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Reflective Armor and you. |
Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
|  Posted: 2008-10-13 13:41
Stations arent really supposed to fly solo or duke things out, are they?
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2008-10-13 13:48
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On 2008-10-13 13:41, Sixkiller *CL* wrote:
Stations arent really supposed to fly solo or duke things out, are they?
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Nope. Stations != frontline combat units.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2008-10-13 13:51
no, sixkiller, you are right. they are not suppose to fly solo.Check on beta forum, If i am not wrong , station could engage 2 dreads. This is what we were told ...
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Delando
Marshal
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 260
| Posted: 2008-10-13 14:05
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On 2008-10-13 13:32, Pakhos wrote:
Havent played as ugto since 1.5 came out . I have questions. Can still ugto mod their ships with reflective armor out side and ablative inside of plates or vice versa?
So the point is : lower beam resistance on reflective armor to 30%
Also i would like to invite dev team players to play as kluth for a week. See the things from our point of view , not as ugto player.
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@pak, yes, ugto have ability to mod reflective and ablative at the same time. in fact stations with 3 layer of armor can have all 3 type of armor.
I too agree with that the resistance of Reflective should be lowered. 50% resitance is too much. OR raise the penalty for particle dmg from 25% to 50%. Otherwise it's not a penalty.
I would also like to extend my invitation to the dev team to become kluth, not for 1 or 2 fights, but a week.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2008-10-13 14:34
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On 2008-10-13 14:05, Delando wrote:
@pak, yes, ugto have ability to mod reflective and ablative at the same time. in fact stations with 3 layer of armor can have all 3 type of armor.
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Whatever layer is "on top" takes the damage. the game doesn't choose which armor plate to take damage if theirs more then one.
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Delando
Marshal
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 260
| Posted: 2008-10-13 15:25
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On 2008-10-13 14:34, His Wibbllency Fattierob wrote:
Whatever layer is "on top" takes the damage. the game doesn't choose which armor plate to take damage if theirs more then one.
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yes, but since the specialized armor have little or no penalty, it maybe benificial to mix them, even if they only work when the other layers have been depleted.
A layer of Standard for regenation ability, a layer of Ablative for the 50% particle resitance and extra HP, a intermost layer of Reflectives for those close in laser hits and Emp 50% resitance.
in the above combo, only Reflective have a 25% penalty to particles, and only ablative lack self-repair, and since ALL station now have Reload slots, that's no penalty either.
[ This Message was edited by: Delando on 2008-10-13 15:26 ]
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$yTHe {C?}
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: September 29, 2002
Posts: 1292
From: Arlington, VA
| Posted: 2008-10-13 17:12
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On 2008-10-13 15:25, EAD Beserker(All Ablatives) wrote:
Quote:
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On 2008-10-13 14:34, His Wibbllency Fattierob wrote:
Whatever layer is "on top" takes the damage. the game doesn't choose which armor plate to take damage if theirs more then one.
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yes, but since the specialized armor have little or no penalty, it maybe benificial to mix them, even if they only work when the other layers have been depleted.
A layer of Standard for regenation ability, a layer of Ablative for the 50% particle resitance and extra HP, a intermost layer of Reflectives for those close in laser hits and Emp 50% resitance.
in the above combo, only Reflective have a 25% penalty to particles, and only ablative lack self-repair, and since ALL station now have Reload slots, that's no penalty either.
[ This Message was edited by: Delando on 2008-10-13 15:26 ]
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I don't thinkit works that way. I'm pretty sure that each armor "unit" is responsible for a quadrant. In the case you described abbove, you would actually have one side with reflective, one side with ablative, and another with standard.
Also, we're not fighting Amarr; lasers don't deal EMP and thermal 
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2008-10-13 17:28
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On 2008-10-13 17:12, $yTHe {C?} wrote:
I don't thinkit works that way. I'm pretty sure that each armor "unit" is responsible for a quadrant. In the case you described abbove, you would actually have one side with reflective, one side with ablative, and another with standard.
Also, we're not fighting Amarr; lasers don't deal EMP and thermal
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Doesn't each armour unit explicitly say what facing it's on? And aren't there several armour slots for each facing?
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-10-13 18:17
Look at it this way: You have two fore arcs, you put ablative on the inner arc, reflective on the outer arc. You go head to head with an AD which starts ripping into you with beams and torps. The beams do almost no damage, while the torps rip through the reflective. Reflective is done, so now the beams are ripping through the ablative & the torps are doing almost no damage. It all balances out to what two plates of standard armor might get, if not LESS than that since the HPs are lower & they're taking MORE damage from the types that you're NOT vulnerable to.
Smart bet? Stay with standards. However, if you really feel like you really need to spec: Reflective on your outer arcs in the rear only, thats to stunt those surprise AD pointjumps/K'Luth decloak strikes. Yeah the torps from the AD & anything else are going to rip in but if something is that close then the worst damage is blunted something fierce until you can either jump out or maneuver away.
Strategy. Tactics. Planning. These are all fantastic preambles to battle and would actually be nice to see some of it in DS other than planet camping / decoy baiting - but even then they all go out the window when the splat hits the fan. Thats when good piloting and even better teammates & coordination will come into play.
[ This Message was edited by: Coeus on 2008-10-13 18:17 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2008-10-13 18:27
I suspect a good general layout, for UGTO at least, would be to have standard on the outside and ablative on the inside, providing some regenerative protection while having an overall higher amount of protection in all situations. I've not played around much with armour, though, so I shall do some experimenting.
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Delando
Marshal
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 260
| Posted: 2008-10-13 18:45
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On 2008-10-13 18:17, Coeus wrote:
Look at it this way: You have two fore arcs, you put ablative on the inner arc, reflective on the outer arc. You go head to head with an AD which starts ripping into you with beams and torps. The beams do almost no damage, while the torps rip through the reflective. Reflective is done, so now the beams are ripping through the ablative & the torps are doing almost no damage. It all balances out to what two plates of standard armor might get, if not LESS than that since the HPs are lower & they're taking MORE damage from the types that you're NOT vulnerable to.
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Coeus, look at the specs Draf gave us. Reflective 50% beam resistance with 25% penalty for particle. BUT Ablatives is 50% particle resistance with NO penalty for beams.
U gain significant advantage for speciallizing for little or no penalty.
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Fornax
Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 906
From: Jacksonville, FL
| Posted: 2008-10-13 20:42
There's only one thing I'd wonder about until somebody tested it.
Just how specific is the armor plate anyways?
Lets say you have two plates on a facing - lets say Reflective Outer, Ablative Inner. It seems obvious the intention would be that you only had extra resistance against Reflective damage for points applied to the outer layer and kinetic against the inner.
What if there's a chance the code just applies resistance to a given facing?
What if resistance applies if the armor has a single HP available?
I suppose this could be tested by doing the setup with a variety of combinations of plates and watching the damage closely. Admittedly, this is totally and completely conjecture and has no basis in any observed behavior. However, it's definately something that may not have been a factor back in the good old days when the armor/shield code was written.
Just thinkin.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2008-10-14 00:00
to tactic players.
How do you know the approaching ugto ship has ablative or reflective or mixed? Since you cant scan ship?(correct me if i am wrong , i havent been able to scan any ship output,maybe it needs scanner on ships but we dont carry scanner on battle ships, just ecm to make cloak faster). How will you try your weapons ? you are like "mmm let me see, first torps! darn it is reflective outside!" while any weapon of enemy make same damage on you because u dont have resistance to anything.
We have to see the truth. Reflective has 50% beam resistance, but has lower hp than standart.. But this isnt making any difference. Even it has lower hp you make me fire my beams twice more than normal to make 1 alpha damage on anything has it ... What can i do with 4 alphas on a ship he does it with 2 alphas on me (same classship). So, less energy , cant even cloak after 5 alpha with siphon.
Dev always talks about faction's unique characteristic. More than six years ago, I still remember good, factions were identified like that for further patches : Icc shield and pulse ability, energy whore. Ugto , balanced fire power and armor , flux. Kluth "totaly organic", speed and cloak.
so far we got :
Icc shield ,pulse , no energy to charge shields as quick ugto get repaired.
Ugto heavy fire power ,heavy armor, emp damage on "even" organic units.
Kluth , organic ship which can be burned by emp ,slow ships/turn rates, cloak.(kluth scout turn rate is 16 while icc and ugto has 32,means ed can turn faster with more angle than kluth scout)
This game is becoming better, dont get me wrong. Better graphics,more weapons , new ships,new challenges,new players, new ranks etc ....but what we couldnt get over since 1.481 is BALANCE. In 1.480-1 everyship we had was uber .From scout to station everyhting was too uber for any faction. There was balance in unbalance.
So giving back some unique ability to other factions may solve the problem.OR removing the one other 2 faction is upset for.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-10-14 04:18
Code applies to a specific armour plate, not a facing.
And Pakhos seems to be giving out completely random facts, so let me correct:
ICC:
Choice of shields.
Planetairy shields.
Long range weapons with no falloff.
All weapons requiring less energy than UGTO counterparts.
Pulse Beam and Pulse Wave.
UGTO:
Choice of specalised armour.
Medium range weapons, falloff, slightly more damage.
Slowest accelerating ships in the game (EAD being the slowest turning Dreadnaught in the game, and also has the least intertia).
EMP cannon and Flux Wave.
High energy cost for everything.
K'luth:
Chitin armour for extra protection.
Choice of two AHR's.
Fastest turning and accelerating ships in the game.
AME/PSI drives, and AMJD.
Most damaging weapons, with no falloff.
High energy cost for weapons.
Fancy core weapon graphic.
(K'luth scout doesn't turn slower - it should turn slightly faster.)
Bare in mind, that the size/turn rate/acceleration scale should go something like : K'luth > ICC > UGTO, with UGTO on bottom, and K'luth on top.
And just to prove it, because you guys seem to pull fancy pants randomly generated numbers out from underneath your toenails...
(note: ICC have the same turning speed, but less weight, so accelerate much quicker)
Now all of you (most), stop jumping on the bandwaggon. Just because someone cries fowl, doesn't mean it is. And to those of you making up random numbers, check BEFORE you do. It only makes your future posts seem lest credible.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2008-10-14 04:33 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2008-10-14 08:29
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On 2008-10-14 04:18, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
...
K'luth:
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Fancy core weapon graphic.
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See, that one just proves that K'luth are brokenly overpowered. Their additional 23.245821% awesomeness-to-firepower ratio gives them far too much of an edge. On the Krill, which is practically all core weapons, the disproportionate amount of awesome causes everything around it to be omgwtfbbqpwnt.
Joking aside, I believe that all the factions have fairly balanced and adaptable defences. K'luth have organic armour that can be augmented by chitinous armour for extra defence or AHR for extra hull recovery after that armour is breached. ICC have shields, which can be rotated, have a high recharge rate, and there are two options for energy consumption. UGTO have multiple types of armour, which have advantages against some types of attacks, but also have their drawbacks in the form of vulnerabilities, reduced HP, and lack of regeneration ability. All-in-all, it seems that UGTO have the most in-depth options since they can have many kinds of armour combinations, but I believe this suits the "bruiser" faction since they otherwise tend to lack fancy devices like shields, cloaks, AMJDs, and pulse beams.
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