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In light of recent changes.... |
ssj4megaman
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2003
Posts: 54
From: San Diego
|  Posted: 2010-06-04 14:16
One thing i will say is i use my krill because its the only dread that has good energy and the torps (SI) are not complete AS*....
I remember the days when am torps were feared, they did alot of dmg and could actually hit targets (speed) AM torps right now are the most useless weapon in the game because they will probably cause more FF then any other weapon.
I wont fly any dread with them and you sure as hell wont find me in a cruiser that uses them... Thats a good portion of my firepower thats just useless
Hell i am all for getting rid of the stations and the krill (my favorite ship) and maybe some others, but for that crusier's will need to be buffed a good bit in the firepower department or new cruiser to replace those dreads/stations. Let us take the same dmg, but i want to eat up another ship with my 1 or 2 pass run that i will be able to do before i die.
As for pinging. First thing i noticed after being back a few weeks ago in battle was when 2 picket destroyers one by i think sixkiller but it was someone from CEC was making our entire fleet of about 7 or 8 ships useless. i remember in 1 skirmish going from 100/100 to 4% hull because of the pinging and the converging fire in my krill all because of those stupid little ships, without even getting to fire a single shot.
Kluth will become useless if alot of the enemy is on and they are fielding ships with alot of eccm or beacons, this will completely nullify the main advantage.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-06-04 15:53
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On 2010-06-01 09:56, Azreal wrote:
I have proposed a form of EMP Depth Charge torp for the humans before. The idea being that it has to be control+click launched and detted to take effect. This would instanta decloak a Luth, allowing him to re cloak immediately or jump away or fight, depending on his circumstances.
Again, the idea was a trade - off. Humans can force a decloak, but the Kluth isnt so extremely vulnerable as to completely negate his cloak all together.
Cooldown would be a long one as well, and I would see this being placed only on the EW cruisers, only one gadget per ship.
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i dont think thats a good idea
why ?
because with the raising player-numbers a faction can bring enough cloak-counters to lock luth out of cloak (eg. 1 charge drop luth out of cloak for 5 secs, which isnt enough to target and shoot the luth btw... and have a cooldown of 60sec -> so you need 12 ships to completly disable the cloak)
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-05 05:12
Well, we're outnumbered 90% of the time now, and unable to fight back with ping ping ping. So, I guess until something changes, we're just gonna get steamrolled.
ps. Balance is broken.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-06-05 10:21
in my recent experience ICC is usually outnumbered by kluth, so im not sure where youre getting that
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-=LoKi=-
Marshal
Imperium
Joined: November 10, 2007
Posts: 83
From: Valhala
| Posted: 2010-06-07 06:25
A scout takes out a entire k`luth fleet? WHy don`t a big bad dread kill it wit 1 alfa?
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-06-07 07:18
if the scout isn't dumb as hell, he'll stay out of alpha-range and still reveal (nearly) all luth-ships, avoiding each projectile-weapon, fired at him
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-06-07 16:09
pointjump.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-06-07 18:54
Trying to point jump a scout that's not in an interdictor field is usually an exercise in futility, unless it had just jumped and is recharging or it's in orbit of a planet and facing it. Even if you manage to land in beam range they can just ejump then jump right back to the general area after the few seconds it takes for their JD to recharge. Unless it's almost dead already an ICC or UGTO scout can usually survive even a DN alpha long enough to hit shift+j.
A station alpha will kill a scout unless the pilot has really fast reaction time, but if someone wants to use their station's JD to jump a scout then let them trade the mountain of pres they'd get from shooting at larger ships for 1 kill, a negligible amount of pres, and a very long wait while it recharges. Or just a very long wait if the scout manages to ejump.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-07 19:02
Its not the scout that is the problem.
How many EW slots are on a Command Dread? A Carrier Dread? A Battle Dread? A Battle Cruiser? A Torp Cruiser? Now add those up, and multiply the BD x2 or even 3 at times.
Times when we face large enemy fleets, this is enough to negate the need for beacons or a scout. I used UGTO, but I do believe ICC is about the same.
The EW slots were tweaked to accomodate lower player numbers. Now that we see more human faction players, we need the EW slots reworked on the bigger ships. I wont bother to point out that we are usually outnumbered when any side has decent numbers on. The fact is, with that much EW capability in play WITHOUT the need for a scout, there is a game balance issue that is being severely overlooked.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-06-07 19:07
heres the issue tho, until all factions can have a consistently high numbers, its not going to happen. I said before, when Kluth outnumbers people there cloak is quite powerful and we need every pinger we can get. When we outnumber Kluth, Ping is too powerful and makes cloak laughable. So there needs to be something in the middle.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-07 20:13
Then you are saying that scouts shouldnt be in the game? When you have higher numbers and can eccm spam us, you dont use/need scouts. When you cant cover us in pings with big ships, its not fair/balanced to have to use a scout? How can you want it both ways, and credibly say that it is not an issue that needs to be dealt with?
Are you reading what you are writing? Because you simply just made my point.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-06-07 20:39
Then, as always, we come back down to the question of how do you properly reward players for playing support roles like the beacon scout. It would be a bit rich to ask someone to get in one of those ships and then get almost nothing for their effort.
Imagine if whenever K'luth wanted to fight the other factions, a special non-combat ship was needed that one player would have to get out. However, you'd get no prestige for it. Who would want to play that ship? Who would decide who gets it out? Would you Azreal?
I would say first we need to fix that problem - whether pres is something shared or there is a grouping system, and see what impact it has on gameplay. We're so restricted to ships that either do damage or fix damage, that there is no room for much else.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-06-07 21:20
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On 2010-06-07 20:39, Lonectzn wrote:
Then, as always, we come back down to the question of how do you properly reward players for playing support roles like the beacon scout. It would be a bit rich to ask someone to get in one of those ships and then get almost nothing for their effort.
Imagine if whenever K'luth wanted to fight the other factions, a special non-combat ship was needed that one player would have to get out. However, you'd get no prestige for it. Who would want to play that ship? Who would decide who gets it out? Would you Azreal?
I would say first we need to fix that problem - whether pres is something shared or there is a grouping system, and see what impact it has on gameplay. We're so restricted to ships that either do damage or fix damage, that there is no room for much else.
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This is the mentality of someone who is on his way to become a vet in afew years.... Prestige means nothing at all. Prestige for newbies who want to fly bigger things. A true vet would jump in scout, dictor, supply ship, transport and bomber without caring if he is gonna die or make prestige. A true vet thinks how to win the battle regardless of making prestige.
Anyway back to the topic.
Azreal says exactly the same thing i have been saying many times on other threads. Basicly ECM should counter against ECCM to keep the balance. If ECM cant counter against ECCM , in a short time , with bigger player base this will be a bigger pain in the ass.
[ This Message was edited by: Pakhos on 2010-06-07 21:25 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-06-07 21:43
what if there were 2 running modes to cloak?
in one you can be pinged by eccm but stacked eccm doesnt do anything
in the other you cant be pinged but stacked eccm does affect you.
then theres actual tactics involved, kluth are forced to use an EW boat of some kind on a regular basis, and each tactic can be countered by the other faction.
o wait, no, we cant do stacking because of the ECM/ECCM fort problems... unless you put maxes, but then who gets the advantage?
and we tried ECCM slowly draining energy but that was unfair, mind you mostly because there wasnt a max on it
and we tried pinging but apparently thats unfair too, despite it honestly being the best setup ive seen in this game so far, and kluth seeming to be mighty effective on my end despite all this complaining about it.
basically, if you want a new EW set up, you have to imagine a completely new one, because weve tried EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE with ECCM/ECM/Cloak.
[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-06-07 21:49 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-06-07 21:50 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-06-07 22:10
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On 2010-06-07 21:20, Pakhos wrote:
This is the mentality of someone who is on his way to become a vet in afew years.... Prestige means nothing at all. Prestige for newbies who want to fly bigger things. A true vet would jump in scout, dictor, supply ship, transport and bomber without caring if he is gonna die or make prestige. A true vet thinks how to win the battle regardless of making prestige. |
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He's right, though. Even veteran players opt for the way that gets more prestige, or the least risk of dying. I know I'd fly a Carrier Cruiser and do Carrier Cruiser attacks just for the lols, or field an Interdictor for fleet purposes, but asking a newbie to do it or forcing someone into it isn't exactly rewarding.
For vets to have to choose between what is fun and rewarding, and what is necessary but not necessarily more fun (I know I prefer Beaconing the Luth, or building background support over generic spacebar fests) is also a dilemma, and as long as both are rewarding re: prestige it might encourage people to use good ships more.
You don't know how annoying it is to get a good fleet going with proper EW during bombing runs, etcetera. I hope a grouping system will fix all this - when bombing runs are frequently accompanied by interdictors, and interdictoring becomes muchmore frequent and accepted because of it being rewarding beyond just "make sure your team gets a kill" and the less applied "deny enemy strategical jumps".
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