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Orkan [OO-XII]
Grand Admiral
The Myrmidon Legion
Joined: April 22, 2010
Posts: 201
From: A Point Perfectly Computed Yet Never Repeating
|  Posted: 2013-09-03 21:51
Quote:
On 2013-09-03 07:39, Talien wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-09-03 05:52, Pantheon wrote:
The above scenarios given for prestige gain are extremely exploitable, and will not be added.
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But with no direct reward for PD, Missiles quite possibly really will be the new "go to" weapon because you get next to nothing from running PD and almost nobody will want to do it. Yeah people can group, but thinking about it more, it's still not an attractive option since flying around watching missiles blow up and trying to avoid being blown up by them in return is not the most exciting thing to do.
Of course.....even if a separate stat for PD is added it doesn't have to be a 1-1 ratio as 1 pres per missile/fighter shot down is ludicrous. 0.1 or 0.01 even is more like it, meaning 10 or 100 missiles PDed per 1 point of pres.
We currently get pres for hitting enemies with Beacons. How is that any less exploitable given that you could ECM yourself and pelt AI with them for hours without getting shot at? Nobody exploits it like that because it's not worth doing, too much work for too little reward.
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I am glad that people are beginning to consider the deeper implications of how prestige gain may affect the player base come 1.7.
The idea is to retain as many new tags as well as the interest of old ones who concede that this game is worth it's weight in gold after all.
PD prestige as mentioned above should be small. 1 per missile is way too much. Only the developers can really set this as only they are truly aware of the way prestige is set and its mechanics in-game.
I cannot disagree with Pantheon more concerning the exploitability of the above theoretical scenarios, we as end-users can only hope to guide the developers in the right direction. They know the code and it's limitations, we do not. As someone else pointed out almost every possible action which earns a player prestige can be exploited, a ruthless and cheating mind is a ruthless and cheating mind. Such minds generally are few and far between which is good for the rest of us.
I empathise with the difficulties faced by the development team with the sheer work involved and understand that some things are just too time consuming to implement. If that were the case there is no shame in saying that that is expressly the case or that there are far more important changes waiting to be made to the game.
I simply do not agree that the above scenarios are too easy to exploit. We are only sketching ideas as a community who is delivering feedback to the devs so that bugs and such can be ironed out pre-release. Using the community as a crowd to beta-test and write tutorial scripts shows how much the Developers value and rely upon our input. We are not trying to make anybody's life miserable we are only trying to help and support a project which we believe holds so much promise that we want to continue to help it grow and thrive. Many of us give up hard earned cash to see the game through another month. Someplayers have nothing to do with all those extra credits their garages are full yet they still keep on giving and supporting.
Let me give an example of a combat 'exploit'. (please understand that this entirely a fabricated exploit scenario but one that the games mechanics permits)
I hop in an ICC ship. I message a mate on UGTO to grab a ship and meet me in deep space to duel. Now I load up a third party speech communications program like TS or RC. Here's the plan. From now on we no longer use in-game comms. From anyone observing us we appear to be just slugging it out like two noobs. We're gonna rank up asap and get that darned Platinum combat badge and we're gonna help each other get it. Shock, horror! ICC and UGTO collusion!?! Is this against the RoC? I don't know and I don't care - let's say for the sake of argument that I'm a cheater who loves cheating at every game I play. We build three or more plats each to support our exploitation plan and off we go. Now floating motionless at point-blank range say 25gu apart so our beams have full damage effect. we go to town on each other only stopping when we are within an inch of death. then we retreat to plats for a while, quickly reload/repair and then close in again for round two. Surely with this method we will be gaining combat prestige faster than even that yielded through hunting ai? Heck I can even drop my shields and let my mate get to my hull faster, I know he won't kill me cos I'm helping him and he's helping me. Then we just rinse repeat ad infinitum This is not just prestige farming it's the combine harvester of combat prestige farming.
Now I challenge anyone, this 'exploit' can be arranged in current release and it can be arranged in beta, are we now going to remove the amount of prestige to be got from combat because this method of prestige gain is "extremely exploitable"? No, becasue as Talien put it above... "Nobody exploits it like that because it's not worth doing, too much work for too little reward."
What would even happen to two players running such an 'exploit' will they be sentenced to account suspension under the crime of 'conspiring to commit to gaining prestige by dishonourable means'? No because there are not enough eyes policing this game to stop these so called exploits from being run and even if two players were suspected of such heinous activity how could you prove it?
Most players have a sense of honour and those that don't play Luth (I'm joking, I'm joking, guys and gals, really : P - Big up all my U-Boats out there, without you there would be no tension or suspense in this game). To use an exploit to gain prestige is not only boring but will deprive them of the necessary combat experience they will need when they finally earn those Dreads or Stations. They will be just shooting themselves in the foot and working contrary to their best interest.
I just intend to highlight the fact that Darkspace should be about all things space for all kinds of players all across the board so we can have a varied and expanding playerbase where people can contribute and make a naval career how they want it.
With the transport/mining role I am just trying to stand up for the little-pilot, the pilot who doesn't want or like to fly combat. Will they get to Rank up to Chief Marshal? Yes the possibility is there, albeit slowly. Will they get to fly all ships? No and quite rightly so. That is exactly why the Badge requirement system exists.
To get to fly a Combat ship or a Dreadnought you must earn your stripes, prove yourself in Battle and earn the right combat experience flying combat to be able to survive hostile space and still come out alive, guns blazing. These requirements ensure that you have enough experience to be trusted with the more deadly starships.
To eliminate the possibility of players embarking on a decent solely 'logistical' Naval career, I think, is unfair to many types of gamers who quite frankly couldn't give a hoot about combat. In real life we are not all soldiers or conscripts but some people choose to be engineers, truckers, passenger jet liner pilots, artists, comedians, cooks, cleaners, teachers and so on. What I mean is that human intelligence and imagination brings so much to a game-world like Darkspace - politics, diplomacy, intrigue and so on and so on. The nuances and sublteties of possible events are so great. Variety in life and amongst the playerbase should be encouraged and rewarded. Combat is not more important than logistics and logistics is not more important than combat, the two go hand in hand. No military campaign can hope to be successful without adequate provision in both, just take a look at history. Why should mining and transport, point defense or e-war be underdog? Every role should idealy have its own badge path and lead to certain ships and exclude others. It is almost right just now. The beauty of the game experience is all in the details.
Please address the lack of prestige for PDing, e-war, mining, transporting of troops and resources. It is up to you to deliver the limiations so the game is balanced but please do not ignore players who are taking the time out of their busy days to help you by giving feedback that other companies have to spend top dollar to receive. I know i like it here and will be staying but personally I feel that If this issue is not addressed people who like those roles may migrate to other space mmo games where they feel their talents are more fully appreciated.
The sandbox environment of Darkspace encourages creativity, If I wanted to write a message in space I used to be able to use mines, now I will have to use platforms in 1.7, and everyone will be mad at me for taking up the platform and ai cap. But hey, if that's what a player wants to do, let them do it, trust me the verbal response alone from other players will make them think twice before trying it next time.
Darkspace is a truly wonderful virtual environment, please don't stifle it or relegate it to be just another shoot-em up because the complexity which occurs as a result of this Game's code alone and all the inherent possibilities that are thrown up make it a joy to participate in from so many different points of view. Like I always say Teamwork is where Darkspace is most enjoyable but you have to reward your team equally.
This is the last you'll hear from me on this topic, I truly felt I have said all there is for me to say.
[ This Message was edited by: Orkan ORP on 2013-09-03 22:18 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-03 22:16
Quote:
On 2013-09-03 21:51, Orkan ORP wrote:
What would even happen to two players running such an 'exploit' will they be sentenced to account suspension under the crime of 'conspiring to commit to gaining prestige by dishonourable means'? No because there are not enough eyes policing this game to stop these so called exploits from being run and even if two players were suspected of such heinous activity how could you prove it?
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The logs that staff have access to tell all. Literally. Every detail of everything that goes on in game is recorded in the logs, all a blue or green shirt has to do is access the log and search for whatever it is they're after and there it all is.
What would happen to players doing that? If it's a first offense they'd lose the prestige they gained from it and get a warning at the very least. If they'd been warned about it before then a full prestige wipe and quite possibly a few days worth of ban would be a likely result.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-09-04 03:02
Not pretending to know how your logs work,
But could looking at logs also reveal farming PD prestige?
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-09-04 03:18
Quote:
On 2013-09-03 22:16, Talien wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-09-03 21:51, Orkan ORP wrote:
What would even happen to two players running such an 'exploit' will they be sentenced to account suspension under the crime of 'conspiring to commit to gaining prestige by dishonourable means'? No because there are not enough eyes policing this game to stop these so called exploits from being run and even if two players were suspected of such heinous activity how could you prove it?
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The logs that staff have access to tell all. Literally. Every detail of everything that goes on in game is recorded in the logs, all a blue or green shirt has to do is access the log and search for whatever it is they're after and there it all is.
What would happen to players doing that? If it's a first offense they'd lose the prestige they gained from it and get a warning at the very least. If they'd been warned about it before then a full prestige wipe and quite possibly a few days worth of ban would be a likely result.
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Not really sure how you look at the logs and catch a few people who were, to the best of any observers knowledge, just fighting and retreating before death, which is what always happens unless someone gets over-committed to a battle.
I could grab a kluth scout bomber and take out infantry in UGTO back sectors for a decent amount of prestige at no risk to myself, faster than fighting AI with a cruiser, and faster than building and repairing if done relentlessly.
It serves no purpose, it's not a strike to soften up a planet before an invasion, is that exploiting?
Capturing planets isn't even worth it, you get what, 5 prestige? There's no difference between capturing a fully developed planet vs a barren with 1000 res on it.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-09-04 07:29
I'm not going to go into exact detail about how our logs work, but they do show a great deal more information than you would expect, and it does make it very clear when someone is doing something strange. And thats just for the mods - Admins can look at even more, right down to the prestige you gain and for what.
This is why /report exists. Moderators are usually on, but we can't be everywhere at once. When you see things that are wrong, we expect people to say something. And yes, with the right information, we can look to the exact time and find out exactly what happened.
I disagree we need prestige gain for simple tasks. It should be common courtesy for people who are in support roles to be grouped with. I would prefer more though, if we could come up with a good way for those in heavily supportive roles to gain a good amount of prestige for their efforts without it being a massive exploitive problem.
I personally wish that support ships (scouts, transports, supply, engineer) would be automatically tied into the grouping system, so that they always get a portion of the prestige as long as they are nearby and participating (in combat)..
-Ent
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-04 07:56
Quote:
On 2013-09-04 03:18, Fluttershy wrote:
Not really sure how you look at the logs and catch a few people who were, to the best of any observers knowledge, just fighting and retreating before death, which is what always happens unless someone gets over-committed to a battle.
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Considering the scenario he described as an example has 2 people in deep space sitting still at minimum distance from eachother firing until they're almost dead and then jumping to nearby clusters of supply platforms, then waiting patiently for eachother to repair to full and jump back to repeat the process while neither one even attempts to follow the other.....
Oh who am I kidding, you're absolutely right, that seems perfectly legit to me.
Nevermind that people have tried similar methods before and been caught.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-09-04 21:30
Have a development path for every role, with seperately tracked prestige.
Rank will be determined by the combination of them, or unique titles based on what the primary role is.
A low ranking player could, in effect, focus entirely on one role, and reach higher ranked dedicated roles, but still not be able to use the other ships.
Let's say someone uses the sensor scout a lot. They'd unlock the sensor frigate, and eventually the stealth cruiser, and later on meet PART of the requirement to use a Strike Carrier and Support Station.
They could exploit and farm EWar prestige all they want, but it will not bring them any closer to using the siege dread or strike cruiser, or whatever.
When a ship dies, the prestige lost statistic could have a detrimental effect on all paths, so if you had just barely enough combat prestige to use heavy cruisers but tons of PD and EWar prestige, you'll find yourself only being able to use cruisers and dreads with only the PD and/or EWar roles.
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2013-09-04 21:30 ]
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-xTc- ExisT
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 534
From: Red Lobster
| Posted: 2013-09-04 21:55
From what I have tested so far, I am extremely impressed with kluth.
Our ships are very, very powerful, and can cripple or even kill an enemy very quickly, although we can lose energy, armor, and even our cloaking ability, just as fast.
ELF is now much more powerful, and is now very important and may become critical to survival. Same thing goes with EWAR. Kluth fleets who fail to field ECM will be quickly vaporized by human ECCM fleets.
Kluth will truly be masters of stealth and opportunity.
I only hope and pray that my factions players realize how much they have to change how they've played.
I expect to hear alot of complaints in the beginning.
1.7 opens up for so many new tactics. New challenges to adapt to.
I can't wait.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-09-05 08:30
Just added tooltip info to Wormholes and Command Auras for those wanting to know what they do and all the ins and outs.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-09-05 13:37
8 advanced build drone + mining HQ = 58% right?
Flux beam and heavy has been changed. Seems like beam is going to share its total damage in a longer time. Thus smaller ship has more chance to survive.
[ This Message was edited by: DiepLuc on 2013-09-05 13:45 ]
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Terra Nova
Fleet Admiral
Joined: February 15, 2013
Posts: 29
From: Tau Volantis
| Posted: 2013-09-06 02:47
question about Beta and 1.7 update : can plats cap planets in 1.7? cause im sick of ppl building plats just for the purpose of capping planets. example : in the Barnard's Star map in Scenario i had a guy camp at 1 of Maurbon's moons and he was able to cap my SY planet.
also i would suggest in Scenario u guys make it so res dosent transfer between maps.
(sick of trying to cap a planet and someone jumps to my planet and starts building plats like no tomarrow)
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-09-06 17:31
Quote:
On 2013-09-05 13:37, DiepLuc wrote:
8 advanced build drone + mining HQ = 58% right?
Flux beam and heavy has been changed. Seems like beam is going to share its total damage in a longer time. Thus smaller ship has more chance to survive.
[ This Message was edited by: DiepLuc on 2013-09-05 13:45 ]
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Its additive, so 110% build speed.
-Ent
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-09-06 18:56
Perhaps PD ships could have a PD flag so when they are in a group they get increased prestige gain. Same deal for ECM/ECCM and scouts.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-09-07 04:24
Quote:
On 2013-09-06 18:56, iwancoppa wrote:
Perhaps PD ships could have a PD flag so when they are in a group they get increased prestige gain. Same deal for ECM/ECCM and scouts.
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Increase shared prestige to 100% for EWar/PD and divide it by the number group members so they don't get insane ammounts of prestige with a large group, they will get roughly what everyone in the group is earning, and in the case of 1 person out of 10 pulling their weight, getting 10% of if everyone was participating.
It will then be a largely mutual benefit, PD and EWar keeps allies alive and kicking, but those supports will only really benefit if everyone is being active.
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Ravendark
Marshal
Sanity Assassins
Joined: July 01, 2010
Posts: 443
| Posted: 2013-09-08 14:16
more of a technical issue. when firing ruptors, animation or at least sound of firing rupotrs carry on until weapon is charged again. not sure if it intended that way.
mines are chasing target yes, but in some twisted wicked logic they fly around with target, wich sometimes seems like... it just weird.
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