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[1.7] Soft-release Feedback |
Terra Nova
Fleet Admiral
Joined: February 15, 2013
Posts: 29
From: Tau Volantis
|  Posted: 2013-10-20 21:33
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 20:36, Bardiche wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 17:57, Terra Nova wrote:
AI are too damn aggressive! enough said.
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You'd be surprised, that actually doesn't say much.
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so u havent seen? go to Scenario and cap a major planet , it 10 min u will be shot at by atleast half a dozen frigates. just capping a planet pisses the AI off
[ This Message was edited by: Terra Nova on 2013-10-20 21:34 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-20 22:05
Let me clarify something about visual detection, because people aren't seeming to get it:
Every ship has a minimum visual detection range whree no matter what, when you get close enough, you will detect it period. For small ships this is very close. This is the default range when any ship is below negative signature.
That means if that scout is -.1 signature, you're gonna have to get really close.
However, visual detection range (not the minimum!) begins AFTER a ship is in the positive - at least .1. And it increases massively for every one signature in the positive (on the order of thousands of gu per sig for stations).
There is some more deeper mechanics to it as well (smaller ships are MUCH better at visual detection than Dreads are), but you get the gist.
So if you're not seeing a ship, chances are, you're trying to detect something that's in the negative, or very close to it - and very small. Grab an ECCM boat.
I've seen a lot of people complain about it, but honestly, I see a lot of people get whooped by ECM frigates because they refuse to get out of their lone dread with no support.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Ent on 2013-10-20 22:09 ]
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2013-10-20 22:23
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 21:14, Azreal wrote:
Today ay Sag Hotha:
A single ICC engy's was enough to cause the server to spam us with ICC ai when we tried to take the planet back. I understand scaled ai. I do not understand enemy ai presence in home system where the home system doesnt respond somehow when home planet is taken.
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I was there and it was laughable how much ICC ai came at us. there where at least 3 stations and a plethora of every ai dread there is, coupled with a literaly unending flow of cruisers frigates and scouts. There was no point where we weren't being pestered by some form of AI. There were about 5 or 6 Luth in the system and 1 or 2 ICC as i remember it. on the inverse me and someone else went to CD 36 for some sweet vengence and we managed to glass exathra and minuete with zero AI interference before ICC players came to stop us a 3rd of the way into the cap.
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 22:05, Ent wrote:
Let me clarify something about visual detection, because people aren't seeming to get it:
Every ship has a minimum visual detection range whree no matter what, when you get close enough, you will detect it period. For small ships this is very close. This is the default range when any ship is below negative signature.
That means if that scout is -.1 signature, you're gonna have to get really close.
However, visual detection range (not the minimum!) begins AFTER a ship is in the positive - at least .1. And it increases massively for every one signature in the positive (on the order of thousands of gu per sig for stations).
There is some more deeper mechanics to it as well (smaller ships are MUCH better at visual detection than Dreads are), but you get the gist.
So if you're not seeing a ship, chances are, you're trying to detect something that's in the negative, or very close to it - and very small. Grab an ECCM boat.
I've seen a lot of people complain about it, but honestly, I see a lot of people get whooped by ECM frigates because they refuse to get out of their lone dread with no support.
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I think that most players seem to think that most ships are so terrible at detecting things at its minimum distance that it is just silly. common sense would dictate that you could manually aim at something before it is practically scrapping off your hull. maybe make the bottom floor like 200-150 gu's, something reasonably close where a frigate or scout would have no business to begin with.
also, fighter bombers stop working when you are bombing a neutral planet and then change your target to another location on the planet. they just try to ram the designated point without launching any bombs.
finally I am okay with the lobby chat and game chat being combined provided that the /say command works again, because who wants to listen to a conversation that they cannot participate in, and that lobby chat gets its own color to distinguish it, like purple or something (unless that is the color for admin talk my memory fails me at the moment).
[ This Message was edited by: Scorched Soul[+R] on 2013-10-20 22:34 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2013-10-20 22:48
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 21:33, Terra Nova wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 20:36, Bardiche wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 17:57, Terra Nova wrote:
AI are too damn aggressive! enough said.
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You'd be surprised, that actually doesn't say much.
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so u havent seen? go to Scenario and cap a major planet , it 10 min u will be shot at by atleast half a dozen frigates. just capping a planet pisses the AI off
[ This Message was edited by: Terra Nova on 2013-10-20 21:34 ]
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AI being too aggressive could also mean they are too intent on attacking you and chase you to the ends of the earth as opposed to staying near a planet and defending it, only chasing off nearby hostiles.
@Ent: I was told all ships have the same visual detection range, with the exception of Destroyers having double range; even then, the distance their visual range works is 40gu for scouts. Sensor detection range is something different and is augmented by scanners, but negative signature can't be detected by sensors at all.
As I recall, even a Station's visual detection range (that is, you trying to spot a Station) is 600gu. That's nearly "close-range weaponry" range for something incredibly huge. The way visual detection works needs to be re-evaluated in my opinion. Telling people to "go play ship x instead of what you want to play" isn't an attitude we can afford in spades, the playerbase is not large enough for that.
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Sheraton*XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 482
From: Keel Mountains
| Posted: 2013-10-20 23:30
[quote]On 2013-10-20 22:23, Scorched Soul[+R] wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 21:14, Azreal wrote:
finally I am okay with the lobby chat and game chat being combined provided that the /say command works again, because who wants to listen to a conversation that they cannot participate in, and that lobby chat gets its own color to distinguish it, like purple or something (unless that is the color for admin talk my memory fails me at the moment).
[ This Message was edited by: Scorched Soul[+R] on 2013-10-20 22:34 ]
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White is the text for admins. Not purple IIRC.
-Sheraton
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-21 00:37
Quote:
I think that most players seem to think that most ships are so terrible at detecting things at its minimum distance that it is just silly. common sense would dictate that you could manually aim at something before it is practically scrapping off your hull. maybe make the bottom floor like 200-150 gu's, something reasonably close where a frigate or scout would have no business to begin with.
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The problem with this is that while the frigate would normally have no business there to begin with, a lot of dreads might decide to put themselves there with a point jump.
The entire point IS that these small ships stay hidden, unless you have other small ships to reveal them. They take so long to damage your larger ship, that you have plenty of time to flee.
In all honesty, players have no business pulling out a dreadnaught without the support of smaller ships. Visual detection on stations and dreadnaughts is ABYSMAL. Hell, you go miles just having a destroyer in your company. Its not that much to ask for. Its a team game, play as a team.
Besides, you're a militarized dreadnaught, why don't you worry about pressing the shooty button things and let your support worry about the EWAR frigates.
-Ent
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2013-10-21 01:16
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 00:37, Ent wrote:
Quote:
I think that most players seem to think that most ships are so terrible at detecting things at its minimum distance that it is just silly. common sense would dictate that you could manually aim at something before it is practically scrapping off your hull. maybe make the bottom floor like 200-150 gu's, something reasonably close where a frigate or scout would have no business to begin with.
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The problem with this is that while the frigate would normally have no business there to begin with, a lot of dreads might decide to put themselves there with a point jump.
The entire point IS that these small ships stay hidden, unless you have other small ships to reveal them. They take so long to damage your larger ship, that you have plenty of time to flee.
In all honesty, players have no business pulling out a dreadnaught without the support of smaller ships. Visual detection on stations and dreadnaughts is ABYSMAL. Hell, you go miles just having a destroyer in your company. Its not that much to ask for. Its a team game, play as a team.
Besides, you're a militarized dreadnaught, why don't you worry about pressing the shooty button things and let your support worry about the EWAR frigates.
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well if that is the case why bother even giving them a minimum detection range in the first place if they are meant to be undetectable by larger ships, why not just give them a group old style cloak where they can shoot you and are invisible unless you pull out something specifically to counter them. the problem lies in that you now have a support class ship the can operate with impunity, and you cant always just drop everything to fly 3 systems over to get a scout while everyone else is dying, there aren't enough people in the average confrontation for that. There needs to be a happy medium, it cant be that scouts are just invincible if the other team doesn't bring the right gear. What your saying would make the game too cloak and dagger and that's coming from a career K'luth player. if there were 30 people in every fight in the MV that would work just fine, but there aren't enough people that we can always bring a fleet for every uncertainty.
its 2:00 AM so if this was as confusing and rambly as it felt then i will summarize. If the point IS that you cant hit small ecm ships under any circumstance without specific counter measures than I think that the point IS wrong and that is my 1.7 feedback because the small ship may not outright kill the big ship but it will drive it off everytime and so has functionally the same effect on the greater game.
[ This Message was edited by: Scorched Soul[+R] on 2013-10-21 01:17 ]
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The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
| Posted: 2013-10-21 03:18
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 00:37, Ent wrote:
The problem with this is that while the frigate would normally have no business there to begin with, a lot of dreads might decide to put themselves there with a point jump.
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And still not detect it dispite landing 40gu from it. - although that should be fixed with the increase in detection ranges
At least in the old system it was 125gu or so and they had to move slowly to cover with ECM.
ECM is harder to see with it's blue rings, the energy requirement should be increased to force slow moving, with all ships including the Strike carrier.
To the point where there moving at half or less speed to mantain the negative signature.
The Missile Frigates where only able to mantain sig and fire at very very low speeds of ~3gu/s
Dreads could jump them and have a shot or two of killing and frigates could slip away with an e-jump if they were on the ball.
ECM was also alot easier to see then, although you can probably still use the F2 map to scan the area like a telescope.. But the blue should be better against the black background, for those types of ships.
At the moment it's appearing like it's easier to bring more ECM and damage then to bring an ECCM support, for your damage.
- The Sealth Corvette can go at 35 gu/s with -3.8 sig on 2 ECM's, it can fire 5 out of 6 of the torpedoes and remain at -0.8 sig for the recharge. (Personally forcing it to fly at 25 gu/s to mantain stealth while firing the 6 torpedoes would be reasonable)
- Havn't tried Luth but there frigates and Scouts hit harder, There ECM works the same, making there frigates very powerful.
- I think Frigates should be the ones with the ability to help hide a friendly ship rather then a scout, as scouts are suppose to be scouting and revealing such things.
At the moment both can do it, scouts are probably better though as they move faster and are harder to hit.
-I think energy drain of ECM / Local ECM should be increased, to slow down the users.
(Tested on ICC, shields at scout and frig level probably impacting on energy and sig.)
[ This Message was edited by: The Fridge on 2013-10-21 04:00 ]
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-10-21 04:11
Quote:
On 2013-10-20 22:05, Ent wrote:
However, visual detection range (not the minimum!) begins AFTER a ship is in the positive - at least .1. And it increases massively for every one signature in the positive (on the order of thousands of gu per sig for stations).
There is some more deeper mechanics to it as well (smaller ships are MUCH better at visual detection than Dreads are), but you get the gist.
So if you're not seeing a ship, chances are, you're trying to detect something that's in the negative, or very close to it - and very small. Grab an ECCM boat.
I've seen a lot of people complain about it, but honestly, I see a lot of people get whooped by ECM frigates because they refuse to get out of their lone dread with no support.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: iwancoppa on 2013-10-21 04:13 ]
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So you're saying that larger ships, with more crew, lookouts, windows and stronger sensory equipment have less visual detection capability then tiny little scouts?
Also, your post suggests that the visual detection is scaled across hull sizes, not just 25gu per radius for DD+ and 50gu FF/Corvette.
Just going to put it out there, these small ships do not take forever to melt away even the biggest ships, especially the K'luth ones. IMO, All ships should be visually detectable within 150gu no matter what circumstances. In the current release, we're literally assuming that every single crew member is blind.
In the current release, we're literally assuming that every single crew member is blind.
This stuff with empowering little ships to stay hidden and beat down the big bad dreadnaughts is all fine and dandy, but it's gone too far. It's even difficult for destroyers and other frigates to engage these little max-speed ECM fairies with a magical 40gu visual radius.
Oh, and let's not mention that one faction, cough cough K'luth cough cough, gets far more EWAR + high DPS combinations then the other factions... Good luck countering that with your EWAR boat or inferior sensor equipped combat vessel. Oh, and say you want to use a ship with targetted EWAR and suitable weapons(cannon+ewar cruiser, perhaps?)... No way Jose, you can't even get a lock to turn it on.
Visual detection is way too bad right now.
In the current release, we're literally assuming that every single crew member is blind.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-10-21 05:29
incomplete feedback
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2013-10-23 16:03 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-21 07:00
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 05:29, Azreal wrote:
I pulled 6 different ships at Sag. Never was able to counter the ecm that the engy was producing there. This with others also running eccm, and a bunch of plats.
Have used Mirage (pd cruiser?) vs bomber dread. 1 sensor on planet. ECCM was unable to effectively counter ecm, and bombs were visible for 1 sec. Effect was only half were pd'd.
I dont care either way, for the record. The harder ship detection is the more of a playground for K'Luth, to be sure. I just wonder if EWAR hasn't become too central to DS.
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2013-10-21 05:36 ]
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ALL a ship has to do is hit negative point one in order to force you to have to be in minimum distance.
So if you've got 16 ECCM together with your buddies and they have enough ECM to hide underneath that last little point, you STILL need to get within minimum range.
Your goal is to get them into the positive, there are lots of ways:
1. Ships are designed in mind to counter one for one - strength doesn't increase per level, so EACH EWAR brought by every ship is equally effective. All that changes is the range and energy cost.
2. A majority of the ships carry some form of EWAR - don't forget to actually use yours.
3. Beacons add massive amount of signature to any ship they touch, and it's probably my favorite way to counter EWAR small ships.
4. There are no limits to building sensor bases on planets, and they have incredible range and strength.
Im going to reiterate it one more time:
It doesn't matter how much ECCM you have if you don't send the enemy into the positive because they will still be hidden. ECCM is not an automatic reveal. You have to counter one for one. Either with platforms, or bases, or a scout, or something. If they build 10 anti-sensor bases on a planet, you probably should just bomb the planet first.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-10-21 07:43
words
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2013-10-23 16:05 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-21 09:22
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 07:43, Azreal wrote:
So, in other words, EWAR is now more important than any other thing in the game. Thank you for clearing that up.
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You're allowed to believe that if you want to.
Other people will adapt.
[ This Message was edited by: Ent on 2013-10-21 09:23 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2013-10-21 09:42
It's a feedback thread, but the staff still can't take feedback. You don't have a large enough user base to warrant the "deal with it" attitude you're crusading here. You can't afford to say "oh we'll lose like five players, big deal", because it IS a big deal for DarkSpace.
Is it honestly that hard to take another look at the EWar system and reconsider whether it's actually fun for your userbase to engage in it to the level you are demanding?
EDIT: In case you haven't noticed, the people saying the EWar system needs to be looked at are some of the oldest and most loyal players DarkSpace has. Do you seriously want to pretend we don't know how to play and need to be taught how to deal with the issue? We know how to deal with ECM scouts, it's just a massive pain in the arse to do and it isn't fun.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2013-10-21 09:43 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-21 10:00
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 09:42, Bardiche wrote:
It's a feedback thread, but the staff still can't take feedback. You don't have a large enough user base to warrant the "deal with it" attitude you're crusading here. You can't afford to say "oh we'll lose like five players, big deal", because it IS a big deal for DarkSpace.
Is it honestly that hard to take another look at the EWar system and reconsider whether it's actually fun for your userbase to engage in it to the level you are demanding?
EDIT: In case you haven't noticed, the people saying the EWar system needs to be looked at are some of the oldest and most loyal players DarkSpace has. Do you seriously want to pretend we don't know how to play and need to be taught how to deal with the issue? We know how to deal with ECM scouts, it's just a massive pain in the arse to do and it isn't fun.
[ This Message was edited by: Ent on 2013-10-21 10:24 ]
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Feedback would be helpful if its informative and it falls within what is supposed to happen.
If people complain, but its because their complaining that they don't have the same toys they had, the same ability to counter every situatoin, then thats just going to fall on deaf ears.
You know whats worse than Developers who don't listen to feedback?
Players that refuse to give honest feedback.
So far, the only thing I've observed is players who either don't understand how the system works, refuse to try to adapt to the system. I've watched players sit there and stubbornly refuse to leave their big ships, players who absolutelly will not play as a team.
This game has tried multiple times, over multiple versions, to listen to those most loyal players - and all we have gotten in return is dwindling numbers and frustrated newbies. You don't want to help them, you just don't want to have to bother to think about dealing with something other than what is a spacebar away.
I am keep a very close eye on the detection system, and how players are using EWAR, because I am very interested in your feedback and your potential concerns about its abuse. I am not interested in people just complaining.
And thats all this is. When I saw that Missle Dreadnaugtht collapse under the withering fire of eight assault corvettes, and I watched four teammates sit there and do nothing. I couldn't help but wonder, if they would have had fun if they tried?
**EDIT** I should clarify, I DO believe there are issues with EWAR right now.
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