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Forcing players into smaller ships |
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
|  Posted: 2010-07-12 02:28
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On 2010-07-11 12:03, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
a torpedo dessie sounds good
torp scout/frigs dont do enough damage
torp cruiser (not the ugto torp cruiser, but a cruiser with torps as main weapon, ugto torp cruiser still uses alot of beams/cannons) could provide more firepower, but alot easier to hit in a dread
so a torp dessie will be the middle ground
You could put a torp dread but that would be pointless, unless you want a station killer
we could add 1 hull level to these torp ships
torps are close/medium range so you can and will be continuously shot
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That's exactly my reasoning. To use torps you have to get in dangerously close so it becomes a question of pilot skill and timing.
At the same time though, dreads really shouldn't be too vulnerable to anything other than other dreads or stations. Darkspace's balance can't be as clear cut as say Age of Empires II where paladins beat archers, archers beat halberdiers, halberdiers beat paladins. 1 torp destroyer should not easily beat a dread, but it should do pretty good damage assuming it knows how to maneuver and choose the right time to attack.
Destroyers also shouldn't be cheap throwaway ships you use to beat dreads simply because you don't lose much prestige in them.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-07-13 12:34
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On 2010-07-11 10:53, MrSparkle wrote:
Cruisers could have the same variety of weapon layouts as dreads, and could also be the "special purpose ships" like minelayers, PD (no more picket destroyer, but picket cruiser - it can carry more PD beams) or special missile types. I'd rather most small missile ships be cruisers than destroyers.
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Assault Cruiser/Torpedo Cruiser/Scale are beam Cruisers. I've used my AC to screen missiles/fighters before and it works very well as long as you don't switch the HCL into PD mode.
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On 2010-07-12 01:29, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Also we need one new frig and Dessie per side to be specialized station n capship killers. The weap loadout should be hard hitting torps n cannons. That way, 2 or 3 of them working together should seriously hurt a heavy ship. But cos of their loadouts, they can't effectively combat other small ships sent out against them and will need to run or call for help. They can easily outmanuever a dread though.
This gives players an alternative to dread vs dread battles. You can now pull out fast, hard hitting, and cheap to lose ships to wreak havoc on the enemy's capships.
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Missile/Harrier Frigate were introduced for that purpose and some people cried so much they could've turned a Barren planet into an Ocean with all their tears. Assault/Interceptor Frigates are set up as cannon heavy and do decently vs. larger ships in groups, though they're also good vs. smaller ships too. Can't say about luth Frigates since I only play luth in scen, and haven't been there but once since the new Frigate layouts.
Destroyers, yeah, get rid of the Missile Destroyers and give us cannon/torp heavy ones as a replacement.
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Wild Cat
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 109
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-07-13 12:57
My point of view might be twisted, but I don't believe the problem lies in lack of armor, speed or fire power.
Smaller ships can take on bigger ships just fine, the only need to keep there distance and it will take them a good sum of time to dish out enough damage before their attacks start to hurt.
The problem is, we don't have the time to attack our much bigger foe that long. Speed and maneuverability don't mean little when we all have jump drives. They only have to line up and point jump on top of you, to hit you with all they got. At a close range or pointblank range, every weapon is able to hit you full on. You can't dodge or out fly it, loosing your strongest defense.
With out the jump drive, the game will be more balanced small ships have meaning on the battlefield they can keep there distance and away from harm.
I'm not saying to remove the jump drive, just pointing out that, I believe this to be the one thing that disrupts the balance between small and big ships so greatly.
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-13 12:59 ]
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Wild Cat
Dutch Time
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-13 14:45
the anti capital dessies/frigs will be in risk by getting into torp range. so it becomes a question of skill.
The missle frigate was:
get ecm
jump and turn them on
align to friendly planet
use the missle's 360 degree shooting to spam away
shift j when they jump
in other words no skill
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2010-07-13 15:32
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On 2010-07-13 12:57, Wild Cat wrote:
My point of view might be twisted, but I don't believe the problem lies in lack of armor, speed or fire power.
Smaller ships can take on bigger ships just fine, the only need to keep there distance and it will take them a good sum of time to dish out enough damage before their attacks start to hurt.
The problem is, we don't have the time to attack our much bigger foe that long. Speed and maneuverability don't mean little when we all have jump drives. They only have to line up and point jump on top of you, to hit you with all they got. At a close range or pointblank range, every weapon is able to hit you full on. You can't dodge or out fly it, loosing your strongest defense.
With out the jump drive, the game will be more balanced small ships have meaning on the battlefield they can keep there distance and away from harm.
I'm not saying to remove the jump drive, just pointing out that, I believe this to be the one thing that disrupts the balance between small and big ships so greatly.
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-13 12:59 ]
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You know an interesting solution could be if it took a 5-10 seconds to jump and their was some type of visual indication a ship was going to jump. Then it might be possible for a smaller faster ship to begin a jump out before the other larger ship could jump on top of them.
-F
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2010-07-13 15:32 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-13 15:38
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On 2010-07-13 15:32, Faustus wrote:
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You know an interesting solution could be if it took a 5-10 seconds to jump and their was some type of visual indication a ship was going to jump. Then it might be possible for a smaller faster ship to begin a jump out before the other larger ship could jump on top of them.
-F
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2010-07-13 15:32 ]
[/quote]
Interesting...it would require a delay between hitting J/Shift-J and actually jumping in order for any visual effect to be seen, because just having it appear when a ship is turning won't affect a ship already in line with where it's jumping to.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-07-13 15:41
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On 2010-07-13 15:32, Faustus wrote:
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On 2010-07-13 12:57, Wild Cat wrote:
My point of view might be twisted, but I don't believe the problem lies in lack of armor, speed or fire power.
Smaller ships can take on bigger ships just fine, the only need to keep there distance and it will take them a good sum of time to dish out enough damage before their attacks start to hurt.
The problem is, we don't have the time to attack our much bigger foe that long. Speed and maneuverability don't mean little when we all have jump drives. They only have to line up and point jump on top of you, to hit you with all they got. At a close range or pointblank range, every weapon is able to hit you full on. You can't dodge or out fly it, loosing your strongest defense.
With out the jump drive, the game will be more balanced small ships have meaning on the battlefield they can keep there distance and away from harm.
I'm not saying to remove the jump drive, just pointing out that, I believe this to be the one thing that disrupts the balance between small and big ships so greatly.
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-13 12:59 ]
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You know an interesting solution could be if it took a 5-10 seconds to jump and their was some type of visual indication a ship was going to jump. Then it might be possible for a smaller faster ship to begin a jump out before the other larger ship could jump on top of them.
-F
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2010-07-13 15:32 ]
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Nice. A sort of pre-jump buildup effect, you mean?
Sort of like electrical sparks appearing before the ship and coalescing before it warps into hyperspace or something like that.
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Wild Cat
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 109
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-07-13 16:05
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On 2010-07-13 15:32, Faustus wrote:
You know an interesting solution could be if it took a 5-10 seconds to jump and their was some type of visual indication a ship was going to jump. Then it might be possible for a smaller faster ship to begin a jump out before the other larger ship could jump on top of them.
-F
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Lol, I can't help but recall that I once posted some thing similar (but more complex), when I first started playing DarkSpace, got flamed by the community for saying such a thing. Have been hesitating to bring it up again.
But now you have, I'd say go for it.
I don't know if there is any background story based around the Jumpdrive in how it operates.
For the 5~10 second jump drive charge up give away animation, you could go with electrical sparks showing, buildup and increasing in intensity (light flashes, distant tell tales) around the ship, indicating a large energy being buildup. Paired with sound of a humming sound paired with sparks building up higher and higher till the point of release, the actual jump.
The question is, when the jump drive is charging (the 5~10 sec) delay. Does the player retain control over the ship or will it be locked in the aligned jump course.
And this Jump Drive charge up time, will it be fixed or dynamic.
Taking in account ship size (mass) or jump distance for instance? to (increase or shorter charge up duration)
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-14 07:07 ]
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Wild Cat
Dutch Time
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-14 15:08
if it takes 5-10 seconds from when you activate jump by pressing j or shift j,
escape will be alot harder than usual
5-10 seconds can mean life or death in alot of cases
whether it is a station finally getting out of dictor or a scout that got point jumped
in close quarters it will be good as it warns you if the enemy is preparing to jump you, but as i said escaping will be harder, tracking alot easier
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Wild Cat
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 109
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-07-14 15:30
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On 2010-07-14 15:08, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
if it takes 5-10 seconds from when you activate jump by pressing j or shift j,
escape will be alot harder than usual
5-10 seconds can mean life or death in alot of cases
whether it is a station finally getting out of dictor or a scout that got point jumped
in close quarters it will be good as it warns you if the enemy is preparing to jump you, but as i said escaping will be harder, tracking alot easier
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E-jump should remain as it is now. I've no problem with e-jump, its good for one thing and one thing only, a quick escape. You can't effectively use e-jump to accurately navigate from one point to an other with out being at least 1000gu+ of target. I doubt people will be able to master using the e-jump to work there away around the charge up delay and perform accurate jumps with it.
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Wild Cat
Dutch Time
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-14 17:02
some people manually jump to friendly planet to escape
like a depo planet
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Rebellion
Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 730
From: sol
| Posted: 2010-07-14 17:22
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On 2010-07-13 15:32, Faustus wrote:
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On 2010-07-13 12:57, Wild Cat wrote:
My point of view might be twisted, but I don't believe the problem lies in lack of armor, speed or fire power.
Smaller ships can take on bigger ships just fine, the only need to keep there distance and it will take them a good sum of time to dish out enough damage before their attacks start to hurt.
The problem is, we don't have the time to attack our much bigger foe that long. Speed and maneuverability don't mean little when we all have jump drives. They only have to line up and point jump on top of you, to hit you with all they got. At a close range or pointblank range, every weapon is able to hit you full on. You can't dodge or out fly it, loosing your strongest defense.
With out the jump drive, the game will be more balanced small ships have meaning on the battlefield they can keep there distance and away from harm.
I'm not saying to remove the jump drive, just pointing out that, I believe this to be the one thing that disrupts the balance between small and big ships so greatly.
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-13 12:59 ]
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You know an interesting solution could be if it took a 5-10 seconds to jump and their was some type of visual indication a ship was going to jump. Then it might be possible for a smaller faster ship to begin a jump out before the other larger ship could jump on top of them.
-F
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2010-07-13 15:32 ]
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yea make some cool grafix and it would be Soo cool
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Undergamer
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 12, 2002
Posts: 45
| Posted: 2010-07-14 17:33
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Loose the dreads or staions and alot of players will stop playing.
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There is a reason that many people including myself left in years past. Last time the SY res stuff was pulled it nearly killed the game.
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ThePile
Vice Admiral
Deicide
Joined: June 27, 2010
Posts: 39
From: ThePile
| Posted: 2010-07-14 18:09
Quote:
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On 2010-07-13 15:32, Faustus wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-07-13 12:57, Wild Cat wrote:
My point of view might be twisted, but I don't believe the problem lies in lack of armor, speed or fire power.
Smaller ships can take on bigger ships just fine, the only need to keep there distance and it will take them a good sum of time to dish out enough damage before their attacks start to hurt.
The problem is, we don't have the time to attack our much bigger foe that long. Speed and maneuverability don't mean little when we all have jump drives. They only have to line up and point jump on top of you, to hit you with all they got. At a close range or pointblank range, every weapon is able to hit you full on. You can't dodge or out fly it, loosing your strongest defense.
With out the jump drive, the game will be more balanced small ships have meaning on the battlefield they can keep there distance and away from harm.
I'm not saying to remove the jump drive, just pointing out that, I believe this to be the one thing that disrupts the balance between small and big ships so greatly.
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-13 12:59 ]
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You know an interesting solution could be if it took a 5-10 seconds to jump and their was some type of visual indication a ship was going to jump. Then it might be possible for a smaller faster ship to begin a jump out before the other larger ship could jump on top of them.
-F
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2010-07-13 15:32 ]
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Well, this game has enough particle action going around as it is - but what if you could make ship jumping that thier reticle started blinking or pulsing? Or starting to rotate to indicate that a specific target/ship is about to jump?
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-07-14 18:30
Quote:
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On 2010-07-13 15:32, Faustus wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-07-13 12:57, Wild Cat wrote:
My point of view might be twisted, but I don't believe the problem lies in lack of armor, speed or fire power.
Smaller ships can take on bigger ships just fine, the only need to keep there distance and it will take them a good sum of time to dish out enough damage before their attacks start to hurt.
The problem is, we don't have the time to attack our much bigger foe that long. Speed and maneuverability don't mean little when we all have jump drives. They only have to line up and point jump on top of you, to hit you with all they got. At a close range or pointblank range, every weapon is able to hit you full on. You can't dodge or out fly it, loosing your strongest defense.
With out the jump drive, the game will be more balanced small ships have meaning on the battlefield they can keep there distance and away from harm.
I'm not saying to remove the jump drive, just pointing out that, I believe this to be the one thing that disrupts the balance between small and big ships so greatly.
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-13 12:59 ]
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You know an interesting solution could be if it took a 5-10 seconds to jump and their was some type of visual indication a ship was going to jump. Then it might be possible for a smaller faster ship to begin a jump out before the other larger ship could jump on top of them.
-F
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2010-07-13 15:32 ]
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This would be awesome. Do this.
-Ent
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