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eccm |
Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
|  Posted: 2011-05-25 21:46
if you find me on i will gladly Beta with you to find the exact issues you are having.
i dont fly luth often and the last i did it was fun and at times incredibly easy.
(yay for cloak)
but i have also notcied that hunting luth cloaked in the area to be rather easy compared to what it used to be.
(that being infuriating pings lasting 0.5 seconds while dreads fired everywhere except at the dread)
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2011-05-26 07:56
Okay, just to clarify a couple of things:
ECCM (and hence pinging) has a range of 400 gu. Unless I'm sorely mistaken, there's a falloff of ECCM's effects as you move further away from the ship using the ECCM.
When you ping, you're essentially causing the target's signature to rise slightly. If the ship is cloaked, it becomes briefly visible (and by visible here I mean targetable) because its signature takes time to fall back to zero. This is what lets you press E and shoot at them.
However, the amount of time that the cloaked ship becomes visible for depends on what its signature is when it's not cloaked, including any ECCM or sensor bases that might be running.
This means that if you're a lone ship using one ECCM slot to ping in deep space, most of the time you won't actually see them for long enough to target them. In extreme cases you can actually never see the cloaked ship because it appears for an infinitesimal period of time.
However, it also means that if the target is a station orbiting a planet with 30 sensor bases and you have hundreds of ECCM scouts, the cloaked ship might become visible for a very long period of time; enough for a whole group of ships to shoot at them.
It's also completely in line with the normal interaction of cloaking and ECCM: the more ECCM, the longer it takes to become invisible.
In my personal, hopefully unbiased-but-I-promise-nothing opinion, checking to make sure the enemy doesn't have ECCM out of their ears is just part of the challenge of sneaking up on people, and being unable to auto-target when pinging would make it nigh impossible to get a fix on a cloaked ship because not only will they be visible for only a tiny period of time (which, incidentally, makes it really difficult to tell what direction they're travelling in) but you'll also have to then be looking in the right direction, CTRL+click accurately on the spot not where they are but where they will be when your projectiles arrive, and then open fire.
On the note of blind firing:
CTRL + clicking, firing, and then holding CTRL and dragging the target point around basically doesn't work. It LOOKS like you're firing at the target point, but as far as the server is concerned all of your shots will travel towards the original point that was targeted when you pressed the fire button.
In addition, and this I have heard from Jack but I shall personally test at some point, apparently shots appear to pass straight through perfectly cloaked ships, meaning that it's impossible for the enemy to tell if they're hitting a cloaked target. If the target isn't at completely zero signature they'll appear to be hit, but otherwise they might as well be made of air. Still does damage, though, and the cloaked ship will see the shots hitting.
Finally:
The original poster argues that pressing P and then hitting E to target a cloaked ship is too easy.
I would respond that pressing V to become perfectly invisible 90% of the time is even easier, and having to deal with the situations where cloaking doesn't work is all part of the skills required to fly K'luth ships.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2011-05-26 09:05
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 07:56, Gejaheline wrote:
In addition, and this I have heard from Jack but I shall personally test at some point, apparently shots appear to pass straight through perfectly cloaked ships
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Not the case. Manually aiming beams does not inflict damage on ships you aim them at (it will register on your client as damage, but not on the server, meaning as soon as the client re-syncs, their shields/armor/hull will shoot back up.
They will, however, still collide with cloaked ships.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2011-05-26 09:06 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-05-26 09:12
So basically "beam sweeps" are good for finding cloaked ships, but not for actually damaging them? Fair enough I suppose.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-26 09:19
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 09:12, Talien wrote:
So basically "beam sweeps" are good for finding cloaked ships, but not for actually damaging them? Fair enough I suppose.
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Now that's broken isn't it?
If yr beams hit me it's supposed to do damage unless you're invoking some weird law of physics that says since I'm invisible and light passes through me, lasers do no damage.
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Fatal Perihelion
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 308
| Posted: 2011-05-26 13:54
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 09:05, BackSlash wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 07:56, Gejaheline wrote:
In addition, and this I have heard from Jack but I shall personally test at some point, apparently shots appear to pass straight through perfectly cloaked ships
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Not the case. Manually aiming beams does not inflict damage on ships you aim them at (it will register on your client as damage, but not on the server, meaning as soon as the client re-syncs, their shields/armor/hull will shoot back up.
They will, however, still collide with cloaked ships.
[ This Message was edited by: Fatal Perihelion on 2011-05-26 13:59 ]
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Please can you explain this again even more detailed ?
You are saying:
If you move around Beams with Ctrl + Mouse you will see the Beams coliding but actualy doing no damage.
I figure you are also saying:
Manualy firing at a cloaked ship with Beams
does damage, but just if you move the Beams then, they wont do any aditional or continous damage to the moved area?
Because i think i recall that i killed cloaked afk Dreads just with using beams, no guns (manualy firing of course, as the ship is cloaked all the time.)
Thank you.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2011-05-26 14:17
ok they are just saying beam sweeps dont cause any damage even if the animation comes into contact with enemy ships. the original position you fired upon will recieve the damage.
selecting a ship and firing upon it is fine, the beams will track doing damage to the appropriate arks
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Died~2000~Deaths[+R]*CC*
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: February 08, 2010
Posts: 540
From: Spokane WA.
| Posted: 2011-05-26 19:34
wow didnt exspect this much feed back on this post. ive been playing kluth for a whil now ( no where as long as some ). just realized how much different it is compared to what it used to be to ping a cloaked ship. i guess its kinda like not seeing an old friend for years then when u do it's like wow u changed alot. lol
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ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom)
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: March 09, 2002
Posts: 363
From: Earth
| Posted: 2011-05-26 21:26
from my eperience playing kluth......
I feel that ECM should not effect a cloaked ship at all...
I remember when it didnt and then the effect that started known now as pinging was a bug that was unable to be fixed so it was made part of the game......
I think that making cloaked ships take longer to cloak or de-cloak is fine with ecm. but the cloak itself is not an electronic effect on sensors but a visual effect with light that makes a ship visible or invisible not electronicaly.
there should be no ping to make kluth ships visible for a sec thats just being lazy..... sure make it take longer to cloak or de-cloak but pinging....
come on now someone had to have figured out how to make it work right so that the bug now known as pinging can befixed....
maybe add effect when a cloaked ship passes in front of a near by star so that it can be seen like a glimmer or wave of light but honestly ecm should have never been able to effect cloak the way it has been.
there was a time when players had to use beacons to find cloaked ships....
so i guess because its boring to fly scouts it was made easy just use the ping bug and after a while we can just add it to the game.
by the way pinging use to never happen 3 years ago whatever was the cause of the ping maybey should be reviseted and adjusted....
I have not flown kluth in a while but I say get rid of the ping, after all it has always been and always will be just a bug that never got fixed.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-05-26 22:09
How are you supposed to use beacons to find cloaked ships? You need to be able to target them to fire a beacon at them, if they're cloaked you can't exactly do that.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-26 22:31
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 21:26, ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom) wrote:
from my eperience playing kluth......
I feel that ECM should not effect a cloaked ship at all...
I remember when it didnt and then the effect that started known now as pinging was a bug that was unable to be fixed so it was made part of the game......
I think that making cloaked ships take longer to cloak or de-cloak is fine with ecm. but the cloak itself is not an electronic effect on sensors but a visual effect with light that makes a ship visible or invisible not electronicaly.
there should be no ping to make kluth ships visible for a sec thats just being lazy..... sure make it take longer to cloak or de-cloak but pinging....
come on now someone had to have figured out how to make it work right so that the bug now known as pinging can befixed....
maybe add effect when a cloaked ship passes in front of a near by star so that it can be seen like a glimmer or wave of light but honestly ecm should have never been able to effect cloak the way it has been.
there was a time when players had to use beacons to find cloaked ships....
so i guess because its boring to fly scouts it was made easy just use the ping bug and after a while we can just add it to the game.
by the way pinging use to never happen 3 years ago whatever was the cause of the ping maybey should be reviseted and adjusted....
I have not flown kluth in a while but I say get rid of the ping, after all it has always been and always will be just a bug that never got fixed.
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I guess the only way to artificially fix the ping issue would be to set cloak signature at a ridiculous -100 sig, once the cloak flag is up. And once decloaked, start from 0 and rise.
That way, no amount of pinging will raise the sig enough to even get past 0.
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Blackjack [DBL]
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 344
From: The land of venomous reptiles.
| Posted: 2011-05-26 23:39
at -100 sig luth ships would be completely blind when cloaked. Lower sigs reduce sensor range at -100 luth ships would be unable to detect anything when cloaked.
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Fatal Perihelion
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 308
| Posted: 2011-05-27 04:23
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 21:26, ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom) wrote:
from my eperience playing kluth......
I feel that ECM should not effect a cloaked ship at all...
I remember when it didnt and then the effect that started known now as pinging was a bug that was unable to be fixed so it was made part of the game......
I think that making cloaked ships take longer to cloak or de-cloak is fine with ecm. but the cloak itself is not an electronic effect on sensors but a visual effect with light that makes a ship visible or invisible not electronicaly.
there should be no ping to make kluth ships visible for a sec thats just being lazy..... sure make it take longer to cloak or de-cloak but pinging....
come on now someone had to have figured out how to make it work right so that the bug now known as pinging can befixed....
maybe add effect when a cloaked ship passes in front of a near by star so that it can be seen like a glimmer or wave of light but honestly ecm should have never been able to effect cloak the way it has been.
there was a time when players had to use beacons to find cloaked ships....
so i guess because its boring to fly scouts it was made easy just use the ping bug and after a while we can just add it to the game.
by the way pinging use to never happen 3 years ago whatever was the cause of the ping maybey should be reviseted and adjusted....
I have not flown kluth in a while but I say get rid of the ping, after all it has always been and always will be just a bug that never got fixed.
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Are you serious? Isnt cloaking easy and chilling enough? Dont you survive almost any batttle if you want.
As a non Kluth even jumping out is dangerous.
If it was a bug or not, this submarine sonar like pinging is one of the best mechanics in this game.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2011-05-27 05:35
Quote:
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ECCM (and hence pinging) has a range of 400 gu. Unless I'm sorely mistaken, there's a falloff of ECCM's effects as you move further away from the ship using the ECCM.
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From experience, I can say that ECM has a range formula of 200+(level*25) gu, and ECCM has a range formula of 400+(level*50) gu. So a dread can ping from a maximum of 700 gu, while a station can ping from a max of 900, and effectively from 800 and less distance.
Quote:
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On 2011-05-27 04:23, Fatal Perihelion wrote:
Are you serious? Isnt cloaking easy and chilling enough? Dont you survive almost any battle if you want.
As a non Kluth even jumping out is dangerous.
If it was a bug or not, this submarine sonar like pinging is one of the best mechanics in this game.
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We survive a battle because you don't try enough to kill us. Our high mass armor and gadgets mean that you can fairly outmaneuver us, and then we have to cloak and break off. Admittedly, killing a K'Luth is challenging because of the ability to cloak and jump, but persistence will result in them either fleeing, or fighting to death. Jumping out of battle is dangerous for human ships because the enemy can decide to persist after you, and that does not guarantee finding you unless you are being chased by a group.
The primary purpose of cloak is to remove the ability to directly perceive our direction, speed and position. It also removes the ability to lock-on, something that you noobs have become dearly attached with.
Pinging is a good mechanic, but when coupled with blind-firing it becomes a fatal counter to our dreads. The smaller ships are either not a significant threat, or can be killed easily; while the stations are best not using cloak, or they risk dying with weak armor and slow engines.
In my opinion, either blindfiring should be nerfed somehow (ex-beams pass through cloaked ships instead of colliding), or pinging should be removed. Why should a EAD be able to figure out my position when it has nothing to counter my electromagnetic and photonic countermeasure system? Why should a tiny and weak microwave oven be able to cause my technologically advanced energy-hogging countermeasure system to occasionally yet effectively fail?
[ This Message was edited by: Brahmastra on 2011-05-27 05:40 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2011-05-27 08:10
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 22:09, Talien wrote:
How are you supposed to use beacons to find cloaked ships? You need to be able to target them to fire a beacon at them, if they're cloaked you can't exactly do that.
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Beacons don't explicitly find cloaked ships.
A cloaked ship getting hit by a beacon will feel no immediate ill effects; they will not be decloaked, no will the beacon reveal their position. What a beacon WILL do, however, is raise that ship's signature when the cloaked ship attempts to cloak or decloak, making it take longer for them to do so.
So really the best time to use beacons is when the target is still visible, because then your allies get more time to shoot at them when they try to cloak.
Quote:
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On 2011-05-26 23:39, Da Bes Loser *FCA* wrote:
at -100 sig luth ships would be completely blind when cloaked. Lower sigs reduce sensor range at -100 luth ships would be unable to detect anything when cloaked.
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Since it depends on the TARGET ship's signature and not the detecting ship's, having a signature of -100 would make enemy ships just as detectable as if you had +100 signature.
The only reason that it seems to be hard to detect enemy ships when your signature is low is because 99% of signature-changing devices have an area of effect, meaning that a stealth ship will make all ships around it harder to detect.
Finally:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-27 05:35, Brahmastra wrote:
We survive a battle because you don't try enough to kill us.
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That's because when K'luth ships are cloaked it's difficult to focus enough gunfire on them to kill them, whereas targets that are currently active and attacking are a) higher threats and b) actually hittable.
Quote:
| Our high mass armor and gadgets mean that you can fairly outmaneuver us, and then we have to cloak and break off.
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Actually, K'luth armour is the lightest of all ship armour, and the only reason ICC are more manoeuvrable is because they only have one armour plate instead of two, and shields are weightless. UGTO have the slowest ships in the game.
Quote:
| Admittedly, killing a K'Luth is challenging because of the ability to cloak and jump, but persistence will result in them either fleeing, or fighting to death. Jumping out of battle is dangerous for human ships because the enemy can decide to persist after you, and that does not guarantee finding you unless you are being chased by a group.
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Killing a K'luth ship is also difficult because they can heal themselves at a surprising rate, will typically be a dreadnaught, and because a ship that can kill a K'luth ship quickly will not be able to detect them and vice versa, meaning that to kill a K'luth ship you typically need two ships; a detector and a fighter. Inevitably, the detector will be a light ship that K'luth excel at killing due to their main weapons never missing and their ability to only engage when in an optimal position.
Quote:
| The primary purpose of cloak is to remove the ability to directly perceive our direction, speed and position. It also removes the ability to lock-on, something that you noobs have become dearly attached with. |
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Why yes, I am a fan of being able to lock onto targets, because trying to fight whilst manually targeting requires approximately three hands and godlike aiming skills, as anyone whom has attempted to shoot at an ECM scout will attest to. Add to this the fact that, due to cloak, the target's position, heading and speed is unknown and you're basically reduced to randomly firing in all directions.
Quote:
| Pinging is a good mechanic, but when coupled with blind-firing it becomes a fatal counter to our dreads. The smaller ships are either not a significant threat, or can be killed easily; while the stations are best not using cloak, or they risk dying with weak armor and slow engines. |
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Pinging when coupled with blind-firing may ostensibly be deadly (if you have a whole bunch of ships that can target accurately in the split-second the target's position is known), but pinging WITHOUT blind-firing is utterly useless.
"Fantastic, A K'luth ship is sneaking up behind me and is getting ready to kill me. My options are:
a) Turn around so that I can get shot in the side instead of the back, although odds are that the K'luth ship will just decline to decloak and reposition instead;
b) Jump away!"
Option a) merely delays the inevitable, option b) completely removes you from the fight. In fact, the entire fleet might as well just jump away since they can't do anything about the cloaked ship.
Quote:
| In my opinion, either blindfiring should be nerfed somehow (ex-beams pass through cloaked ships instead of colliding), or pinging should be removed. |
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The first option there basically turns cloaking from invisibility to actual invincibility, and the second makes cloaking perfect and the first indication that a K'luth ship is present will typically be death or extreme damage.
Quote:
| Why should a EAD be able to figure out my position when it has nothing to counter my electromagnetic and photonic countermeasure system? Why should a tiny and weak microwave oven be able to cause my technologically advanced energy-hogging countermeasure system to occasionally yet effectively fail? |
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Counterpoint: "Why should my highly sophisticated EM cloaking system that perfectly bends all radiation around me with no distortion allow me to see the outside world? Any light that would hit my sensors is going around me."
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