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major issue with K'Luth |
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
|  Posted: 2005-06-26 09:50
Bear in mind that we havnt seen any level 8 assault disruptors yet, and they are meant to be very, very, very nasty indeed. Two to three ships all firing level 8/6 disruptors at a dread, will cause its armour to buckle, no doubt about it, causing it to retreat, you can then recloak, reload your energy reserves and repair any damage you took quickly, and go in for another attack.
Thats how kluth were meant to be played, and back in 1.3~, the kluth were like that, no armour, but their weapons were devistating. The mandable and siphon can do very heavy damage in a small amount of time, more than any other factions ships. The disadvantage is that their armour is weak, unfortunatly, you cant have it both ways, its not how kluth were meant to be played. In time we will see how it works when the device upgrade has been implimented, untill that time, kluth ships seem to be tearing through my level 8 EAD armour in no time atall. Even the a lone Scale caused me to retreat due to my rear layer being completly torn away. Without that, my EAD is useless, and I had to retreat.
Use tactics like this more often, and you can play with quiet devistating effects.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2005-06-26 10:40
After capping a carrier, I watched as the UGTO ATTEMPTED to destroy it...and had a hell of a time with it.
Afetr unloading 3 full alphas on an EAD I managed just 25% armor damage, no hull damage at all.
Give me a break.
The only tactics are hide or overwhelm.
Oh, and i got alphad 2x in the time it took for my weapons to go hot after decloak.
Balance? Where is that at?
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-26 10:51
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On 2005-06-26 10:40, Azreal wrote:
After capping a carrier, I watched as the UGTO ATTEMPTED to destroy it...and had a hell of a time with it.
Afetr unloading 3 full alphas on an EAD I managed just 25% armor damage, no hull damage at all.
Give me a break.
The only tactics are hide or overwhelm.
Oh, and i got alphad 2x in the time it took for my weapons to go hot after decloak.
Balance? Where is that at?
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We where capping it back lol
Also, you put both my front level armour rings at 0%, the second one was at 15%. Thats more than any other ships has EVER done in one alpha. You only did 25% armour damage BECAUSE it takes armour as a percentage over the entire ship, you didnt hit my 2 side armours, and not the rear one either, or the last front one...thats 6 other armour plates, you damaged 8...do the math...you hit 20-25% spot on.
Your not meant to be the "weeee kill in one alpha!" ships, you NEED to use hide tactics which NO kluth do at the moment. Actualy, to be fair, tops was doing a damn fine job yesterday keeping me busy trying destroy him, he managed to get away without a scratch though. You need to cloak quicker also, you went STRAIGHT for my EAD, you didnt use tactics, I was already facing you, meaning all my weapons where enabled, I was able to do considerable damage before you got in beam range, thats NOT using the cloak well atall, get closer, possition yourself BEHIND ships, not infront. You also decided to go through the ENTIRE fleet we had, including the carrier behind me and backalley in a destroyer. What where you thinking, you didnt even cloak when I suggested to you that you do, you kept going and going before after about 500 gu from the planet, then you decided to cloak.
That is not good use of the ship, use it properly. Possition yourself BEHIND ships, where they are at their weakest, get another ship to cause a distraction if you will, recloak after letting of an alpha or two, no more, and then reposition again. It isnt hard, and its damn effective.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2005-06-26 10:52 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2005-06-26 12:34
Funny. I wasn't attacking you. I was attacking Backalley. And he got 2 alphas before i got off one. In those two alphas, I was already down to hull, no armor left.
Look. I realize the beta really pleases you atm. But the fact is there are still major issues. And if, when we bring these to light, all we get is "you can't kill dreads with one alpha now", which was NEVER an expectation, then wtf is the point in testing beta and reporting the issues? Just release the GD thing and be done with it already.
put a cork in it already. I'm not aware that you are a part of the dev team, an admin, or even a mod. So all your so-called reasoning away the imbalances is just plain retarded. We KNOW YOU are happy with the game. But the other factions, both ICC AND Kluth are stating that we have very specific issues. Not freakin generalities. Specifics.
The cloak timing is just wrong.
The beams vs energy usage is way out of whack.
The autorep still needs tweaking. Just repairing SOME armor damage, I went to 400 on autorep.
The bombers for Kluth are just plain weak, and the AC will STILL end up being the bomber of choice.
These are SPECIFIC issues, are they not?
Oh, and the orbit bug is still there. If you are in orbit and you select another planet, you still have a 50% chance that the game assumes you want to be at the other planet, even though you never said to orbit it.
And ECCM on Kluth ships is still just as retarded as it is in release.
But the best you have offered is some gibberish about tactics.
Blah, whats the point? You are as dense as an oak tree and as hard of hearing as a 150 year old w/o an aid.
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Koda
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 1384
| Posted: 2005-06-26 13:20
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On 2005-06-26 12:34, Azreal wrote:
Oh, and the orbit bug is still there. If you are in orbit and you select another planet, you still have a 50% chance that the game assumes you want to be at the other planet, even though you never said to orbit it.
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Yeah whats up with that,.. ive been getting alot of that also.
Az, i think you got some good points that need to be looked into. Ill be honest with you, I havent put much time into the kluth side of beta. I had no Idea the bomber Loadout was so lop sided. I played as a Kluth for a bit yesterday and I got smashed. My timing was off on the cloak, I think i need a Cloak decloak Timer...lol
But what i did notice is that it will take alot more skill, and the assult dissruptor will probably be the silver lining to this dark cloud. Backslash did mention one thing that i think is worth repeating, and that is F,Tael & Mith will be able to fix this quickly if they see this as being broked.
-Charz
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Puddle Jumper
Cadet
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 81
| Posted: 2005-06-26 13:31
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On 2005-06-26 12:34, Azreal wrote:
put a cork in it already. I'm not aware that you are a part of the dev team, an admin, or even a mod. So all your so-called reasoning away the imbalances is just plain retarded. We KNOW YOU are happy with the game. But the other factions, both ICC AND Kluth are stating that we have very specific issues. Not freakin generalities. Specifics.
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Hear Hear.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-26 13:32
Assault Ruptors are damned powerful Azreal, even at level 4 I was doing what i'd expect from a level 8...
But you do have a point, and these bugs ARE recorded in mantis, I can see them now..its just taking Faustus some time to go through all the new ones. He goes through them at a damn fast rate though. The other issues are with Tael, and he's away (should be back today though). The AHR repairs hull at a really quick rate (look at it on a kluth dread, it goes about as fast as a depot would repair you), it wont repair armour as fast because armour is stronger than hull now, a lot stronger, so your looking at something thats probably double the HP rate of hull, so ofcourse its going to take a lot of drones to repair it.
Beam energy usage is fine for kluth, I was able to get PLENTY of alpha's off, and I found a very interesting fact out whilst testing it. The Siphon can effectivly fire off its Stellar incinerator without incuring ANY hits to the energy...thats right...it can fire it, recharge it, without the energy going down.
The bomber, I agree with, and the de-cloak timer I agree with, that needs to be halfed for the dreads, but the cloak timer needs to stay the same.
Oh and just so you know Azreal, this account may be UGTO...but I have others on ICC and K'luth that I do play on.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2005-06-26 13:42 ]
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Koda
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 1384
| Posted: 2005-06-26 13:56
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On 2005-06-26 13:32, BackSlash wrote:
Oh and just so you know Azreal, this account may be UGTO...but I have others on ICC and K'luth that I do play on.
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do you ever get into fight with yourself? just to run something up the flag pole and watch who salutes it.. lol
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Mithrandir
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 1276
| Posted: 2005-06-26 14:05
It sounds like there are more issues here than we realized for Kluth.
One thing that strikes me as odd (and is hopefully a bug) is that the Clavate is weaker as a bomber than other multirole ships, which is not how it should be, and makes no sense at all..
Smoking: I don't remember if this is supposed to happen or is a bug, but it sounds like it is much more harmful than good, so I would personally like to see it removed; the cloak was supposed to, as I understand it, be absolute - period.
It sounds like the delay on gadget use while decloaking is a bit heavy as well; while I think there was supposed to be a delay while cloaking and decloaking, it may be too much, though I'm basing this only on your comments. I wouldn't necessarily be averse to making things only not work when fully cloaked, but this also isn't really anything I personally can change.
And as for "teaching them they can't duke" ... well, yeah, Kluth isn't meant to be able to chill out and last the entire battle unscathed, but they also shouldn't always be afraid to fight. Their point is being the first strikers, and being able to hit hard in fewer shots... and it sounds like they're pretty much not. While I can see a good theory in the "fire a few times, recloak and sneak around to reposition," with cloak timers, it makes it hard.. plus, they're supposed to be causing a lot of damage in a strike - and they aren't.
Anyway.. sounds like we've some work to do... but again, I just handle simple resourcer issues; these are issues much more for Tael and Faustus..
I'll see what I can do to pass them on to them, though, and Tael should be back tonight and perusing the bug reports/feedback. Hang tight.
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Beast
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 345
From: Wouldnt you like to know
| Posted: 2005-06-26 15:11
1.Cloak needs tobe reduced to 4 seconds recloaking and 0 decloaking.
2. Kluth armour needs about a 10% increase no more then that.
3. All Kluth Levels in weopons should be atleast a 5% higher shot for shot damage as compared to there human counter part.
4.Auto Repair should be brought back up to where it once was.
5. Kluth Draining Beams should lethal not a joke.
I,m merely pointing out certain areas that should be improved on. While not all of them should be implemented all at once. I would implement 1 at a time. To see if we can get a balance we want without making the Kluth a huber faction.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-26 15:58
Me and drafell just went around owning everything we could, kluth are amazing, end of. Their weapons do FAR more damage their the human counterpart, ELF sucks a lot of energy, and its only a level 0 weapon we were using.
One gripe we did agree with, was the fact that the decloak time is a bit high, but thats to stop carriers from dropping instantly, perhaps there needs to be a different cloaking device for trannys.
The cloaking time needs to be looked into, sometimes a dread can cloak in about 1-2 seconds, other times 3-4, its never longer than that though, seems fine to me.
The ships are fine though, I cant stress enough, how much damage your Assault ruptors will do at level 8, they where doing almost twice the damage at level 4 from 0, and that was just scary, I ripped the AD's armour appart in one alpha on a mandable.
We did however, find one bug, where the armour wouldnt regen on its own once it was down to 0%, we couldnt reproduce it, but its there none the less. The armour is able to repair at a depot though.
Appart from those gripes...Kluth are amazingly fun to play as, its real hit and run (or as drafell said, real hit hit hit hit and run).
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-26 16:33
Yeh...your bloody fine...
*just went around in a level 15 mandy*
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Sweet Mary
Cadet
Joined: June 05, 2004
Posts: 109
| Posted: 2005-06-26 22:06
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On 2005-06-26 15:58, BackSlash wrote:
Me and drafell just went around owning everything we could, kluth are amazing, end of. Their weapons do FAR more damage their the human counterpart, ELF sucks a lot of energy, and its only a level 0 weapon we were using.
One gripe we did agree with, was the fact that the decloak time is a bit high, but thats to stop carriers from dropping instantly, perhaps there needs to be a different cloaking device for trannys.
The cloaking time needs to be looked into, sometimes a dread can cloak in about 1-2 seconds, other times 3-4, its never longer than that though, seems fine to me.
The ships are fine though, I cant stress enough, how much damage your Assault ruptors will do at level 8, they where doing almost twice the damage at level 4 from 0, and that was just scary, I ripped the AD's armour appart in one alpha on a mandable.
We did however, find one bug, where the armour wouldnt regen on its own once it was down to 0%, we couldnt reproduce it, but its there none the less. The armour is able to repair at a depot though.
Appart from those gripes...Kluth are amazingly fun to play as, its real hit and run (or as drafell said, real hit hit hit hit and run).
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really??
cuz i maxed out a mandy and fought a maxed out AD, granted is one on one and heaven forbid any luth ever do that... but i NEVER hit hull on that AD flown by [Raven]Unknown Warrior while he knocked me down to 50% before i jumped out.... now explain how that works so i can better unstand
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Tikki
Cadet
Raven Warriors
Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 132
From: Canuckistan
| Posted: 2005-06-26 22:59
My guess is it's an ICC pilot who knows how to cycle shields - a rare thing in the MV. 
Try against a target with just armor to see what happens, it should give you a better idea what a single salvo can do. Mabey even test against all armor types.
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-06-26 23:57
My beef with the K'luth:
The cloak timer needs to be for RECLOAKING. Not decloaking.
Having a timer for decloaking before you fire makes NO SENSE. It does not make the K'luth 'first strikers', but more like, 'last strikers'.
A K'luth ship reveals itself, you're like "oh, look, a lobster" *space space* and then he gets to fire a couple times before being blown to hell or having to run away.
A K'luth making an attack should not have ANY early warning, besides them jumping into the area and cloaking in the first place. You should be flying along and within the space of one second hear that beep and have ruptors and torps and cannons carving a new deluxe hangar bay into your ship.
It's AFTER that first strike that the K'luth need to be vulnerable... while they're re-cloaking.
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