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ICC whats become of it.......? |
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
|  Posted: 2009-10-20 18:56
If you can't reduce the energy cost, then you might as well just let shields give more bang for their buck. Make em stronger? Why not, they already have the worst weapons in the game.
But the defensive faction having the best defenses is such crazy talk.
So far it seems like we've been trying to base the ICC design off of using specific tactics to make them the only way they work well. Forcing ICC to fight at a distance, mixing their shields, constantly jumping out and in, using dictors, short jumps, etc. JUST to make them work.
And that doesn't seem very right to me, since every other faction relies on a bit more straightforward measures to get anywhere with them.
There never has seemed a point where we must make armor > shield. So they have better defenses, with more HP and regen per arc than armor. But they can't use reloads to boost it, and they have to wait on it. Not to mention energy requirements, something the other faction doesnt have to worry about, limiting their speed.
So instead of just nerfing thier energy need, just make their shields better than armor, to the point where you can pretty much safely remove most of the armor off ICC ships. Its a simple solution. One I don't expect to catch on but ICC needs some loving some how.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2009-10-20 19:05 ]
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-10-20 19:18
the problem with giving shields more hp, is that it doesn't solve the problem of running out of energy.
No energy=no weapons=no shield regen=reduced engine reactions
Say for example shields have 500hp. By the time that 500hp is used up, so will my energy.
Now double that hp, shields now have 1000. You know what the only difference is? For the last 500 hp im not shooting you.
The biggest problem is lack of energy which cripples every aspect of flying ICC, and I don't what being "single digits" is, but if you can't nerf the amount of energy draw that shields use, then create an ICC specific reactor/generator to counter the issue, you could even integrate the energy production into the aux shield gens (which means every ships would need an aux shield gen added for each shield/arc), and completely remove shields off of the main power grid.
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Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
| Posted: 2009-10-20 19:23
what about drop ICC shield power req by let say 33% and see what it does or just add aux generator to all...
[ This Message was edited by: Dwarden on 2009-10-20 19:24 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-10-20 22:09
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So far it seems like we've been trying to base the ICC design off of using specific tactics to make them the only way they work well. Forcing ICC to fight at a distance, mixing their shields, constantly jumping out and in, using dictors, short jumps, etc. JUST to make them work.
And that doesn't seem very right to me, since every other faction relies on a bit more straightforward measures to get anywhere with them.
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Hence why I suggested also buffing shields. So that instead of ICC ONLY being able to fight effectively with all those tactics, the use of those tactics gives them a profound advantage, but they're still able to fight on somewhat even terms without them.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2009-10-21 03:10
Quote:
| Now double that hp, shields now have 1000. You know what the only difference is? For the last 500 hp im not shooting you.
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That's a bit exaggerated. I've never been in a combat situation where my energy ran out before my shields did. They're only Standard Armour with the ability to rotate: that just means it's going to blow through more of its HP when facing concentrated fire, instead of still having other facings to work with.
Increasing energy gains from the ICC Aux Gen may be an answer, but I'm not sure how good of one it is. Any solution that'd make using PFEs an option rather than a necessity'd be nice, though. I get it, defensive faction and everything, but that doesn't mean we really need to be hampered down by things to make us jump out faster.
We already have limited ammo, energy woes, slow shield regen (the other shields just aren't much of an option) and weaponry that leaves things to wish for; we really don't need that many reasons to make us jump a lot.
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Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
| Posted: 2009-10-21 08:28
"We already have limited ammo, energy woes, slow shield regen (the other shields just aren't much of an option) and weaponry that leaves things to wish for; we really don't need that many reasons to make us jump a lot. "
Oh how true.........
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Mr Black
Grand Admiral
Palestar
Joined: September 20, 2003
Posts: 486
From: Gaifenland
| Posted: 2009-10-21 08:32
Moving to Tactics and New Players as a lot of information here is useful to them...
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-10-21 08:47
If the idea of independantly jacking up recharge rates or energy levels is bad or could lead to some type of exploit, then why not introduce an energy supply. It could be a seperate supply module that drains energy from the supply's battery and force charges the ship that is being healed. Maybe just make a module and put it on the current supplies, if not make a new ship altogether (I like new ships idea myself..).
I know the idea has been tossed about to make depots and supply mods just also supply energy, but I'd really like to see something more original and imaginative.
Also, I think if it was just something that allowed a player to siphon some of his own energy off with, it leads to much less exploit.
Add grouping, and I think this could be a valuable addition for ICC or K'Luth.
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-10-21 19:44
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On 2009-10-21 08:47, Azreal wrote:
If the idea of independantly jacking up recharge rates or energy levels is bad or could lead to some type of exploit, then why not introduce an energy supply. It could be a seperate supply module that drains energy from the supply's battery and force charges the ship that is being healed. Maybe just make a module and put it on the current supplies, if not make a new ship altogether (I like new ships idea myself..).
I know the idea has been tossed about to make depots and supply mods just also supply energy, but I'd really like to see something more original and imaginative.
Also, I think if it was just something that allowed a player to siphon some of his own energy off with, it leads to much less exploit.
Add grouping, and I think this could be a valuable addition for ICC or K'Luth.
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The "energy supply" drone is an interesting idea, but as you said one sentence later, just make depots/ supply ships recharge shields, why make things more complicated than it has to be?
The only problem with an energy supply drone, is that if someone is fighting without one of those by their side, they are back to square one on the energy crisis. And supply ships are also destroyed very easily, and personally I wouldn't want to see a new kind of supply ship that was armored like a dread.
An ICC ship needs to be able to stand on its own in terms of energy capacity/recharge. How would you like it if you needed a seperate ship just to use the cloak?
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-10-21 21:45
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On 2009-10-21 19:44, Light404 wrote:
The "energy supply" drone is an interesting idea, but as you said one sentence later, just make depots/ supply ships recharge shields, why make things more complicated than it has to be?
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I guess my thoughts are this:
A standard supply, as we have it now, with whatever supply mod it has now, add a reactor and a new gadget titled energyrechargerkanootervalve. The supply does supply as normal, but can additionally tick the energyrechargerkanootervalve and the supply will begin dumping energy off to the target. The energy will come from the supplies batteries itself, but the reactor would help it maintain half speed (at least that would be my line of thought) with moderate energy loss.
Why a ship mod vs a planetary or platform? Well, I could see platforms doing it. I guess I would like to see players more involved. The pres gained would still be supply press (sure, why not).
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The only problem with an energy supply drone, is that if someone is fighting without one of those by their side, they are back to square one on the energy crisis. And supply ships are also destroyed very easily, and personally I wouldn't want to see a new kind of supply ship that was armored like a dread.
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I'm guessing that you joined after .483. 1 word: Ganglia. We've had them before. But that still is not the issue.
The idea that you need a supply ship nearby in order to fight could be used by every faction in every version. Kluth because of armor. UGTO and ICC because of lack of AHR. Sometimes supplies are not able to be in the middle of a fight. Sometimes they are. That doesn't negate their overall usefullness, I would argue. They are one of the most commonly flown ships in the game.
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An ICC ship needs to be able to stand on its own in terms of energy capacity/recharge. How would you like it if you needed a seperate ship just to use the cloak?
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Hop in a Siphon and say that. Recharge the batteries on a drained Claw and tell me what you think of that recharge rate.
I am also merely expanding on an idea that has been pitched before that I still think is a good idea. Not looking to chain anyone with anything. Just proposing ANOTHER THING to go with what else has been tossed about.
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DarkCloudd
Grand Admiral
Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 85
From: Iowa
| Posted: 2009-10-22 07:22
If sheild regen is one of the problems then why not give the ICC supply ships a mining beam like device that transfers power from the SS to the other ship and regens their shields?
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-10-22 18:32
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On 2009-10-21 21:45, Azreal wrote:
Hop in a Siphon and say that. Recharge the batteries on a drained Claw and tell me what you think of that recharge rate. |
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Actually, I started playing this game just as it came out of beta, so believe me I remember all the uber ships with 30 armor rings and cannons which could blow an unmodded cruiser with one volley.
I have also spent a lot of time in kluth ships, so I know all too well of their energy woes, but heres the thing your forgetting, kluth have 3 MASSIVE advantages when it comes to their energy
1: Pound for pound, kluth ships do an extreme amount of damage relative to ICC when comparing energy used versus damage done
2: You have cloaks. Its an (almost) instantaneous get out of combat free card
3: Your jump drive recharges significantly faster than that of any human vessel, if the cloak for some reason doesnt work, the JD does.
Simply put, Kluth energy problems cannont be compared to ICC energy problems because you guys can simply disappear, ICC cannot. When we run out of shields and energy, that's it, game over man! There is no fall back, unless a teammate sees you and can somehow save your butt
Also, Siphons EADs and ADs need to be somewhat excluded from the issues of energy problems, they are one vessels with massive firepower on (relatively) small ships (small in the sense that the damage they can cause is way beyond what a ship that size should be able to do, think of em as an atom bomb, somewhat small size, bigpay load, one punch kills all)
[ This Message was edited by: Light404 on 2009-10-22 18:51 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2009-10-23 03:31
Is the answer to ICC's problems to just give them an UGTO-like dependancy on Supply Ships?
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2009-10-23 03:40
ive been flying ICC for a while
and i think just like the kluth are diff than ugto
icc is again diff than both of those. i realize the handycaps.. and they are many...but i deal with it.
as it stands ICC ships cannot defeat Kluth ships of the same class one on one if the kluth pilot has any degree of skill.. this is just one of the facts ive come to deal with
i counter this by flying in a team... two icc combat dessys can easyly fight off most any threat out there... ok maby not easyly.. but it can be done
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Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
| Posted: 2009-10-23 03:49
Personally i dont want to see ICC ships reliant on an "Energy" supply ship of any kind to make it a viable proposition , as my very first post pointed out ICC player numbers before free to play were low and still are comparitively, and for potential new players being told that they need a suppy with them to resolve energy problems or go play kluth with the fun that entails with cloak etc i can see why they often do choose to play that faction.
ICC ships need to stay in combat for a longer period of time to inflict pres scoring hull damage (comparative to harder hitting weapons of other factions) - unless a nub enemy flies at you from 1700gu etc and lets you utilise range - and this combat pres gain is what the game is about , having fun using piloting skills to gain pres , however as pointed out we cannot use speed to keep in combat due to energy loss , we cannot cloak to avoid fire not do we have emp to inflict system pain on an opponent.
Until ICC ships are either improved shield strength and recharge wise so that they can stay in the combat area longer or weapon dmage is tweaked so our opponents have something to fear I am afriad the other faction are a better choice for new players to gain their valuable combat pres and numbers will stay low.
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