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-xTc- ExisT
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 534
From: Red Lobster
|  Posted: 2013-09-12 01:48
I'd suggest that sensor/anti-sensor bases on planets need to be looked at.
In 1.7 they will be extremely useful now. EWAR is pretty much the name of the game, even in human vs human fights.
On Sirius 3 I built 10 anti-sensor bases and achieved -39.5 sig on a cruiser.
I was able to fly full speed cloaked and gain energy.
On wolf 2b i built 10 sensor bases and achieved 50.5sig with the same cruiser. Sitting still, while cloaked with that sig I ran from 215 energy to 0 in 39 seconds after acheiving cloak, and my cloak broke at 2 mins 9 seconds.
Anyway, my point is, they cost almost nothing to build and maintain( 1 pop, 10 power and 10 tech each) and can very easily be spammed on crappy and powerful planets alike. We could easily see sensor rocks resulting in planet camping in a place where no kluth vessel could survive. Likewise, we could see kluth rocks with so much negative sig to enable kluth ships to always be in the positive while cloaked and combine that with ELF weapons...bad news for any humans that come too close.
And these kind of results I already acheived with only 10 bases each.
Those who remember depot spam days would likely feel the same way i do.
Maybe put a planetary limit for ewar bases, say 3-5, or make them much harder to upkeep.
Thoughts?
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-09-12 02:12
Make them draw a lot of power.
Hang on, wait. Ideas time.
Tech 1 ewar base: Inefficient, takes a lot of power, but low tech/time/res
tech2 ewar base: efficient, not so much power, high tech/time/res
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-09-12 03:38
Upping the power or pop requirements would be good enough.
Other than that, you can also push up the tech level requirements.
I think that overcomplicating sensor bases by adding too many levels isn't to great an idea.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-12 08:00
Give them 2x or 3x the signal strength and limit them to 1 each per planet. 2 or 3 of the current anti sensor bases are more than sufficient to aid defenders and deter attackers, they won't do the job of giving anything larger than a Frigate negative sig by themselves but they'd give a good base when paired with ECM from player ships. Likewise, 2 or 3 of the current sensor bases aren't going to break a luth assault on their own but they'll be a big help if paired with ECCM from player ships.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2013-09-12 10:29
why so worried over stationary planets with 10 sensor/antisensor bases? have you people forgotten that each faction gets scouts and frigates with 7 EWar devices? you could just bring 1 (cloaked) scout run its ECM fort and beat your average sensor-loaded planet.
i should point out now, that v1.7 tactics may become over-reliant on stealth, with tiny scouts hiding entire missile/fighter fleets.
and what could be worse than being attacked by torpedo frigates (even beam destroyers) at nearly point blank range (150 gu), and being unable to fire back?
good news : dreads cant affect a fight that well now.
bad news : a tiny and nigh undetectable scout can.
EWar is only counterable with EWar (for small ships which cant be detected until 10-40 gu), and area EWar is too good with large fleets of medium ships. i can see this encouraging fleetless bums to join the faction with better EWar players (right now they look for the bigger guns)
sure, EWar ships cant do damage worth anybody's time, but they can send your targeting abilities to the depths with a random frigate poking holes in you.
also, someone scrap the Makkar ship booster enh off the store. theyre OP already, and will only become more OP when 5 non-EWar scouts will be unable to damage 1 EWar scout.
did i mention targeted EWar is very balanced?
[ This Message was edited by: Trader of Destiny on 2013-09-12 10:31 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-09-12 10:52
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 10:29, Trader of Destiny wrote:
why so worried over stationary planets with 10 sensor/antisensor bases? have you people forgotten that each faction gets scouts and frigates with 7 EWar devices? you could just bring 1 (cloaked) scout run its ECM fort and beat your average sensor-loaded planet.
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Planet sensor structure is stronger than ship sensor gadget.
But the point is: planet with 10 antisensor/sensor doesn't deal much damage on bomber; it's the AI that defend the planet. Without AI or player, any planet is easily bombed and captured.
I usually use bomber frigate. And I can say that it's only good option when there is no sensor or no AI. When there is ANY sensor or ANY AI, cruiser or dread is better because you can cloud enough bomb to bypass AI PD and destroy the interdictor.
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 10:29, Trader of Destiny wrote:
i should point out now, that v1.7 tactics may become over-reliant on stealth, with tiny scouts hiding entire missile/fighter fleets.
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I don't think so.
If it is to 2 vs 2, then 2 players in tier II ewar & missle roles are much better than tier I ewar & tier I missle. If it is to 2 vs 1, then 2 combat ships are more powerful than 1 combat and 1 stealth. After all, ewar is for extra support.
Though I guess that it's really funny that both sides have enough ECM to get negative signature and the outcome is both sides don't see the other.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-12 15:56
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 10:29, Trader of Destiny wrote:
why so worried over stationary planets with 10 sensor/antisensor bases? have you people forgotten that each faction gets scouts and frigates with 7 EWar devices? you could just bring 1 (cloaked) scout run its ECM fort and beat your average sensor-loaded planet.
i should point out now, that v1.7 tactics may become over-reliant on stealth, with tiny scouts hiding entire missile/fighter fleets.
and what could be worse than being attacked by torpedo frigates (even beam destroyers) at nearly point blank range (150 gu), and being unable to fire back?
good news : dreads cant affect a fight that well now.
bad news : a tiny and nigh undetectable scout can.
EWar is only counterable with EWar (for small ships which cant be detected until 10-40 gu), and area EWar is too good with large fleets of medium ships. i can see this encouraging fleetless bums to join the faction with better EWar players (right now they look for the bigger guns)
sure, EWar ships cant do damage worth anybody's time, but they can send your targeting abilities to the depths with a random frigate poking holes in you.
also, someone scrap the Makkar ship booster enh off the store. theyre OP already, and will only become more OP when 5 non-EWar scouts will be unable to damage 1 EWar scout.
did i mention targeted EWar is very balanced?
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It's not going to be nearly as bad as you're thinking, it would take multiple EW Scouts or Frigates to cover even a small fleet of larger ships, and a small fleet is about all you'd be able to manage because of FF increasing the more ships you have in one area. That and once the cover is blown by someone getting into visual range that's it, the EW cover is worthless unless the whole fleet jumps away and reforms elsewhere. Trust me, I know this from experience with Border Cruiser wolfpacks before ECM was nerfed. All it takes is one enemy getting into visual range and suddenly you have missiles and fighters coming in from every enemy capable of launching them, followed by the inevitable AI horde if you stick around.
And don't forget that area EW was that strong previously, but almost nobody bothered using it aside from pinging luth because.....
*drumroll*
they'd rather use a Dreadnought or Station.
I really don't see that changing much right away even though we have far more options in 1.7, it's going to take a while before most people start to understand that a fleet of mixed ships is overall better now instead of just "spam the biggest thing you can fly to win" as it has been since 1.5x.
Agreed on Makkar though, it needs to be a unique and I've been saying that since it was first introduced, the downside is far outweighed by it's benefits. But I'm not sure what you're getting at with bringing up Scouts as they can't use it, Makkar is for Destroyer and up.
One thing I'd suggest about EW and Cloak, disable ECM/ECCM while cloaked like everything else is. It wouldn't be hard for a luth Scout or Frigate to decloak and hit it's ECM to cover the rest of it's fleet, this would give ICC/UGTO at least a chance to find the luth EW ships instead of them being 100% untouchable unless they get caught by splash damage from T3 missiles or an exploding ship, or fly between a Torpedo Dreadnought and it's target just as it's firing.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-09-12 19:48
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 15:56, Talien wrote:
One thing I'd suggest about EW and Cloak, disable ECM/ECCM while cloaked like everything else is. It wouldn't be hard for a luth Scout or Frigate to decloak and hit it's ECM to cover the rest of it's fleet, this would give ICC/UGTO at least a chance to find the luth EW ships instead of them being 100% untouchable unless they get caught by splash damage from T3 missiles or an exploding ship, or fly between a Torpedo Dreadnought and it's target just as it's firing.
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One thing about this though.
This would mean that 1 v 1, or small numbers vs small numbers, K'Luth ships won't be able to defend themselves with their own ECMs, while human ships will be able to use ECCM anytime.
Personally, I'm not for this idea.
Skews balance against the K'Luth further. Already cloak now drains energy quicker under ECCM. With this, humans won't even need to bring their own EW specialized ships. They just need any ship with a single ECCM and then group up and radiate away.
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-xTc- ExisT
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 534
From: Red Lobster
| Posted: 2013-09-12 20:34
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 15:56, Talien wrote:
Agreed on Makkar though, it needs to be a unique and I've been saying that since it was first introduced, the downside is far outweighed by it's benefits. But I'm not sure what you're getting at with bringing up Scouts as they can't use it, Makkar is for Destroyer and up.
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They are already unique in beta.
Quote:
One thing I'd suggest about EW and Cloak, disable ECM/ECCM while cloaked like everything else is. It wouldn't be hard for a luth Scout or Frigate to decloak and hit it's ECM to cover the rest of it's fleet, this would give ICC/UGTO at least a chance to find the luth EW ships instead of them being 100% untouchable unless they get caught by splash damage from T3 missiles or an exploding ship, or fly between a Torpedo Dreadnought and it's target just as it's firing.
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I was expecting this reply from someone.
If Kluth can't use ECM while cloaked, then ECCM from enemy ships should not effect us while we are cloaked.
And that wouldn't make sense because that would make ewar useless for kluth on both sides. Like it is currently in release.
Its already going to be hard enough to survive now as kluth with how high energy drain is while cloaked. I think its safe to say the "easily survive any situation" days of cloak are now over.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-12 21:09
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 20:34, -xTc-.xisT *XO* wrote:
They are already unique in beta.
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Good. I haven't done anything with enh during 1.7 so I hadn't noticed, but yeah, that's a very good thing.
Quote:
I was expecting this reply from someone.
If Kluth can't use ECM while cloaked, then ECCM from enemy ships should not effect us while we are cloaked.
And that wouldn't make sense because that would make ewar useless for kluth on both sides. Like it is currently in release.
Its already going to be hard enough to survive now as kluth with how high energy drain is while cloaked. I think its safe to say the "easily survive any situation" days of cloak are now over.
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Have you tried using ECM instead of cloak in beta, and just use cloak for mid battle repositioning? I haven't yet myself but it's on my list of things to do now that I can actually play. With the new detection mechanics it seems like that may be a viable option for luth.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-09-12 22:01
Right now, ECM has two purposes.
For one, it serves to lower your sig (for human, and uncloaked K'Luth) to mask yourself at a distance, or at least make yourself untargetable (even if you can be detected visually), and to mask your bombs, mines, missiles, fighters.
The second purpose, for K'Luth especially is to mitigate the effect of ECCM on their cloak energy drain.
In a way, it's balanced as it is.
It's way better than in release, where EW is completely pointless. Nobody uses ECCM or ECM at the moment. It's just wasted space.
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-xTc- ExisT
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 534
From: Red Lobster
| Posted: 2013-09-12 22:13
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 21:09, Talien wrote:
Have you tried using ECM instead of cloak in beta, and just use cloak for mid battle repositioning? I haven't yet myself but it's on my list of things to do now that I can actually play. With the new detection mechanics it seems like that may be a viable option for luth.
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Thats not a bad idea actually.
I'd imagine it would be great for smaller ships becuase they are going to be harder to detect across the board anyway(I believe a frigate's talent is 2 extra ewar devices also)
Maybe a concentrated group effort of say, one tier1 ewar cruiser masking 3-4 dessies(with targeted ecm) and the dessies cloak only to break a target on their six. I'm not sure how easy it will be to pull off though.
I'm sure human ships could do the same thing, except the ability to cloak.
Not a bad idea at all 
The options in 1.7 are truly limitless. haha
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-09-12 22:37
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 21:09, Talien wrote:
Have you tried using ECM instead of cloak in beta, and just use cloak for mid battle repositioning? I haven't yet myself but it's on my list of things to do now that I can actually play. With the new detection mechanics it seems like that may be a viable option for luth.
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Let's put it this way. With weaker armor and hull, no K'Luth is going to remain uncloaked in the presence of enemies unless they're shooting.
Cloak is used for ingress, repositioning, and possibly egress... though I'd strongly advocate jumping out instead of wasting your time cloaking and getting hit, seeing that it takes forever for the sig to hit 0.0 now.
ECM will be used primarily to counter the energy burn as they approach the target, or as they reposition themselves. With their weapons range being so short that they're going to be close enough to be visually acquired anyway, ECM while uncloaked makes absolutely no sense at all for K'Luth.
So yeah, I'm with X,ist. If K'Luth can't use ECM while cloaked, then ECCM should have no effect on cloaked vessels at all. Otherwise, it's just skewing the EW equation straight into the garbage can.
But if we do that, then what is the point of EW anyway?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-09-12 22:45
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 22:13, -xTc-.xisT *XO* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 21:09, Talien wrote:
Have you tried using ECM instead of cloak in beta, and just use cloak for mid battle repositioning? I haven't yet myself but it's on my list of things to do now that I can actually play. With the new detection mechanics it seems like that may be a viable option for luth.
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Thats not a bad idea actually.
I'd imagine it would be great for smaller ships becuase they are going to be harder to detect across the board anyway(I believe a frigate's talent is 2 extra ewar devices also)
Maybe a concentrated group effort of say, one tier1 ewar cruiser masking 3-4 dessies(with targeted ecm) and the dessies cloak only to break a target on their six. I'm not sure how easy it will be to pull off though.
I'm sure human ships could do the same thing, except the ability to cloak.
Not a bad idea at all
The options in 1.7 are truly limitless. haha
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There's a base detection value that's dependent on distance where you'll be detectable and targetable regardless of EW.
With K'Luth weapon ranges being that short, no amount of ECM will matter as they attempt to get into firing range. Cloak is still the de facto modus operandi to approach a human enemy. As a lobster, you need to get into weapon range to get in that strike and then hit hard and run.
Without cloak and with the shortest range weaps, you'll simply be the "Get hit and run" faction.
So again, I emphasize, the EW triangle is looking good as it is in 1.7. Leave it be.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-09-12 22:52 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-12 22:54
Quote:
On 2013-09-12 22:45, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
There's a base detection value that's dependent on distance where you'll be detectable and targetable regardless of EW.
With K'Luth weapon ranges being that short, no amount of ECM will matter as they attempt to get into firing range. Cloak is still the de facto modus operandi to approach a human enemy.
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It's 20 GU per 1 GU of hitbox size which is rather tiny for anything smaller than a Cruiser.
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