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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
|  Posted: 2010-05-13 20:05
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On 2010-05-13 13:54, Pakhos wrote:
So the list :
1-Make ugto armor repair rate slower.
2-Make ad more stronger than hlc.(we must be the most agresive right?)
3-Lower the eccm effectiveness. (cruiser dont want to have 90+ signal nor dessies 60+)
4- Reduce psi range to 650gu.
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1) Will look at it.
2) It is stronger.
3) I agree, although trying to impliment a fix is tricky.
4) Done.
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2010-05-13 20:29
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1) Will look at it.
2) It is stronger.
3) I agree, although trying to impliment a fix is tricky.
4) Done.
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1) This is about depots again, not the base repair rate on the item. Just thought i'd say it in case anyone missed the point.
2) So the number buzz got are bad? What are the actual numbers?Disurptors need to be stronger. As it is, they are not recommendable to use unless energy does not matter.
3) Implementing a fix for ECCM would be to make its effect accumulate in a sublinear way (e.g. 1 = 1, 2 = 1.8, 3 = 2.3) Probably not very tricky.
4) Who's laughing.
Just to clarify 3) because it's not bloody obvious from reading it: ECCM is cumulative, Cloaks are not, this is a problem because the balancing does not scale.
[ This Message was edited by: NotAsStupid on 2010-05-13 21:05 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-13 21:04
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On 2010-05-13 20:05, BackSlash wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-05-13 13:54, Pakhos wrote:
So the list :
1-Make ugto armor repair rate slower.
2-Make ad more stronger than hlc.(we must be the most agresive right?)
3-Lower the eccm effectiveness. (cruiser dont want to have 90+ signal nor dessies 60+)
4- Reduce psi range to 650gu.
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1) Will look at it.
2) It is stronger.
3) I agree, although trying to impliment a fix is tricky.
4) Done.
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I don't think targetting UGTO for nerfing is the right thing to do either?
1 - Make armor rep rate slower across ALL factions by limiting the number of drones that can rep a ship down to 3 or 4 max
Immediate effect? Stations will take longer to rep, and spamming them in a cluster will not make them impossible to destroy due to the drone cap. They will still have their firepower though.....
Hopefully ppl will hop out of them and drive dreads or cruisers instead.
2 - No comments.
3 - Yes, tricky, this ECCM thing. Without it, hoonams have nothing against us, and that ain't fun. But when they deploy it en masse, sig goes up stupidly high.
Ship based ECCM, I think it's OK. They ping, and Kluth appears for a couple of secs, enough for them to target and hit us. But if they spam ping, it gets ridiculous. How about a range reduction for ping effectiveness to a 400gu radius instead? Most Kluth fight at that range anyway.
Also.... how the heck does the planet actually detect us when we're cloaked, and with 2 ECMs radiating?? They're not pinging.
Approach them and they can detect you cloaked or not once you get into flashlight range, and they beam you. Is that supposed to be corret?
4 - Doesn't bother me.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-13 21:08 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-05-13 21:19
UGTO Dreads take a while to rep. Not sure on stations. Dont really use em.
I dont like the idea of slowing down combat. Its slow enough and people stay parked at the planet half the time as it is. The one faction that can safely do that due to cloak technology seems to be the only fleet who actually USES platforms intelligently. As it is, this "new" no-honor community jumps repping ships immediately on site even at planets and kill them now. Slow down rep rates or add some limit to supplying and you will only make that entire process worse.
When this happens people rightfully log out and say screw MV. I dont see how this concept will enhance COMBAT.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-05-13 21:40
Also, ECCM isn't solely a tool against K'Luth. Remember it also helps against incoming missile barrages, detection of Mines, undoing bombers' ECM load-outs etcetera.
Please don't argue solely from the "it interferes with Cloak" point of view... it's not that simple.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-05-13 21:53
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On 2010-05-13 21:40, Bardiche wrote:
Also, ECCM isn't solely a tool against K'Luth. Remember it also helps against incoming missile barrages, detection of Mines, undoing bombers' ECM load-outs etcetera.
Please don't argue solely from the "it interferes with Cloak" point of view... it's not that simple.
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Then what is the point of having a scanner? 1 single scanner does the job of 10 eccm for a big fleet. You know , you can turn on the scanner from 3k away and see a planet buildings.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-05-13 21:53
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On 2010-05-13 21:19, Azreal wrote:
UGTO Dreads take a while to rep. Not sure on stations. Dont really use em.
I dont like the idea of slowing down combat. Its slow enough and people stay parked at the planet half the time as it is. The one faction that can safely do that due to cloak technology seems to be the only fleet who actually USES platforms intelligently. As it is, this "new" no-honor community jumps repping ships immediately on site even at planets and kill them now. Slow down rep rates or add some limit to supplying and you will only make that entire process worse.
When this happens people rightfully log out and say screw MV. I dont see how this concept will enhance COMBAT.
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Honestly, even when playing UGTO most of the time I'm waiting for my hull to repair, not my armour. One thing to do, and I have argued quite passionately about this over dev channels, is the increasing of hull repair rate. This would allow all ships back into the fight faster. However it's a tricky subject, and one best handled with steady hands and comfortable pace.
One thing I'm for is removing the recharge rate on UGTO armour completely. Never really seen the point of it, one of those things that I might be beaten over if I change though (mostly K'luth dev).
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-05-13 21:54 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-13 23:09
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On 2010-05-13 21:19, Azreal wrote:
UGTO Dreads take a while to rep. Not sure on stations. Dont really use em.
I dont like the idea of slowing down combat. Its slow enough and people stay parked at the planet half the time as it is. The one faction that can safely do that due to cloak technology seems to be the only fleet who actually USES platforms intelligently. As it is, this "new" no-honor community jumps repping ships immediately on site even at planets and kill them now. Slow down rep rates or add some limit to supplying and you will only make that entire process worse.
When this happens people rightfully log out and say screw MV. I dont see how this concept will enhance COMBAT.
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I know what you're getting at regarding slowing down combat. But how then would you suggest making repair rates more "realistic" for large ships??
When you see 3 cruisers pelting a single station with everything they have, and at the same time observe that the station armor/hull value is still going UP!!! by virtue of copious amounts of repair drones being applied to it..... it makes the game a bit ridiculous, wouldn't you say?
Something is wrong here when my torpedoes and cannons are drilling huge holes in the stations, and those newfangled nanite loaded drones are patching them up at the same rate, or even faster.... ?? That make any sense to you?
It comes to the point where ppl will log when they see a station spam because there is no point in playing the game.
How far apart are the armor levels of the stations vs the dreads?
If stations have twice the armor of dreads, shouldn't they take twice the time to rep? If they have 10 times as much armor when compared to cruisers, they should also take 10 times longer to rep (given the same number of rep drones applied).
Combat won't be slow if ppl would just get into another one of their garaged ships (or spawn a new one) and get back into the fight.... instead of just sitting there and waiting for their favorite ship to be repped while the remnant of their fleet is screaming for reinforcements.
I think this new "no-honor" community (as you call it) is actually doing things right for combat. You wanna respawn at the depot planet in your 5% ship and sit there to rep?
No chance! Hit them right there and then and force them to respawn in another new ship to carry on the fight. That's how the battles should run. You rep when there's a complete lull in combat.
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On 2010-05-13 21:53, BackSlash wrote:
Honestly, even when playing UGTO most of the time I'm waiting for my hull to repair, not my armour. One thing to do, and I have argued quite passionately about this over dev channels, is the increasing of hull repair rate. This would allow all ships back into the fight faster. However it's a tricky subject, and one best handled with steady hands and comfortable pace.
One thing I'm for is removing the recharge rate on UGTO armour completely. Never really seen the point of it, one of those things that I might be beaten over if I change though (mostly K'luth dev).
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What's a compromise? Reduce armor rep rate, and increase hull rep rate?
I still say we should have a drone limit per ship. If 3 sounds too slow, then perhaps 5. But please... we have to stop situations where 5 stations are sitting on one station, repairing it with 15 or more drones at a go.
Or implement a system for all factions where hull will have to be repped to 100% first before armor starts to regenerate? It would make sense, since the hull is covered by armor, and has to be patched up first.
Of course, shields will be exempt, since they are projected from an emitter.
This could give ICC the buff they need. True, their hull will have to be repped fully before their armor starts, but their shields are constantly recharging.
And perhaps because of this, they will be more on par vs UGTO ships?
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-05-13 23:17
Interesting thought.
Hull is quite squishy compared to armour and shield, so I'm all for buffing the speed of which (percentile-wise) get repaired in favour of armour not repairing before hull is at 100%.
However... Sometimes I'll jump back into the fight with a bit of armour, even at 50% hull if I think I can help my comrades kill the enemy before we/I die. The risk being that if we fail, my ship will fall all the more quicker. It's a tactical thing, and I'm not find of removing things like that. Very much like a K'luth ship uncloaking even though damaged if he thinks he can help is faction destroy a ship before it kills them.
Perhaps slowing armour repair rate whilst hull is below 100% would suit better... Something for us to look at anyway.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-05-13 23:20 ]
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DarkCloudd
Grand Admiral
Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 85
From: Iowa
| Posted: 2010-05-14 01:39
Maybe I'm reading too much into it and correct me if i'm wrong but the way it works at least for UTGO is they have 3 layers,2 of armor and the hull. First layer is the hull, second is the inner layer of armor, and third is the outer layer of armor. My thinking is and it would make sense from a real world aspect of it is that the Hull get repaired first, first layer of armor gets repaired next and the outer layer gets repaired last. So a completely hulled dread with no armor would repair the hull first, then the first layer of armor would start to repair after that, then the third layer of armor lastly. It would add a new aspect to the tatics of it because in a running light fight a dread or anything could jump back in with full hull and 50% armor and add a whole new get of guns that could turn the tide in the battle, but run the risk of getting focused on and going down faster than a regular one could.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-05-14 02:20
I said it once and I will say it again.....Slow down the repair rate IN combat not OUT of combat. Use the same system that the blockade is run on, only for ships instead. Slows it down while in combat but its not completely gone, and when all is safe, the cap is lifted. This would fix the uber repair rate that UGTO has while IN combat, which should go to ICC. This cap should be on UGTO ships only as Kluth is...well Kluth (organic ships and all that), and ICC has there shields that should get a recharge from drones when there off. This fixes the massive repair rate that UGTO can get when all ships focus on one ship or when said ship is in orbit of a depot built planet. However as I said, it doesn't stop the return to combat, it just slows down the repair rate while IN combat which is where the issue lies.
Assault Disruptor's DO more damage, but it SEEMS like the HCL dose more because of the organic armor of Kluth. Also the AD's have no damage fall off, HCL dose. This is the same with the CL and Disruptor as well.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-14 02:43
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On 2010-05-14 01:39, Fatal DarkCloudd wrote:
Maybe I'm reading too much into it and correct me if i'm wrong but the way it works at least for UTGO is they have 3 layers,2 of armor and the hull. First layer is the hull, second is the inner layer of armor, and third is the outer layer of armor. My thinking is and it would make sense from a real world aspect of it is that the Hull get repaired first, first layer of armor gets repaired next and the outer layer gets repaired last. So a completely hulled dread with no armor would repair the hull first, then the first layer of armor would start to repair after that, then the third layer of armor lastly. It would add a new aspect to the tatics of it because in a running light fight a dread or anything could jump back in with full hull and 50% armor and add a whole new get of guns that could turn the tide in the battle, but run the risk of getting focused on and going down faster than a regular one could.
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3 layers??
The only faction who has 3 layers would be ICC. You have Shields, Armor, then hull.
Both Kluth and UGTO only has 2 layers. I can't fathom why you would say otherwise except perhaps for the fact that UGTO has really badass tough armor.
Weapon balancing is already a tricky act. You tweak the range a bit, and half the world hates it, half the world hails it. You tweak the ranges, and parliament goes into session. Yes... we are all guilty of it, me included.
It would be wise to not do much tweaking to weaps range/damage/ROF.
Neither should we touch armor/shields strength. That is 2nd rate heresy apparently.
What's left that's safe to play with? Repair rates, repair orders. Something that you will not tangibly feel.
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On 2010-05-14 02:20, Starcommand of ICC wrote:
I said it once and I will say it again.....Slow down the repair rate IN combat not OUT of combat. Use the same system that the blockade is run on, only for ships instead. Slows it down while in combat but its not completely gone, and when all is safe, the cap is lifted. This would fix the uber repair rate that UGTO has while IN combat, which should go to ICC. This cap should be on UGTO ships only as Kluth is...well Kluth (organic ships and all that), and ICC has there shields that should get a recharge from drones when there off. This fixes the massive repair rate that UGTO can get when all ships focus on one ship or when said ship is in orbit of a depot built planet. However as I said, it doesn't stop the return to combat, it just slows down the repair rate while IN combat which is where the issue lies.
Assault Disruptor's DO more damage, but it SEEMS like the HCL dose more because of the organic armor of Kluth. Also the AD's have no damage fall off, HCL dose. This is the same with the CL and Disruptor as well.
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Yes it might be a good idea. But if said UGTO station jumped or WH out to his depot planet, while you were being dictored in the battle area.... it wouldn't fix anything right?
He could still jump to his depot planet with 15 supply plats in orbit, have his 5 suppie remoras tail him out, and he'll be back in under 5 minutes to mop the floor with the remnants of your dicted fleet.
The key to end all the apparent supremacy of the insta-rep station is to reduce repair rates at all time, for all ship classes, for all factions.
Az said it would slow down combat? I don't think so. 'Cos trust me... there'll prob be people who will still track and attack you at your resupp point.
Other than that, I would suggest repair order as suggested above. Anytime the hull falls below 100%, all armor rep/regen will stop and focus on hull reps until it hits 100% again.
ICC shields being the exception. They still regen regardless of hull or armor, as long as you have energy. That in itself will already give ICC sort of a buff.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-14 02:47 ]
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-05-14 02:46
is this possible ?
your ship get repaired at 5% hull / armor per sec
when you get hit, your repair-rate drop for a few seconds (maybe only 2.5% per sec)
this way, ships under fire take longer to repair (it would make sense, because repair-crews are in danger, repairing the ship)
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DarkCloudd
Grand Admiral
Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 85
From: Iowa
| Posted: 2010-05-14 02:52
[quote]
On 2010-05-14 02:43, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-05-14 01:39, Fatal DarkCloudd wrote:
Maybe I'm reading too much into it and correct me if i'm wrong but the way it works at least for UTGO is they have 3 layers,2 of armor and the hull. First layer is the hull, second is the inner layer of armor, and third is the outer layer of armor. My thinking is and it would make sense from a real world aspect of it is that the Hull get repaired first, first layer of armor gets repaired next and the outer layer gets repaired last. So a completely hulled dread with no armor would repair the hull first, then the first layer of armor would start to repair after that, then the third layer of armor lastly. It would add a new aspect to the tatics of it because in a running light fight a dread or anything could jump back in with full hull and 50% armor and add a whole new get of guns that could turn the tide in the battle, but run the risk of getting focused on and going down faster than a regular one could.
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3 layers??
The only faction who has 3 layers would be ICC. You have Shields, Armor, then hull.
Both Kluth and UGTO only has 2 layers. I can't fathom why you would say otherwise except perhaps for the fact that UGTO has really badass tough armor.
Yes technically they have 3 layers you must have not understood what i said. Most UTGO and luth ships have 2 layers of armor per arc not one like ICC but we have a shield to act as our second layer of armor. You cant start to hull a UTGO ship till you get through both layers of armor on one particular side, same with luth but it depends on what ship you are flying on whether there is 2 layers of armor on every arc.
How bout you try looking at what I actually said before you immediately quote it and say I dont know what I'm talking about when you find something you dont think is right.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-14 02:59
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On 2010-05-14 02:52, Fatal DarkCloudd wrote:
Yes technically they have 3 layers you must have not understood what i said. Most UTGO and luth ships have 2 layers of armor per arc not one like ICC but we have a shield to act as our second layer of armor. You cant start to hull a UTGO ship till you get through both layers of armor on one particular side, same with luth but it depends on what ship you are flying on whether there is 2 layers of armor on every arc.
How bout you try looking at what I actually said before you immediately quote it and say I dont know what I'm talking about when you find something you dont think is right.
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You mean the layers on the rings? I've counted stations with 10 ring layers... 
Or do you mean the armor slots per side?
But isn't that supposed to be the case?
UGTO always has heavier armor. But it can still be whittled down with coordinated fire. If you've noticed, Kluths still manage to take them down pretty quick with coordinate attacks. Casualties are unavoidable, but it's war.
You have your shields, and you have your armor. Each of them may not be as strong as UGTO's armor, granted, but then you can rotate your shields to compensate.
And IF... hopefully if... Jack does go along with the hull before armor rep... then you guys already have an advantage with the shields.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-14 03:00 ]
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