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In light of recent changes.... |
Winters Rapture
Fleet Admiral
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 355
|  Posted: 2010-06-01 04:44
Well, even though I'd hate to say it. Removing the kluth now will do more harm then good, But here's something I would be interested in exploring...
"- Or how about a counter-cloak field mounted on one of your specialist vessels?"
I know there are some med-heavy scout or EW craft on both UGTO and ICC that people NEVER use. I mean seriously, even the new guys know to stay away from them. They are almost the definition of 'useless data'. Putting something on them to the effect said above could have the potential to really change this, for the better.
Personally I have had NO taste for the bug that was made into a feature, It was a bad idea when I first heard about it and now it's dragging everything else back with it. I see no reason it refined or replaced before it causes even more issues. Having a device specifically made to counter the kluth while sounding linear is the most stable solution.
I hope I didn't make anyone feel belittled by what I have written, It was not my intent. This has simply been my observation and what I think would be the best solution for the situation.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-01 04:57
If anything, I have the opinion that we are too powerful in the dreads department, and too weak in the small ships. That is the whole point of my arguement. Anyone twisting that around is doing so on their own, and not reading what I wrote.
Time and again, I see posts that are saying we are too powerful. Well, thats the reason for removing at least two dreads and all stations form us.
The reason Kluth was balanced better before imo is because of the smaller ships. Sure, they packed a hellapunch. But they couldnt take it back. There is the balance in a nutshell. Get a solid alpha or two from an EAD on your dessie, and you are space slag.
I am not whining that we are too weak. I do think that the EW slots should be reworked in light of the new player numbers. They were tweaked to accomodate the lower numbers of players we had before. When 12 UGTO dreads can bring over 15 EW slots to the field, it eliminates the scout roles and breaks balance.
Im not whining to leave our big ships alone and power up our small ships.
Please re-read what I have written. Im asking for a simple reinstatement of the role that KLUTH SHOULD BE PLAYING, not for us to recieve something for nothing.
In all cases, I have offered a tradeoff. Not once have I said we should get A, and leave B alone.
People who want to attack me and call me names are just simply set in their position and unable to read and comprehend. Perhaps its that the idea comes from me specifically. As tho I am some illusionist who is attempting to manipulate the game to better my side.
Well, nothing up the sleeve, nothing in my hat, watch my hands closely.
Much of what I have written has come from over a years worth of evaluation of the game.
This comes from many many conversations with VETERANS, not nubs. I have simply offered an idea. There is and was no need for the hate.
If, as others say, the game is fine as is, then so be it. I happen to strongly disagree, but I wont go flaming you for that opinion. I just dont want to see anymore "nerf the Krill" posts from you. This is a solution to that problem. So if you are only calling for nerf nerf nerf, you have offered nothing to the game.
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2010-06-01 05:12
Nerf Az,
for he is more intelligent than the average player, ergo OP
NERF HIM!
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-06-01 05:29
Given I prefer small ships, anything restoring usefulness to the smaller classes is ok by me. I believe it is very unlikely other ships would be removed to achieve this. Also, it doesn't appear significant increases in damage are on the cards either. I'm only guessing on the kind of things the developer's might see as reasonable changes, but overall you're better off asking what can be tweaked to achieve the result you want - rather than overhauling things.
I hope that it can be tackled through fixing torpedoes, energy problems and increasing their manoeuvrability
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Winters Rapture
Fleet Admiral
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 355
| Posted: 2010-06-01 05:36
Quote:
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On 2010-06-01 05:12, Pope wrote:
Nerf Az,
for he is more intelligent than the average player, ergo OP
NERF HIM!
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Agreed, So it shall be that Azreal shall be nerfed. He will be forever more sentience to ICC, The land of weak shields and massive crying fits. This Sentience is final, and cannot be retracted.
Azreal, May your trip to insanity be quick and painless...
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Time for revenge. . .
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2010-06-01 07:38
Quote:
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On 2010-06-01 05:36, Winters Rapture wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-06-01 05:12, Pope wrote:
Nerf Az,
for he is more intelligent than the average player, ergo OP
NERF HIM!
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Agreed, So it shall be that Azreal shall be nerfed. He will be forever more sentience to ICC, The land of weak shields and massive crying fits. This Sentience is final, and cannot be retracted.
Azreal, May your trip to insanity be quick and painless...
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wana make a bet leave my azreal alone *locks winterrupture and pope in a godlike holding cell no hope of a escape by anymeans nessary*
icc are being real smart latley and not the good kind i might add a icc scout that was a vet tryed to take on my dread today i taught him a lesson.
oh azreal i know what you mean i am simply trying to shoot down as much as these people trying to twist what you say as i can.
i loved it when small kluth ships had good firepower while at same time couldn't take it back it was fun you never knew where and when a ead would put energy and metal into your but.
*edit* yes this isn't my first account i forgot the password for the other one XD.
[ This Message was edited by: jackbob on 2010-06-01 07:40 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-06-01 07:54
Why not give the ICC missiles a special tracking property that will track Kluth even after they cloak? You would still have to target them in order to fire, but at least the Cloaking device would no longer be more effective than Pulse Waves in dealing with incoming missiles.
Also, developers should bring the fighter interface more quickly, or at least give the player the ability to give his fighters basic orders. Returning to base after losing track of one ship, when there are 5 other ships still out there, is kind of odd and makes me think that fighters are little more than reusable missiles with railguns attached to them.
Quote:
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- Or how about a counter-cloak field mounted on one of your specialist vessels?
This counter-cloak field will have a radius of say.... 200gus, and will glow somewhat like the dictor field (but in a diff color hopefully to avoid confusion).
Now, it won't drop the cloak of a Kluth. But it will make them somewhat semi-visible (like a ghost image... something like what Kluths see ourselves when we are cloaked). You won't be able to target the Kluth, but you at least will be able to shoot at him.
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Perhaps allow certain types of ships (such as Command Dreads, they really need a decent niche) to use Wireframe viewing mode. For those who do not remember, Wireframe was in the earliest versions of Darkspace, and was only removed after players realized it could be used to track Kluth ships while they are still cloaked.
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-06-01 07:58 ]
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2010-06-01 08:07
My 2 cents.
At the moment the fleets are like this:
- UGTO are notorious for using mass station fleets.
- ICC are notorious for using cruiser fleets but cannot take a fight versus the might of UGTO for the reason previously stated.
- K'Luth use pure dread firepower and the odd tactical cruiser.
This is what I see with the game at the moment. I take pride in being able to come back from a long break from the game and being able to take a look at how the game has changed since I last came to play.
My opinion on why:
- UGTO use stations because of the rest of the factions fleet composition.
- ICC use cruisers because their bigger ships cannot hold against other race's bigger ships.
- K'luth use dreads because our cruisers and destroyers are quite underpowered and can't stop the UGTO using mass station/dread fleets or ICC using HC and AC fleets.
K'luth have the problem with that their ships below that of a dreadnaught can't do much solo. UGTO fleets nearly always have a dread nearby and so it should be with the effort people have put into ranking up but K'luth should have the ability to hurt a dreadnaught with a cruiser instead of escalation.
Someone said on the first page "I always see K'luth in Krills or dreads" - This is purely because the only ship seemingly worth ANYTHING on the K'luth side thats smaller than a dread would be the scarab for the fact that mines hurt like hell. The scale is one of my favourate ships, but thats only because I cannot fly a dreadnaught on the K'luth side yet. The scale is quite useless in reality because its slow enough to be eaten alive by hostile dreads and doesn't really have the firepower to bite back like it should. By the composition of the ship itself, it should be a mini mandible but why bother going scale if its lacking in damage compared to the scarab and no where near as powerful as ANY luth dread. (yes yes yes, cruisers should not be as powerful as dreads, but luth cruisers should be able to put in a punch)
If the entire K'luth race has to escalate to be in dreads then the rest of the factions have to escalate to counter this. This leads to the UGTO using stations and dread fleets, it is the only way to prevent K'luth from walking all over UGTO in a fleet engagement. TBH even when UGTO have a station fleet and K'luth decide to attack we take down a few stations anyway but it takes the ENTIRE FLEET. Every single last luth ship has to engage the station if we are to salvage any ships from the attack instead of dying out-right. Then you have the constant problem of having to escape ping and beacon attacks.
Ping and beacon attacks are great for human players and can be easily avoided on cruisers for Luth but not dreadnaughts or stations for I have seen grass grow faster than dreadnaughts and stations move. Now add to this that a luth ship has to stay cloaked to stay alive and that if you have little to no energy then its impossible to cloak. Add still to this the ability to have 15 sensor platforms making a dread trying to cloak taking literally 2 minutes. Ontop of the 2 minutes you have the entire UGTO fleet whats left over from the attack ontop of you and in your face with ECCM and beacons. You can't cloak worth anything, and if a luth dreadnaught or station can't cloak then its dead, simple.
ICC have the issue against K'luth that their larger ships don't hold a candle to the K'luth larger ships in close range. Quite rightly too really, if ICC had the ability to overpower K'luth in short range then the game would fail completely. That being said, ICC need to have some sort of change to prevent the need to go down to a pure cruiser fleet. A ICC cruiser fleet is a nice setup, it has range, defence and some firepower but against the UGTO dread/station fleet and K'luth dread fleet it means nothing, not a thing.
It all boils down to a inability for both races to comfortably counter each other with smaller ships which eventually leads to escalation and then stereotypes are made.
If K'luth had decent smaller ships then it might prevent UGTO going dread/station fleet and give ICC some fun in the game instead of constantly being on the defensive.
From what i've seen since I came back and played all 3 races is that ICC are constantly on the defensive and the only real war going on is UGTO rubbing it in ICC faces while being harrassed almost all day by Kluth.
If you were to remove electronic warfare slots from larger ships it would require fleets to come down to (sorry for this ICC) 'ICC level' and use cruiser fleets. Cruisers are not the end of the world, they are fun, they can do damage and they are mobile but fail in comparison to a dread/station fleet. Dreadnaughts and Stations shouldn't have much in the way of electronic warfare capability unless they are tooled towards it (for instance the carrier dread can use sensor fighters, but the carrier dread is a load of crud because of this ability).
The thing that the game truely lacks is that Stations should not be the answer to every question. They should be support and added firepower but not the ability to station rush (I feel dirty for saying that). Many a time we have been having fun with whats left of ICC and suddenly UGTO come back through a gate with (I kid you not) 9 stations.
9?! 9 stations?! The unfortunate thing about it is that there is literally nothing that can stop that. Not even planetary defences, they can slowboat around hte entire game maybe losing a single station to an all out assault by the defending faction but so what? 1 station from a fleet of 9... its ok, he'll just come back in a new station.
In my time on UGTO before I got bored, it was not uncommon to see an entire planet literally surrounded by stations soaking up fire and just droping inf because their size is so big that point defence batteries and anti ship batteries cannot do ANYTHING to stop them and to be honest, nothing else can either.
One last thing, ICC need somthing to counter K'luth because if you haven't noticed ICC use missles and if a K'luth cloaks the missles self destruct instead of heading to the last location of the K'luth ship and then orbiting/self destructing. Meaning a waste of ammo/time on ICC and then theres nothing ICC can do to stop K'luth til the K'luth uncloak again, which will be right behind you.
lol
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silent
(Orriginally started off with a balance issue thread then went onto complain about UGTO, sorry)
[ This Message was edited by: SilentHunter13 on 2010-06-01 08:09 ]
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Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
| Posted: 2010-06-01 08:18
I have to agree with Az and Silenthunter tbh.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-06-01 09:22
Quote:
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On 2010-06-01 07:54, Leopard wrote:
Why not give the ICC missiles a special tracking property that will track Kluth even after they cloak? You would still have to target them in order to fire, but at least the Cloaking device would no longer be more effective than Pulse Waves in dealing with incoming missiles.
Also, developers should bring the fighter interface more quickly, or at least give the player the ability to give his fighters basic orders. Returning to base after losing track of one ship, when there are 5 other ships still out there, is kind of odd and makes me think that fighters are little more than reusable missiles with railguns attached to them.
Quote:
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- Or how about a counter-cloak field mounted on one of your specialist vessels?
This counter-cloak field will have a radius of say.... 200gus, and will glow somewhat like the dictor field (but in a diff color hopefully to avoid confusion).
Now, it won't drop the cloak of a Kluth. But it will make them somewhat semi-visible (like a ghost image... something like what Kluths see ourselves when we are cloaked). You won't be able to target the Kluth, but you at least will be able to shoot at him.
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Perhaps allow certain types of ships (such as Command Dreads, they really need a decent niche) to use Wireframe viewing mode. For those who do not remember, Wireframe was in the earliest versions of Darkspace, and was only removed after players realized it could be used to track Kluth ships while they are still cloaked.
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-06-01 07:58 ]
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First off, it doesn't make sense for a missile to still be able to track a vessel once it cloaks. Unless perhaps it homes in on some kinda remnant emission. But perhaps those missiles can still head to the last known location and explode there. This might not be worth anything against small ships, but it might catch a station or slow moving dread.
The alternative is to add an Ion Tracker Mk 3 missile that can still track a cloaked Kluth ship by way of its exhaust.... But only if it's moving. Should make for interesting tactics and gameplay. Kluth has to go all-stop to break missile lock, but in doing so makes him vulnerable to ping and shoot tactics.
Next... the proposed counter cloak field. Sure, a wireframe view would do. I'd prefer a shadow view though. But as to which ships these thing can be mounted on, I would say ;
Not on scouts. A dico is a big piece of kit which neccesitates a cruiser losing most of its armament. So a scout shouldn't be able to mount one of these devices either. Besides, a fast moving scout revealing everything in its midst will be OP.
Ditto that for a dread. Put one of these in a dread and the spammage will be quite extraordinary. The cruiser hull is still the best bet. Big enough for lore's sake. Survivable enough in terms of armor n hull. And not too fast such that no opponents may evade it. Balanced.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-06-01 09:23 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-01 09:56
I have proposed a form of EMP Depth Charge torp for the humans before. The idea being that it has to be control+click launched and detted to take effect. This would instanta decloak a Luth, allowing him to re cloak immediately or jump away or fight, depending on his circumstances.
Again, the idea was a trade - off. Humans can force a decloak, but the Kluth isnt so extremely vulnerable as to completely negate his cloak all together.
Cooldown would be a long one as well, and I would see this being placed only on the EW cruisers, only one gadget per ship.
Just a toss out idea for general consumption, and admittedly off-topic. However I have seen enough posts in this thread on the issue, so I thought I'd throw it out there.
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2010-06-01 09:59
What should happen is when the K'luth cloak the missles should continue on to the last known location of the vessel then were heading for and then orbit at that point til they run out of fuel. In short it will do the same as if you force aimed in the general direction of luth and fired missles - which when I play ICC is all that I can do to prevent luth incursions.
I say there is no need for a anti cloak ship, even if it is barely used or armoured to balance things out. You already have ECCM and beacons aswell as sensor platsforms and planet sensor bases it isn't like its hard to prevent a luth from cloaking.
What we honestly need is a way to reward people for using such tactics. Give a direct hit on a beacon some sort of pres gain but reduce the amount of beacons there is on a scout/picket for example.
People don't want to go anti sensor scout or beacon scout simply because theres no 'profit in it'. You don't get anything apart from a scout pres thing (if you even get that any more). Why go scout and lose all ability to gain pres and at the same time reveal the entire luth fleet so EVERYONE ELSE can get pres instead? This is what I see when someone asks "someone please get a scout", it's not "Arg, I can't be bothered" it's "Arg, but then I don't get pres in a game that has an absolute ice age between some ranks".
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-06-01 10:59
Quote:
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On 2010-06-01 09:59, SilentHunter13 wrote:
What should happen is when the K'luth cloak the missles should continue on to the last known location of the vessel then were heading for and then orbit at that point til they run out of fuel. In short it will do the same as if you force aimed in the general direction of luth and fired missles - which when I play ICC is all that I can do to prevent luth incursions.
I say there is no need for a anti cloak ship, even if it is barely used or armoured to balance things out. You already have ECCM and beacons aswell as sensor platsforms and planet sensor bases it isn't like its hard to prevent a luth from cloaking.
What we honestly need is a way to reward people for using such tactics. Give a direct hit on a beacon some sort of pres gain but reduce the amount of beacons there is on a scout/picket for example.
People don't want to go anti sensor scout or beacon scout simply because theres no 'profit in it'. You don't get anything apart from a scout pres thing (if you even get that any more). Why go scout and lose all ability to gain pres and at the same time reveal the entire luth fleet so EVERYONE ELSE can get pres instead? This is what I see when someone asks "someone please get a scout", it's not "Arg, I can't be bothered" it's "Arg, but then I don't get pres in a game that has an absolute ice age between some ranks".
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What he said. I like using Sensor Corvettes because they at least have weapons, but I won't touch the Recon Scout.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-06-01 11:19
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Ditto that for a dread. Put one of these in a dread and the spammage will be quite extraordinary. The cruiser hull is still the best bet. Big enough for lore's sake. Survivable enough in terms of armor n hull. And not too fast such that no opponents may evade it. Balanced.
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Nobody is going to spam command dreads.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-06-01 12:17
Seems like people forces their mind to not understand and I blame Azreal for being very optimistic about you guys(you know yourselves).
[ This Message was edited by: Pakhos on 2010-06-01 12:17 ]
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