness, and supply that is used in combat range should have a higher rate of gain).
This way, there isn't just one route to the top. Teamwork should be important.
If we ever have a viable economic system in which you had to actually buy your ships, thats pretty much the only other alternative that, if restrictive enough could reduce it or replace the penalty.
[ This Message was edited by: Ent on 2013-12-21 20:07 ]
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2013-12-21 21:34
Quote:
On 2013-12-21 16:07, Pantheon wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-12-21 04:11, Azreal wrote:
This is still the only game I have ever personally played that finds it necessary to punish a person for playing.
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That doesn't mean it's not necessary.
If we removed the death penalty, people would self-destruct over and over and over and over, and throw ships with gay-abandon at people until they died. People would moan, and we'd have to fix it with oh, some form of detriment to that style of play, like, oh say, prestige loss on death.
I say this, because this is exactly what has happened in the past.
If we removed prestige loss for death, people would abuse the game in ways it wasn't meant to be, and to essentially fix it, we'd have to implement weird arbitrary rules that would sometimes affect legitimate players.
The prestige loss on death is fine. People are ranking up at ridiculous rates as is, so lets not all pretend that prestige gain rates aren't negative.
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remember station self destructing on people... would be able to spawn a station jump in the middle of a enemy fleet, kill your self and gain mass amounts of pres.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-12-22 02:18
What if a ship does not explode when destroyed?
It just fades away...
So people will stop kamikaze ship over x 4.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-12-22 02:19
So, the reason against it is because of self destructs?
Um. Are ya'll just not able to disable sd? Apparently ya'll don't want us doing it, so wth is it in the game, thereby necessitating all of this other.........nm....I don't really care.
I have my pres.
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Boerenkool
Marshal
Joined: December 18, 2007
Posts: 218
| Posted: 2013-12-22 06:37
prestige loss was lower a while ago, and at that time all ships in combat where dreads. all lower class ships where lower ranking players. So basically as a starting player you are shooting at mobs of dreads alone in a destroyer.
i think prestige loss is fine, maybe could be increased for deaths, since combat earns u more pres, it also loses you more pres then non combat roles. non combat ships are usually scout/frigate class. and the grouping system where u dont lose pres for other people dying, but you do gain pres for other peoples killing, should help the division between combat and non combat roles.
i did notice however, and praise the lord for this, that sometimes there are to many players and there have to be 2 groups! but then some ppl leave and the groups never merge etc. sometimes u just forget to make groups or leave it. new player logs in. I think Ent is kinda saying what im about to say: make grouping automatic for all allies in same server?
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Renovamen
Chief Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 21
| Posted: 2013-12-22 07:10
Quote:
On 2013-12-22 06:37, Robert Paulson wrote:
I think Ent is kinda saying what im about to say: make grouping automatic for all allies in same server?
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Log on, sit at planet and do nothing, get free prestige, NO THANKS! There is already enough lazy players in this game that want to be spoon fed and this idea would only promote more laziness.
Prestige loss is fine, if anything it needs increasing.
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Bizaro
Marshal
Joined: April 19, 2004
Posts: 8
| Posted: 2013-12-22 18:54
I'v tried to play and have fun but at most i just see about 15 players on at any giving time (thats a high figure) and 2 new players within 4 months ( thats a good year right?). But I've canceled my mothly subscription no offense but its too time consumeing to make any progress in this game. And the ones who are bitching about making it eaiser are the ones with 900,000+ prestiege and dont even have to worrie about any type of loss.
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