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Forum Index » » English (General) » » Game scale (Ships, Planets, Velocities)

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Game scale (Ships, Planets, Velocities)

Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy

Posted: 2014-12-17 18:44

I've thought about this for a while and have talked it over with friends who I managed to talk into playing this, and there's a general consensus that the game is overall disorienting and difficult to navigate in.

The distances are massive, the differences in ship scale are huge, speeds are very high for ships with instant turning abilities, zooming out enough to see what's going on leads to ships not rendering and making it difficult to see yourself, and some planets are so huge that it's difficult to target polar regions at orbit range.

What if we shook this up a bit?
-Drastically smaller planets that are placed much closer together.
-Ships scaled to be a bit more on par. Classes being, say, 20% bigger than the last, rather than 100%
-Weapon velocities, ranges, and ship speeds reduced so fights take place well within visual range, combatants could be better aware of what's happening without needing to constantly pan the camera. Ships of all classes would be easily visible within the fight, and the tweaked velocities would allow for things to be much tighter and still allow for maneuvering and dodging.

The way things are currently just feels big and overwhelming and way out of proportion. Some planets are so big you can't get a good look at them, yet you can easily crash into them if you look the wrong direction because of how fast cruise velocity is, and because of its infinite 'traction' on turns.

I'm not sure how to best explain this. I would like to use the dev tools to basically make an arcade styled version of the game to see how well received it would be. Of course most of you probably think it's fine the way it is, but it would be interesting to try none the less if they could trust me enough to do the tedious rescaling and hard-point work.

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Ignorance
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 27, 2012
Posts: 85

Posted: 2014-12-17 19:56

Quote:

On 2014-12-17 18:44, Fluttershy wrote:
-Ships scaled to be a bit more on par. Classes being, say, 20% bigger than the last, rather than 100%

By that logic, stations would be tiny.

In order to counteract that, you would have to make the scouts as big as cruisers...

The issue with rendering just means altering the render code, not changing ship sizes. This also depends on your screen type, resolution, size, and pixel density; There is only so much the developers can do to solve appearance problems.

_________________
Lt. Commander Data: \"In the game of poker, there is a moment when a player must decide if an opponent is being deceptive, or actually holds a winning hand.\"

Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy

Posted: 2014-12-17 20:36

Well, part of the reason for having ships closer to the same size would be so that their orientation and maneuvering is all easier to see.

Basically, being able to see the entire action at a comfortable zoom level would be ideal.
Ship classes would be easily discerned at a glance, weapons fire would be clearly rendered and large enough to make out, and inter-system navigation could be done just by zooming out, not going into navigation (which would still remain useful for long range plotting)
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Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal

Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC

Posted: 2014-12-17 20:56

I've been saying this for a while but increasing the draw distance of ships in the main view so that everything doesn't disappear when you zoom out, and increasing the draw distance/zoom out range in F2 so that you can see more than just 1 system in some maps would go a long way in mitigating these problems.

But i've been told this is "impossible" so there you go.

Rescaling is apparently also a tremendous amount of work, and the last re-scale project to what we have now took several years and we spent a big part of that time with some classes rescaled and some not which made things even more awkward.

Although I agree that the size change from cruiser->dreadnaught is a bit too massive with the draw distance the way it is now. And the size increase from anything else->station as well. Your camera when you're in a station is often so zoomed out that nothing except for ship rings and diamonds render.

And I also agree that the size of some planets significantly impacts certain gameplay elements such as bombing, depots, defense bases, sensor bases, and up until recently interdictors and should be looked at. Maybe giving defence bases, depots, and sensor bases the same treatment as interdictors (effect is centered and distance is adjusted for size of planet) might be more helpful and easier to do than re-scaling planets. It would also let us leave the visual of having large planets which do look pretty cool.

[ This Message was edited by: Chewy Squirrel on 2014-12-17 20:58 ]
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Ignorance
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 27, 2012
Posts: 85

Posted: 2014-12-17 21:23

Quote:

On 2014-12-17 20:36, Fluttershy wrote:
Well, part of the reason for having ships closer to the same size would be so that their orientation and maneuvering is all easier to see.

Basically, being able to see the entire action at a comfortable zoom level would be ideal.
Ship classes would be easily discerned at a glance, weapons fire would be clearly rendered and large enough to make out, and inter-system navigation could be done just by zooming out, not going into navigation (which would still remain useful for long range plotting)

Like I said, the problem is not static ship size, it's the monitor and the actual rendering process that counts for visibility.

Perhaps, though, a dynamic zoom system could be implemented:

If you zoom out so that your ship is pretty small and you can see what's behind a large planet when you're next to it, the ships themselves turn into static icons with the armor and shield facings still on them, similar to the map icons, but with facings. They will be small, but it will allow effective combat to take place even at unnecessarily high zoom levels.

Of course if you zoom out too far and all the combat is taking place within 200gu of you then all of the icons would overlap; Hopefully no one will attempt to do combat that way anyway.
_________________
Lt. Commander Data: \"In the game of poker, there is a moment when a player must decide if an opponent is being deceptive, or actually holds a winning hand.\"

Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy

Posted: 2014-12-17 21:25

If It were possible, I would like to try making a watered-down arcade-like version of darkspace with this rescaling in effect, just to see if it is possible to get a nice balance of ship sizes and visibility.

How hard would it be to make a test map with just a few planets and 1 ship for each class?
_________________

-=LoKi=-
Marshal
Imperium

Joined: November 10, 2007
Posts: 83
From: Valhala

Posted: 2014-12-18 07:28

Quote:

On 2014-12-17 18:44, Fluttershy wrote:
I've thought about this for a while and have talked it over with friends who I managed to talk into playing this, and there's a general consensus that the game is overall disorienting and difficult to navigate in.

The distances are massive, the differences in ship scale are huge, speeds are very high for ships with instant turning abilities, zooming out enough to see what's going on leads to ships not rendering and making it difficult to see yourself, and some planets are so huge that it's difficult to target polar regions at orbit range.

What if we shook this up a bit?
-Drastically smaller planets that are placed much closer together.
-Ships scaled to be a bit more on par. Classes being, say, 20% bigger than the last, rather than 100%
-Weapon velocities, ranges, and ship speeds reduced so fights take place well within visual range, combatants could be better aware of what's happening without needing to constantly pan the camera. Ships of all classes would be easily visible within the fight, and the tweaked velocities would allow for things to be much tighter and still allow for maneuvering and dodging.

The way things are currently just feels big and overwhelming and way out of proportion. Some planets are so big you can't get a good look at them, yet you can easily crash into them if you look the wrong direction because of how fast cruise velocity is, and because of its infinite 'traction' on turns.

I'm not sure how to best explain this. I would like to use the dev tools to basically make an arcade styled version of the game to see how well received it would be. Of course most of you probably think it's fine the way it is, but it would be interesting to try none the less if they could trust me enough to do the tedious rescaling and hard-point work.

Really, I whas thinking everything is slow, ships move slow, srsly, till cruiser class all is ok but after its like staying still, and planets are way 2 small, Considering that a station is not a planet, imo planets should be 10 times bigger, a planet should be a planet not a ball in space, no ship should be even half of the planet size.
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pawnerz
Chief Marshal

Joined: September 03, 2010
Posts: 50
From: Somewhere Somehow

Posted: 2014-12-18 08:44

Quote:

On 2014-12-18 07:28, -=LoKi=- wrote:
Really, I whas thinking everything is slow, ships move slow, srsly, till cruiser class all is ok but

Totally agree xD more skill involved
_________________
Yet another forum thread by me about planets and AI >:D

Ignorance
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 27, 2012
Posts: 85

Posted: 2014-12-18 13:27

Sounds to me like the general consensus is that we:

1. Need to make planet and star scaling more realistic

2. Increase the pace of everything in the game

Is this correct?
_________________
Lt. Commander Data: \"In the game of poker, there is a moment when a player must decide if an opponent is being deceptive, or actually holds a winning hand.\"

Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2014-12-23 18:45

Quote:

On 2014-12-18 13:27, CryTek wrote:
Sounds to me like the general consensus is that we:

1. Need to make planet and star scaling more realistic

2. Increase the pace of everything in the game

Is this correct?

Planet and star scaling more realistic?
Really?

http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

Over 99% of the universe is just an empty void. In DS, ships have been scaled up, and celestial bodies have been downscaled in size and distance.

Not to mention the difference in the size of stars. Some of them are so huge that it would envelope half our entire solar system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=SG&hl=en-GB&v=HEheh1BH34Q

And so, I think for now, it's fine. If you wanted it more realistic, then the planets would be scaled WAAAAAAAAY up compared to the ships. And the distance between the planets? Unimaginable. You would have to jump from Earth to Luna, or take 3 days to cruise there.

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2014-12-23 18:52 ]
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... in space, no one can hear you scream.....

Ignorance
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 27, 2012
Posts: 85

Posted: 2014-12-24 03:48

Quote:

On 2014-12-23 18:45, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-12-18 13:27, CryTek wrote:
Sounds to me like the general consensus is that we:

1. Need to make planet and star scaling more realistic

2. Increase the pace of everything in the game

Is this correct?

Planet and star scaling more realistic?
Really?

http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

Over 99% of the universe is just an empty void. In DS, ships have been scaled up, and celestial bodies have been downscaled in size and distance.

Not to mention the difference in the size of stars. Some of them are so huge that it would envelope half our entire solar system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=SG&hl=en-GB&v=HEheh1BH34Q

And so, I think for now, it's fine. If you wanted it more realistic, then the planets would be scaled WAAAAAAAAY up compared to the ships. And the distance between the planets? Unimaginable. You would have to jump from Earth to Luna, or take 3 days to cruise there.

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2014-12-23 18:52 ]

You and I both know, Kenny, that I did not say "Perfectly realistic"...

I don't want lifelike models because that's a stupid thing to work for, not to mention impossible.

What I DID say, however is "More realistic". This game needs better scaling, you cannot deny that much.

Of course if it appeases you to go and build a life-size solar system then so be it, nobody will try to stop you if you're doing it just to make a statement
_________________
Lt. Commander Data: \"In the game of poker, there is a moment when a player must decide if an opponent is being deceptive, or actually holds a winning hand.\"

Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2014-12-25 21:45

Define 'more realistic'.

Ships are planned, or have already been, scaled realistically to each other (well, except perhaps the old un-updated ones)

Dreads are 1.5km long, Cruisers 500m, dessies 250m, frigs 125m, scouts half that.

Other than that, there's no way to scale the ships to the celestial bodies more realistically without increasing the planets sizes and then spacing them out further from each other. (or simply scaling all the ships down dramatically)

But what I see is ppl asking for planets to be placed nearer to each other, which is the opposite of 'realistic'. That and travel times to be sped up, which is again, unrealistic.

That's why I'm saying things are fine as they are. The Metaverse has already been drastically reduced in size. Reducing the system sizes next, will simply dumb down the game further.

Besides, having lots of empty space is good. It allows you a lot of rooms to hide your supp plats and staging areas.

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2014-12-25 21:47 ]
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....

Kinthalas
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness

Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 60

Posted: 2014-12-25 23:36

I think ship sizes are perfect.. I have always played zoomed out enough to see around my ship, but also see ships within at least 2k of me. Camera pan is just part of the game.. even if you're not looking at that ship (even if zoomed out so far, you don't physically see it) it's still on your screen as a red diamond.

A ton of work has been put into all of this, and I for one am super grateful for it!

I also LOVE that some planets are really small/large.. it's a tactical thing.. build the large ones different to make bombing harder! I don't see any problem with this.. I'm a long term player, with a long of on and off time from real life of course, but still have a good deal of in game experience and see no problem with it.

EDIT: PS - just set your target nearest friendly and/or hostile keys.. so even if you don't 'see' with your camera angle or zoom, you can target to repair or fire

[ This Message was edited by: Kinthalas on 2014-12-25 23:37 ]
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Incinarator
Chief Marshal

Joined: May 24, 2010
Posts: 237

Posted: 2014-12-26 01:55

I must preface this post with the fact that I have never been much one for graphics or up-close views. In every game where I have a choice I commonly am at maximum zoom out range unless doing precision work. I've even gotten mods that allow me to zoom out past the default level for some games just because it feels too close.

I must admit that at first the usage of the camera confused me. If the usage was more transparent it'd have been much less daunting. However, I can say that about almost literally every other aspect of this game. The learning curve is steep, and it doesn't help that players usually won't bother with the (outdated) tutorial or read the documentation on the game.

That being said, I have no problem with the current system. The camera certainly could be better, but freecam scrolled out to a reasonable distance usually works fine. Just zoom out, pan the camera around to get a general idea of your surroundings, then zoom back in to a more comfortable range for you. I'm constantly zooming in and out for this exact reason. It's kind of like the difference between navigation and the normal view.

I'll admit that in tense dogfighting this can be an issue, especially when those fights have large numbers of small ships. However, cruisers are tolerable in dogfights and dreads and stations are way too slow for it to be an issue. If you're flying in a fleet of destroyers against a fleet of other destroyers it can be an issue, but if we're completely honest that rarely happens.

What would be more clear is having icons for the ships past a certain range. If the heading could be added to this then it'd be great. Still, you can only add so much 'iconage' before the game will just start to look like every other modern arcade game marketed towards the masses. I don't think we want that.

As for the scale.... I'm with Kenny here. The scale will never be anywhere near realistic. The most realistic part of the scale is the relative size of the ships... and you want to get rid of that. I'm not really sure I understand. Varying planet sizes is just realistic too: not all planets are homogenous. Yes, you could argue that the range of sizes should be smaller because there are tiny planets that are half the size of a station and huge planets it takes a scout thirty seconds to fly around, but I personally like the variety. It makes the combat less stale.

[ This Message was edited by: Incinarator on 2014-12-26 02:08 ]

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I be rebuilding your planets!

Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy

Posted: 2014-12-26 08:59

Would it be possible, devs? To have icons show up when you zoom past a certain distance?

Cruiser and up is fine, but the smaller ships are so small that they fade out or just can't be seen clearly enough to know what direction they are going or how their shields and armor are holding up.
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