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ICC whats become of it.......? |
Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
|  Posted: 2009-10-23 11:19
I totally Second that entirely
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19:33:51 [ZION]GothThug {C?}: "Zero..you are DS's hero"
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-10-23 11:59
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On 2009-10-22 18:32, Light404 wrote:
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On 2009-10-21 21:45, Azreal wrote:
Hop in a Siphon and say that. Recharge the batteries on a drained Claw and tell me what you think of that recharge rate. |
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Actually, I started playing this game just as it came out of beta, so believe me I remember all the uber ships with 30 armor rings and cannons which could blow an unmodded cruiser with one volley.
I have also spent a lot of time in kluth ships, so I know all too well of their energy woes, but heres the thing your forgetting, kluth have 3 MASSIVE advantages when it comes to their energy
1: Pound for pound, kluth ships do an extreme amount of damage relative to ICC when comparing energy used versus damage done
2: You have cloaks. Its an (almost) instantaneous get out of combat free card
3: Your jump drive recharges significantly faster than that of any human vessel, if the cloak for some reason doesnt work, the JD does.
Simply put, Kluth energy problems cannont be compared to ICC energy problems because you guys can simply disappear, ICC cannot. When we run out of shields and energy, that's it, game over man! There is no fall back, unless a teammate sees you and can somehow save your butt
Also, Siphons EADs and ADs need to be somewhat excluded from the issues of energy problems, they are one vessels with massive firepower on (relatively) small ships (small in the sense that the damage they can cause is way beyond what a ship that size should be able to do, think of em as an atom bomb, somewhat small size, bigpay load, one punch kills all)
[ This Message was edited by: Light404 on 2009-10-22 18:51 ]
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1-Because Kluth fires all their weapons at close range, and makes sure everything hits the target .
2- Without cloaking ,kluth can not go 1 on 1 .Kluth hits for a second and disappears for 3 mins to repair hull&armor. I havent seen any kluth dread who could take out an ead or ad with siphon without cloaking,have you?
3- I dont get your point about amj. Use dictor ships to avoid kluth to jump.
You take one of those options from kluth , you may balance it to icc faction. But you will overpowered ugto for that. So the problem isnt with kluth!period!...Problem is icc shield. I have played icc during last week and i havent ran out of energy ,not even a single time. I engaged kluth wolf fleet with AD and Line station. Everytime i managed to run away (outnumbered everytime). This experience was enough to see what was wrong with icc tho. Even with full energy , sitting in deep space, my shield took more than 5 mins to recharge completely while i was in AD. Kluth and ugto can repair their armor very fast with repair drones and depots. ICC has no that option. Thats why since the begining of the 1.5 I suggested that every repair unit on this game to have shield repair ability. Get hurt , go charge , come back to fight..
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2009-10-23 12:04
I had an idea once, an option to Lower the ships sheilds, yet let the generators running, Making the sheilds charge at a much higher rate, Only then its not protecting the ship at all.When its full, Raise it up again
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19:33:51 [ZION]GothThug {C?}: "Zero..you are DS's hero"
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ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom)
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: March 09, 2002
Posts: 363
From: Earth
| Posted: 2009-10-23 13:07
ICC shields regenerate just fine in my opinion. I just feel that the ICC supply ship should be able to recharge shields also ICC planets, depots and supply plats.
Also I have seen that there are enhancements now that do in fact help to regenerate shields faster.
Having an interdictor in a combat environment is just like combat near a planet except your not getting hit by planet def and the interdictor field moves.
If each faction had an interdictor during a combat situation then I don’t see why players would be so scared to play with them around.
The ICC Missile Dread can be very effective against a k’luth ship just bait the kluth ship with a Combat Dread or a Assault Dread and while the kluth ships engages that one jump in within missile range and fire away. Missiles are what causes the arch bug and any missile impact will hit the rear armor and hull of any ship no matter where they actually hit.
I have had that done to me while I was fighting an AD and the MD almost killed me before I could even see him, I had to cloak and run meanwhile the AD was still hitting me. I was lucky to escape.
Obvioulsy just dont do it alone with a MD, use team work
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Anathemia
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: June 23, 2009
Posts: 38
| Posted: 2009-10-23 13:55
Post removed...
I'm an idiot anyways >.<
[ This Message was edited by: Ian9018 on 2009-10-23 18:55 ]
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Being a troll ftw.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2009-10-23 14:05
Using a missile ship against a K'luth is possibly some the less briliant ideas posed by people.
And by less briliant I mean entirely useless. Cloak beats missiles and fighters harder than beating something incredibly hard repeatedly.
The only thing that works against K'luth is alot of ECCM, and alot of volley damage. You want to crack that armor and down to hull before they even fully uncloak. K'luth have abysmal armor, use it against them.
Shields, ironically, are pretty much the same way. ICC's shields are superior to armor in the only fact that if you don't do heavy, sustained damage, you won't get through them.
But this isn't exactly hard. Energy problems means ICC can't evade for long and keep firing, and the return damage is pretty sad even when it all does hit. Not to mention though, that in order to really maximize shield effectiveness you need to constantly equalize shields (something I wish we had an automatic button for), and you need to constantly maintain distance and dodge.
No other faction has to go through this much trouble to make their defenses work, so its no wonder most newbies grow tired of the faction very quickly.
At the end of the debate the points still stand. For every other factions weakness, they get a solid advantage. UGTO ships get lots of energy, average weapons, and pretty solid defense. They just don't get to do a whole lot of subtle. Kluth get terrible armor and energy but they get speed, cloaking, and high damage weapons.
And what do ICC get? Every ICC's advantage is practically a disadvantage.
You get shields with high regen and defense you can point anywhere you want. Sounds good right? Until you realize that shields take a ton of energy to maintain, can't get the benefit of reloads, and are only one layer.
Beat by armor in every way.
You get low energy, long range, fast moving weapons, but they do mediocre damage and cost ammo. Reasonable right? Well yes, except long range is pointless when you can't hit anything at that range, low damage which becomes mitigated by that low accuracy, and fast moving not nearly fast enough.
And all the low energy cost does is save ICC from more energy problems.
And you wonder why anyone complains, and why people avoid the faction. Facts peoples, know them.
-Ent
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-10-23 19:29
^^+1, enterprise, hope the devs are working on revamping the ICC with your input (no sarcasm here)
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On 2009-10-23 11:59, Pakhos wrote:
You take one of those options from kluth , you may balance it to icc faction. But you will overpowered ugto for that. So the problem isnt with kluth!period!...Problem is icc shield. I have played icc during last week and i havent ran out of energy ,not even a single time. I engaged kluth wolf fleet with AD and Line station. Everytime i managed to run away (outnumbered everytime). This experience was enough to see what was wrong with icc tho. Even with full energy , sitting in deep space, my shield took more than 5 mins to recharge completely while i was in AD. Kluth and ugto can repair their armor very fast with repair drones and depots. ICC has no that option. Thats why since the begining of the 1.5 I suggested that every repair unit on this game to have shield repair ability. Get hurt , go charge , come back to fight..
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I wasn't saying that the problem is with kluth or even with UGTO, was just pointing out that kluth simply have 3 options when their energy and armor runs dry compared to ICC's 0.
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2009-10-23 22:24
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On 2009-10-23 13:07, ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom) wrote:
Also I have seen that there are enhancements now that do in fact help to regenerate shields faster.
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wanna bet that they also make the energy drain faster aswell?
wich makes that particular enhancement pretty useless.
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DarkCloudd
Grand Admiral
Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 85
From: Iowa
| Posted: 2009-10-23 23:38
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On 2009-10-23 03:31, Bardiche wrote:
Is the answer to ICC's problems to just give them an UGTO-like dependancy on Supply Ships?
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Not entirely but, say you and a UTGO ship start duking it out, you both manage to hull each other and run away to lick you wounds. The UTGO ship can repair at a much faster rate and come find you to finish the job before your sheilds have had a chance to recharge, meaning that they have a much higher advantage. If not something on a supply ship then why not a special platform or a depot that recharges your shields while you are orbiting a planet or the platform. yes that doesnt adress the energy usage problem but if you arent draining energy for your shield regen then your energy usage will be better.
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Julian Delphiki
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 19, 2002
Posts: 171
| Posted: 2009-10-23 23:46
A "Shield Battery" platform for icc does seem nice.. Mind you, I dont play ICC, but it would help icc heal their shields at a faster rate. Would need a lot of tweaking to make it so its not OP, and wouldnt help with the energy drain in normal combat(as mentioned in the previous post) but would help regen shields as fast as ugto can rep their armor.
As for a ship to do it, would need an energy-transfer rather than drones.. The shield supply ship would just lose energy while regenerating and stop being able to until they gain more energy again.
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-10-24 01:26
Stop debating whether or not a supply ship should have energy transfer and what would allow ICC shields to recover faster.
There should be NO energy transfer, ICC ships need more reactors and decreased power draw (mainly from shielding, because even with them off an ICC ship cannot go above half speed without huge energy losses), not total dependency on supply ships that are easily destroyed.
Supply drones should simply increase shield regen rates the same way they do with armor, and it should apply to ALL supply drones no matter where they are from. This is because in no way would it be fair that only a planetary or platform based repair center should recharge shields. All that does is anchor you to a position if you want the benefit that kluth and ugto already have anywhere in space.
Also, as for the "shield enhancements" ask any full time ICC player if they would ever sacrifice an advanced armour or weapon multiplexer for one that helps your shields recover fractionally faster and they will tell you straight up "NO".
[ This Message was edited by: Light404 on 2009-10-24 01:29 ]
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The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
| Posted: 2009-10-24 09:10
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On 2009-10-24 01:26, Light404 wrote:
Also, as for the "shield enhancements" ask any full time ICC player if they would ever sacrifice an advanced armour or weapon multiplexer for one that helps your shields recover fractionally faster and they will tell you straight up "NO".
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+1
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2009-10-24 10:08
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On 2009-10-23 23:38, DarkCloudd wrote:
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On 2009-10-23 03:31, Bardiche wrote:
Is the answer to ICC's problems to just give them an UGTO-like dependancy on Supply Ships?
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Not entirely but, say you and a UTGO ship start duking it out, you both manage to hull each other and run away to lick you wounds. The UTGO ship can repair at a much faster rate and come find you to finish the job before your sheilds have had a chance to recharge, meaning that they have a much higher advantage. If not something on a supply ship then why not a special platform or a depot that recharges your shields while you are orbiting a planet or the platform. yes that doesnt adress the energy usage problem but if you arent draining energy for your shield regen then your energy usage will be better.
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What if your shields would regen faster when your weapons aren't being fired and you maintain a velocity below x? Naturally boosting shield regen out of combat sounds far more appealing than having to rely on UGTO strategies to save yourself.
I can't say this much better than Enterprise.
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2009-10-24 12:07
Quote:
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On 2009-10-23 12:04, Zero28 wrote:
I had an idea once, an option to Lower the ships sheilds, yet let the generators running, Making the sheilds charge at a much higher rate, Only then its not protecting the ship at all.When its full, Raise it up again
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I still hold to that idea
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19:33:51 [ZION]GothThug {C?}: "Zero..you are DS's hero"
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linus11vf1j
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 3
| Posted: 2009-10-24 18:34
Question: Why are we focusing on their shields only for ICC, and not their weapons, and their ship designs as well?
I mentioned the weapon arc changing earlier because I know Kluth has a different weapon arc configuration than everyone else. Also their weapon arc design is PERFECT for their faction.
So why is ICC's weapon arcs like UGTO when we know that I'm not going to take my combat dessie and ram anyone anytime soon with my full bow arcs. I use my broadsides and rear arcs more.
Now enemies i've been fighting are pirates and the odd uggie newb that decides to break truce and has ignored our calls 3 times (Kluth don't even know the meaning of sharing so I won't even bother), so there's a variety of weapons around, of which most still hurt more than mine.
-I'd rather dodge p-cannons than eat them.
-I'd rather use that little boost of speed I got and kite or annoy until either they go away, or I have to go away.
-My demand for using those shields is less because of the dodging.
However, I can see that this only works for cruisers and lower.
I will note though our big prob in litte newb ICC world is the lack of offensive ability I can inflict. I'm practically pelting for a few minutes (not a few strikes) and I know I'm hitting, but I know i'm not hurting alot. The railgun in game is a what? "An accelerated projectile weapon" So why isn't it making piercing holes in armor or damage of the equivilant?
So either up the offense of ICC, so the requirement to soak up damage decreases, and the fights get even quicker and more intense (hey just like the real world arms races). Or, I suggest reconfiguring the weapon arcs which I think is easier.
Another reason for why I would prefer weapon arc change over anything else. For me to get all my guns to bear, it has to be my bow to their stern or broadside. which requires me to take an offensive maneuver which my ship is not designed for, and turn my towards them. I eat a bow /broadside/stern full of p-cannon/psi-cannon and fire my gauss/railguns in their face. Out of that 1 action, I take more damage than I just inflicted. So why would they design the weapon arcs in offensive configuration, when the doctrine of ICC is defense? It is contradictory design ...
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