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a minor issue with cloak |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2010-07-26 10:07
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On 2010-07-26 10:00, Marius Falix wrote:
Well yeah ....no "skill" as its claimed to be is lets face it... hitting V and being able to lose the enemy firing on ya... which face it is bloody easy when they cant see you. -_-
perhaps when a ship gets within 50-100 gu of cloaked ship, it sig shows... ya know the red targetting diamond.
what do luth have to complain about that? we are gettting CLOSER!
(im ICC close = bad)
i mean luth cloak, atleast give us a way for a ship to take on its alien counterpart in an engagement.
coz unless you accidently jump the poor sod you aint gonna know till he shoots u in the arse, and when ya do, kluth will probably keep firing and possibly wipe you out.
but if thees someway you were blessed with survival and manage to turn that slagged ship around and manage to get close to the guy, i do believe itd be fair TO LET THE POOR GUY SHOOT BACK!.
this is just a theoretical one vs one here.
since luth hunt in packs i think it wouldnt make that much of a difference if ya get this implemented.
just means they cant go overkill and be hugging ur ass before they all uncloak.
and yes this will make luth require skill as you would have to "dance" with ur opponent, (best firing range for luth dread =250?) youd have to keep em close enough to fire effectively yet keep em out of range so they dont see ya.
= would actually require some semblence of skill
as for planets i think the suggested plans are good, maybe no that effective but hopefully enough.
Thoughts? srsly Luth dont start spouting... bad things about how u are skillfull -_-
using team work is not skill its just smart, and ur team NEED to use it in a major engagement... so the team actually does pay attention and work together.
and if skill = dodging while invis u can just stfu.
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TBH, there is no skill involved in DS. This is not a twitch game like COD, DOD, CS or Battlefield which requires your twitch skills/reflexes.
It's a game of smarts and tactical decisions. I've rarely seen a K'luth take on an equivalent counterpart 1 on 1 (no enh involved pls) and come out tops. At most he's looking to score damage and pres and then get the hell out of dodge.
Your problem lies in the wolfpack. I agree with what Geja and Jack said. Cloak gives us a distinct tactical advantage. It buys us valuable time to mount a coordinated attack.
If you realized (yes you have!), K'luths will always single out a target one by one and reduce your numbers down. We have to do it. If 6 K'luths vs 6 ICCs went head to head, and each one of them went after their own individual targets.... they lose. Simple as that. You will most likely see 6 of them gank 1 or 2 of your numbers to whittle down the numbers quickly.
That is the only way K'luth can win and survive.
Now that being said, I guess you guys do need something to mitigate the cloak.
For clusters/planets, perhaps:
- Special structure which auto pings at a fixed interval
For ships, perhaps:
- Anti cloak torp (dets and drops cloak of any K'luth within a small radius)
- Bio-scanner (tied to your F2 tactical to allow you to see K'luth as blips within a given radius)
Weaken cloak, perhap:
- Make it like a submarine, such that speed will affect cloak.... perhaps moving at 80% of max speed, the cloak ship will present a shimmering cloaked "Predator" effect so that you can notice something in the area.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-07-26 10:28
That particular cluster has been bombed, rebuilt, and bombed over and over. Not to mention has been saboed more then once too. If the Myco cluster was built with at least 4 sensor bases on it (like it normally dose) luth don't dare get in close to Michelle at all.
If lock was back to what it SHOULD be, clusters would be perfect fortresses again, good at both anti UGTO and anti Kluth (since planets support one another). But alas planet auto unlock now making it real easy for lesser players to hop on to an alt and sabo it up. However thats a different story for a different topic.
Geje put it perfectly. Cloak is the key word here, something the I myself for years has been saying is the prime example of why Kluth are so powerful. Yet I get shot down every time as being QQ this or fanboi that because of my position as ICC. Now the arguments of the entire ICC faction have been said NOT by us, but by a mod.
It has been suggested over and over, for something that just flat out defeats cloak. Beacons COULD be one option, allowing them to be swappable with guns again, like the old days. Thus giving every ship the ability to attempt to counter cloak. Another one would be a replacement for the interdictor device, a blue looking dico that decloaks ships in a 1k radius. Others have been Torpedo's that do this, or buildings on planets. Take your pick, the player base has come up with some very good BALANCED ideas on how to fix the Kluth issue.
Sensor bases already auto ping, but only every 30 seconds (the cooldown) and it doesn't stack with more bases. I have noticed this because I was fighting 2 luthies alone in a cluster in Proc. Noticed that something, that wasn't me, pinged. Allowing me to see where the 1 luth station and siphon were for a second, and allowing me to focus on an area to launch missiles into, and focus my own pings (was in a HC). Unless it was the sensor platforms near me, something pinged.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-26 12:00
Nothing can be done to stop someone who doesn't care about dying from getting close to a severely damaged enemy for the kill. But simply negating cloak around planets would handicap Kluth way more than humans are handicapped. They don't have the armor to withstand defense bases the way humans do.
Beware negating cloak around planets, because it will promote even more planet hugging by humans and promote more deep space lurking by Kluth. That's where their advantages will be and that's what they will try to use.
A better solution is to make sensor bases ping more effectively. Planet defenses are pretty bad anyway, I think we all know that. Who's afraid of a planet with a lot of Offense II bases? Nobody. What uses do anti-sensor bases have? Very few, and they're temporary.
(bombs should not have a signature btw, they should always be visible and never be affected by ecm/eccm).
Planetary pinging is the key. When a Kluth is pinged near a planet, all the defense bases fire on it. The pinging can't be fast or timed in such a way that it becomes equal to a scout's capability, but it needs to be able to ping.
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2010-07-26 15:04
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On 2010-07-25 21:25, BackSlash wrote:
We've been looking at negating cloak around enemy planets for a while now, got a few more things on the drawing board to be looked at, and then I'll see if we can't get this pushed inbetween somewhere.
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just make the cloak drain more energy then the ship can replenish the closer to a enemy planet we are.
not a HUGE ammount tho mind you, just enough to prevent us from camping enemy planets for to long without being forced to uncloak.
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2010-07-26 15:55
One would think a ships sensors would be more effective at detecting another ship the closer it is.
So perhaps a cloaked ship 500gu away would go undetected but you should be able to see the one sitting literally right on top of you.
Would require K'Luth to put more thought into their approach to a target and would prevent them from disengaging so easily.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-07-26 16:25
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On 2010-07-26 16:05, Necrotic wrote:
...Why they dont get our imput is beyond me.
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Mostly because 90% of player input is along the lines of:
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we do feel superior becuse we only play to be the best its the only acceptable goal. So when someone says kluth take no skills to play. Most of kluth are multi year vets some of us have been here since the begining of the game. We take pride in our accomplishments and in our faction that we have played for years. We have endured years and years of complaining and harrassment for using kluth as it was designed regardless of patch.
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Which is basically useless to developers, because it solves nothing and adds nothing.
Also, if you're going to try and write a response, it helps if you do things like answer posed questions rather than just pick a specific paragraph and go off on a rant about how it's unnecessary whilst ignoring everything else. And, you know, read the entire thread just in case someone's refuted one of the posts your're quoting.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-07-26 18:06
Uh, people fly the Proboscis?
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-07-26 18:32
You know what, I'm tired of this. Let's try and get things back on track.
Problem: K'luth ships can basically go where they like when they're cloaked, because detecting them is really hard. This lets them do such lame things as finishing off damaged ships when inside a heavily defended cluster and surrounded by allied ships, which isn't really what was intended since that implies that they can basically go anywhere with impunity, which extends to things like running from battles, getting a good positioning, etc.
Thus, it would be nice to have suggestions as to how to deal with this that doesn't also nerf k'luth too much, because in a straight fight without cloaking they suck due to people being able to stay the hell away from them and shell them into oblivion.
Current thinking is to reveal k'luth when they get near planets, but then there's always the option of going back to an older style of cloaking, when using lots of ECCM would counter a k'luth's cloaking. Would probably need to be LOTS of ECCM in order to see them at anything more than really-close range, but it would give scouts something to do, at least.
Thoughts?
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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2010-07-26 19:11
its a difficult issue i agree on how to balance the cloak. cloaking factions have always been difficult to balance. Every factions wants to do something better v kluth. ICC want better cloak detection but also better close range damage. If you give these to icc what happens to the kluth close ranged superiority that defines their race? If you can better detect kluth the their close range is nullified forcing kluth to longer ranges in which they are not designed for. I suppose you could argue ICC fighting kluth brings then into close combat in which they arent designed for. Once you bring both into the middle give icc better close range and detection while removing kluth advantagous to being close range. Where does this then leave kluth? Does this remove their ability to get into close range in which to use their close range advantage?
Lets take a moment and discuss the impossible taking away the cloak entirly from kluth. Where does this leave kluth? You have a hit and run playstyle that can only do so on their faster jd charge. Their high visibility puts them at a disadvantage defensive wise. You would then have to increase kluth running speed and increase their armor and regen by alot to sustain combat in the open.
If cloak was so unfair then remove it. Il be the first to volenteer Lets be honest here what they really want is the kluth removed from the game. So they can fight just ugto v icc. If thats the direction the game want sto go remove kluth from the game entirely ill flip a coin and play for one of them just like i play for kluth. Im here to play the game becuse i enjoy it. I happen to enjoy the kluth playstyle. If its so unfair for kluth to be in the game then remove them. I would actually prefer it that way so i can stop being harrassed endlessly becuse i happen to choose a particular race in the game.
I understand people say this is unfair and that is unfair. We hear it in everygame. Does this mean they are right? hell no. Does this mean the people who are fighting for whatever advatage makes them unfair?no
The truth is noone will be happy unless we are all using the same ships with the exact capabilities so every player is exactly the same ensuring everything is perfectly even and fair. Everyone will always complain about their enemies and talk great about themselves this is one aspect of humanity. We all know good and well if this post wasnt about how op and unfair kluth is just take out kluth and insert ugto change acouple words and suddenly ugto is op and unfair.
In life there are 2 kinds of people. The people who talk about equality and fairness. Or the people who confront difficulty as a challenge regardless of how unfair it is. Life isnt fair it never was and never will be and neither can we expect this from any massivly multiplayer game. One time or anouther your gonna find yourself against odds that you to find unfair.Thats the way it is
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-26 19:13
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On 2010-07-26 18:32, Gejaheline wrote:
You know what, I'm tired of this. Let's try and get things back on track.
Problem: K'luth ships can basically go where they like when they're cloaked, because detecting them is really hard. This lets them do such lame things as finishing off damaged ships when inside a heavily defended cluster and surrounded by allied ships, which isn't really what was intended since that implies that they can basically go anywhere with impunity, which extends to things like running from battles, getting a good positioning, etc.
Thus, it would be nice to have suggestions as to how to deal with this that doesn't also nerf k'luth too much, because in a straight fight without cloaking they suck due to people being able to stay the hell away from them and shell them into oblivion.
Current thinking is to reveal k'luth when they get near planets, but then there's always the option of going back to an older style of cloaking, when using lots of ECCM would counter a k'luth's cloaking. Would probably need to be LOTS of ECCM in order to see them at anything more than really-close range, but it would give scouts something to do, at least.
Thoughts?
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I've always been a fan of the old system BUT bombs need to have no sig and always be visible, because with a system like that Kluth will require ECM and ECM hides enemy bombs. It's why anti-sensor bases are totally useless. If bombs were always visible anti-sensor bases could have some interesting uses.
There's also the problem of Kluth ships not having many ECM slots so it's really easy to counter their ECM. I don't mean their cruisers and dreads which should have 1 slot max (except in my beta proposal), I mean their scouts and frigates.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-07-26 19:14
for the record, other older cloak systems worked like this:
1: ECCM slowly drained energy. ECCM stacked drain and distance. the distance stacking was ridiculous. energy drain made some sense but was a bit much at time
2: cloak covered a ships base sig. ECCM raised it. ECM lowered it. problem was the ECM and ECCM forts that cropped up. a planet with all ECM bases couldnt be countered because youd have to bring 20 scouts loaded with ECCM to pierce it. this was also when kluth could fire while cloaked. invisible death beams = bad
3: current system, ECCM pings for a fraction of a second and pilots are left trying to guess where the invisible things are moving, meaning the average ICC and UGTO pilot is wasting a lot of ammunition and/or energy firing off into space trying to find the target. also, since not everyone is going to ping endlessly forever, kluth still sneak up on you. ive seen a fleet of kluth uncloak in a semi circle around a station and kill it instantly, which is the sort of thing that made us get rid of ECM forts.
other tidbits:
used to be able to see damage through cloak
used to be able to fire and jump while cloaked
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-07-26 19:28
Giving planetary defenses a massive boost would solve this issue and several others. If a planet cluster loaded with bases was an actual THREAT instead of the pitiful jokes they are currently then you wouldn't see things like this happening because people would have to really think twice about whether it's worth it or not to kill a few platforms or a ship at low hull/armor/shields when they run a real risk of being destroyed themselves in the process.
Yes it's beyond annoying when cloaked transports can fly to within 50 GU of a planet totally undetected, then drop and recloak without being destroyed regardless of how many bases (both offense and sensor) are present, but that's largely an issue of planetary defenses being utterly worthless.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-26 19:41
For the record, Lark's #2 system is the one I liked. Also for the record, it has it's own problems, like Kluth being defenseless if outnumbered. ECM forts on the other hand I have no problem with. It's really the only use anti-sensor bases have if like i said bombs aren't affected.
There's enough people playing these days that it shouldn't be too difficult to counter ECM or ECCM. It's just that when the sides are uneven, it makes it even harder. If Kluth are outnumbered they can't approach humans and if humans are outnumbered they can't reveal cloak at all (assuming Kluth bring appropriate ECM ships). That in turn will lead to people leaving the area or just logging off for a while.
ECCM should never affect Kluth's energy usage like in #1. The 2nd system was much better.
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On 2010-07-25 22:45, BackSlash wrote:
Kenny, K'luth are currently very powerful and have a huge advantage at this sort of cluster/planet warfare, and is one of the reasons why K'luth hold such a big % of Sagittarius.
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Umm they hold the same % as ICC and UGTO, and have since the new layout more or less.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-07-26 21:25 ]
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Cory_O
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 15, 2010
Posts: 104
| Posted: 2010-07-26 19:48
I think that having eccm's on planets auto ping every so often, maybe every 15 seconds or so would be a good place to start with helping balance out kluth cloak a little without being of great detriment to the kluth. As it would only let people know they are there somewhere but wouldnt allow them to actually do anything about it without actively pinging themselves and trying to hunt them down. Which could easily be avoided by a kluth player, But it would greatly cut down on spawn camping i think, and would make the game more enjoyable for more people on all sides of the player base.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-07-26 21:53
re: planets; when kluth want to take planets its fairly easy for them. they havent been trying to take planets though, theyve just been running combat ops. they are very capable of pushing ICC or UGTO right out of Sag.
for planets:
one possibility is to make planet ECCM run differently than ship ECCM. it is a planet afterall, one presumes its resources are much greater than a ships. having planetary ECCM run by draining energy of cloaked ships, for instance, would be a quick fix that would still let kluth sneak in. it shouldnt stack though. the stacking thing is what made it ridiculous. or if it does stack it should have diminishing returns.
there is also the cloak rework i posted and that got moved to beta, ppl can comment/edit that to their liking and see what comes of it. adding special provisions for planets would be nice.
i dont think we are ever going back to ECM forting. that was just insane =(
the cost of dying in larger ships really needs to be upped too. people treat dreadnaughts and stations like theyre entirely disposable. it really ruins gameplay; people dont care about dying, so they do crazy things or dont help one another
[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-07-26 21:55 ]
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