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Could be part of why the game is dying |
Abbot
Chief Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: December 23, 2007
Posts: 141
|  Posted: 2009-09-14 17:14
Some very good points made here by most people.
As mentioned in a previous post it would be nice if the price of this game was dropped slightly while the players are nearly non existant and there are so many bugs.
Lowering the price might just get some more new players and players that stick around longer rather than staying for the free 2 weeks then never to return.
Just an idea and will probably never happen but as i say its just an idea
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2009-09-14 20:04
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| Cloak is just part of the faction technology, as is the amjd. This isn't a balance mechanism, anymore than pulse waves or flux waves are meant for balance. It is what the faction is. |
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I disagree with this logic, everything that one or two factions has that is different then the others will have an effect on balance and needs to be considered when making balance changes. Nothing "just is"
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| AHR is a nice device, I will admit. Should remove the option to double stck them in lieu of the chitinous armor tho imo.
Um, K'luth do not have the most powerful short range weapons. In fact, the closer a K'luth is to you, the more damage YOU do to HIM. Rupters do same damage regardless of distance. CLs do more damage closer you are.
Again, this is how the faction was designed. This is what they are SUPPOSED to do. That, again, is not a balance mechanism. |
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The damage done by human lasers is effected by range but most K’Luth ships still have stronger weapons then their human counters at close range, in exchange K’Luth traditionally have few long range weapons. This is how they were designed to be and I never contested that but they were balanced that way, it is not just as simple as saying “this is how they are”
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| Ok, now here's where you make some real mistakes.
Kluth ships have crap energy. Period. |
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That is true, and this forces K’Luth to use more hit and run tactics. It was not my intent to say that every element of the k'Luth was over powered, I simply do not like it when people dismiss an issue every time someone brings up a concern.
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| Cloak can take up to 20 secs for a dread, all the while he cann't return fire. Same when uncloaking. You wanna balance our cloak? Fine. Use more eccm, sensor bases, beacons and those nifty little eccm fighters. They all increase cloak/decloak times.
Again, keep in mind that we can't fire, ejump, anything while in the cloak/uncloak process. |
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We are finally getting back to the point of my post.
I would love to use more ECCM and beacons; however, large UGTO combat ships have few or no slots for mounting that equipment. The solution we get from the developers is to use support ships and that this is all to promote mixed fleets. When there are enough people playing say 10 vs 10 this works. More often then not, however, we see numbers ranging from one to three per side. When you are dealing with such small numbers sacrificing the fire power of one dread so that the player can fly a sensor scout is a pretty big deal. The imbalance comes from only one side of the fight needing to make this sacrifice and that the current player base can not support this idea as envisioned.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-09-14 20:45
Thats the whole point SOP. The game is designed for larger then 2 vs 2 combat. I don't see why they should re-balance it during this dark time in ...darkspace
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2009-09-14 21:05
Well Robert, first of all a good game should be balanced regardless of the number of players, assuming even teams. Balance should not shift as numbers dwindle. Second, currently there are few people playing Darkspace, if Faustus is in fact working to get this game to recover it will be easier if the game does not lose the few players it still has. Now what is a good way to get people to stop playing pay to play game? Faulty game mechanics and a lack of people to play with. Right now DS is in a downward spiral. Third, this issue does not require a complete re-balancing of the game, a few small changes could go a long way. Finally my handle is Sops not SOP I am not a Standard Operating Procedure.
[ This Message was edited by: Sops on 2009-09-14 21:06 ]
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-09-15 01:22
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On 2009-09-14 21:05, Sops wrote:
Well Robert, first of all a good game should be balanced regardless of the number of players, assuming even teams.
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Would love to see examples of what games support this.
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Faulty game mechanics and a lack of people to play with. Right now DS is in a downward spiral.
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The first issue is fixable. I agree it needs fixing.
The second issue is not fixable.
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Third, this issue does not require a complete re-balancing of the game, a few small changes could go a long way.
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Re-balancing is not required. The game is balanced for what its numbers should be. Spending time and effort to balance the game to what it needs now would be a waste of effort when the player numbers do pick up
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Finally my handle is Sops not SOP I am not a Standard Operating Procedure.
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My apolagies.
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Point Of No Return
Chief Marshal
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 24, 2007
Posts: 78
| Posted: 2009-09-15 09:14
I think 1 of the main reasons people are droping off is the fact that the kluth have very little fear of being killed. The main reason for this is not thier weapons or engines, or even thier supposide weak armor. Its by the change of thier 1 and only good device the cloak. The cloak cannot be broke not if the ship has a repair drone device also. It can now cloak beacons which renders them null and the time penalty is next to nonexistant (.5 sec per beacon is not a penalty considering anything that can use a beacon is very weak and dies faster than the beacon can reach the kluth ship and get past the point defenses). The time penalty for the devices to detect cloaked ships are not an effective balance i.e. the ECCM's if they work show the ship for a half of a second each, most ships only have 1 or 2 devices with a recycle rate of 2 minutes. the scanners almost never work but recharges faster than the ECCM's. And the Flux wave and Pulse waves do no damage at towards the cloak device. Using a dictor ship also has no real effect on a cloacked ship other than keeping it from jumping away if it doesnt die quikly because the cloaked ship decloaks right next to it and destroys the dictor ship with 2 alfa attacks and recloaks which is about in real time 1 minute while any other support or combat ships has that 1 minute to target and shoot thier weapons, but when the kluth ship starts to cloak any missles self destect and the fighters end thier atacks and retun to thier ships
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2009-09-15 14:35
Quote:
| Would love to see examples of what games support this. |
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Ah, pretty much every professionally made game. EVE is a pretty easy example as they are both space ship based games. There are several factions in the game, each with unique qualities but they are all well balanced regardless of the size of the battle. You do not see fleets made up of Amarr ships having a major advantage in battles 20vs20 and up and then see Caldari fleets having an advantage in battles less then 5vs5.
Even if DS had a total turn around and a hundred people subscribed tomorrow you would still see smaller skirmishes happening. There is simply no excuse for allowing such an imbalance remain in the game.
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TheHunter
Marshal
Joined: July 05, 2005
Posts: 257
From: 3rd Star from the Left and keep going till Morning
| Posted: 2009-09-15 15:10
Tell me can anyone name me another MMO that is still going 9 years on?
I'd have to say lets get out of the guttering after 9 years dev upgrade everything, i'm talking upto to DX9 or 10 graphic over haul all ships and respective space with upto date technologies and re-release Darkspace into the 2010 Market, think im nuts then tell me if DS had graphs like Eve i talking nice shiny detailed and eyeball popping gfx backdrops and all fair game play with no bugs man i'd be happy and in heaven.
And adding a Little say +5/-5 Z Axis action woot.
ok back to drink i think lol.
[ This Message was edited by: IceMan on 2009-09-15 15:19 ]
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SaturnShadow™ *FC*(Angel Of Darkness)
Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: February 03, 2007
Posts: 310
From: UK
| Posted: 2009-09-15 16:16
now i was having the same idea about re releaseing the game BUT if we went with bigger better graphics some or afew players wouldnt beable to play again BUT we could get a good turn over.
now this idea might seem strange but here goes why dont we bring back the ablility to change the entire layout of the ship IE change to an all cannon ship like in 483 yes i know say wat u will BUT here my theroy if we bought back the ablility to change the lasers/cannon and ONLY THEM then many players can hav their own layout of ship reason for the only laser/cannon idea is so for larger ships u can hav all cannons and one beacon on it plus the reason for not bringing the idea of torp/missile changing ablility is so we dont get the OVERPOWERED TMD or missile cruiser turn torp cruiser as they were almost always overpowered..... AND AGAIN yes what this i hear about "oh but we'll still get the overpowered ED and PD" not to worry ppl there are TWO ways to combat this first is to disable the change ablility for that ship the Second way is to reduce its armor rating to that of a frigate or so add afew extra weapon slots for lasers and there you go then there will be TWO ways to using the PD, ED first is to use it as the normal way so your lasers are point defence PROTECTING your ship and that of the fleets ur in so ur be giving up ur attacking capablility for maximum defence or the second way is to use it as the dreaded cannon destroyer of 483 BUT with a twist as ur be giving up ur defence ablility for all out attack ablility its a good idea so give it a go try it out then maybe if players try and use the PD it will be used properly and to support the fleet and not to go head to head with another ship..
now i know it could take a while for this to happen but as an old chinese wise man said "it dont take a day to grow a tree"......... "unless its a bonzi tree"
ok sorry for spelling, grammer and the last bit but either way try and read all of it
PS time to play much more than i have
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Krim {C?}
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: June 24, 2002
Posts: 362
From: Boston MA
| Posted: 2009-09-15 16:37
Dictor fields are key to preventing Kluth ships from precision jumping and killing you. However. That can be worked around by a very patient kluth player... they can jump in from 5k out and slowly make thier way in to kill you) however this can be countered with the use of EWAS (they have a very slight increase in ECCM, thier man strength is in detecing these long range jumps outside of visual range) Sensor bases are a great way to counter as well.
If anyone is willing however, I'd love to do a test to see how long cloaking does take per ECM and ECCM. If I have a Battle Dread with an ECCM, and a kluth has another dread ( i must admit I dont know thier layouts very well so I'm not sure which ones have how many sensor slots) but in that insance, the cloak will simply take the same amount of time.
Also, alot of UGTO players have fault for keeping thier ECCM offline (because then we can "ping" kluth players) But that also allows the kluth to cloak and decloak faster.
There are many tactics that the UGTO and ICC can use to defeat the Kluth, and I really must say Azreal gives me more credit than I deserve, I certainly have more deaths than kills, but I'm a tactician at heart, and thats what this game is all about.
Team Tactics... just too bad I dont have a GTN fleet to back me up right now... we'll work on that.
Lets keep this conversation constructive,
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GTN - Veneratio est Totus
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-09-15 16:50
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On 2009-09-15 14:35, Sops wrote:
You do not see fleets made up of Amarr ships having a major advantage in battles 20vs20 and up and then see Caldari fleets having an advantage in battles less then 5vs5.
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Are you silly? Of course different factions have different advantages at smaller or larger levels. You think 20 BB's vs 20 BB's is the same as 5 frigates vs 5 frigates? Are you saying that every faction is so balanced that you can select any number of frigates one on faction and the same number on another and you tell me if you scale it up it's exactly the same?
Don't even through in the fact that how long you've played directly effects your ships performance. I'm sure that's also "perfect balance across number" as well, right?
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2009-09-15 18:51
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On 2009-09-15 16:50, Robert von Fattie wrote:
Are you silly? Of course different factions have different advantages at smaller or larger levels. You think 20 BB's vs 20 BB's is the same as 5 frigates vs 5 frigates? Are you saying that every faction is so balanced that you can select any number of frigates one on faction and the same number on another and you tell me if you scale it up it's exactly the same?
Don't even through in the fact that how long you've played directly effects your ships performance. I'm sure that's also "perfect balance across number" as well, right?
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You seem to not understand my argument at all so I will say this again. In EVE there are in fact ways for one side of a fight to have an advantage like using better equipment or having higher skill levels but one faction is not inherently better off or given an advantage simply by the size of the fight.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-09-15 20:09
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On 2009-09-15 18:51, Sops wrote:
In EVE there are in fact ways for one side of a fight to have an advantage like using better equipment or having higher skill levels but one faction is not inherently better off or given an advantage simply by the size of the fight.
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Correct. The same applies to Darkspace. A singler K'luth ship does not have any advantage against a single human ship then a fleet of K'luth ships have against a fleet of human ships. In fact, you could argue that the fleet of human ships have an advantage over a fleet of k'luth ships.
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xTx
Chief Marshal
Joined: September 10, 2005
Posts: 101
From: Canada
| Posted: 2009-09-16 00:08
i played kluth for 4 years but because it became so easy to play that faction i had to look for something with a challenge, that is why i went to ICC. Kluth is now the faction that only noobs should be playing, if vets are still playing kluth they should be embarassed.
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TheHunter
Marshal
Joined: July 05, 2005
Posts: 257
From: 3rd Star from the Left and keep going till Morning
| Posted: 2009-09-16 00:18
Chill out Amigo(xTx) ... there is no embaressment, we as you called us vets play what we want because we are paying to play as we are, if we feel the need to move change what ever be assured we are quite capable to this on our OWN!
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