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This game is a baby eater. |
Panduh
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: June 03, 2007
Posts: 250
|  Posted: 2010-11-17 01:42
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On 2010-11-17 01:12, Nova Team wrote:
paduh get it and only been here what 2 three years how come bombg who been here since 04 dosent get it. newbie in this game are newbie but baby eating no way. i mean yea there going to get killed more often then most but guess what they happen to be a newbie.
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Been here longer, actually. This is an alt. I abandoned the original one and started over, to make a slightly longer story short.
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On 2010-11-17 01:15, furtim wrote:
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As for the newbie area and scenario server, again Bombg's point is that it's hard to get more than two or three people online per faction even in Sag.
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Just to clarify this for others: Sag has a tendency to empty out at times (not entirely, but close enough to seem like it).
The big question that has been posed by all the preceding posts, but not explicitly stated, is:
Is it too hard for a newbie to learn the ropes before becoming too discouraged to actively play the game?
IF SO:
How can we prevent this from happening? What tools can we provide to make it easier for newbies to learn to effectively play the game?
Granted, in answering the third question, there is the manual.
Unfortunately, many people are not willing to (or simply not able to/don't notice at all) peruse through the rather extensive manual on the game, despite its extreme usefulness. People are too accustomed to tutorials and being led by the game to understand the game. Dark Space places players relatively smack-dab in the middle of the game without any form of "newbie protection".
While I won't ask the developers to dedicate time to hard-coding a tutorial level (What happened to the old one anyways? I know it's outdated, but, still curious about it) because I agree with the current priorities, I do think that it'll be largely up to the current players to be very patient with newbies and dedicate themselves to the scenario server at times. That is, assuming anyone actually wants to.
There is the slightly-less-tedious idea of "newbie protection." Unless I'm being stupid and ignorant, I don't think there are any safeguards for newbie's at the moment. You know, like, -50% prestige lost for a death until Captain, or whatever...
Also, what happened to the whole quests thing. I could totally write out a basic series of "quest lines" and such - panel and diagram some quest chains, etc, things that might introduce ideas and certain mechanics to newbies as they followed along, etc, if only to save some future work for the devs.
gah, if only I had a degree in computer sciences. Then I could do real volunteer work around here.
[ This Message was edited by: Panduh on 2010-11-17 01:44 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-11-17 02:02
this is a twitch based game...so there will be learning curve. The same reason newbs aren't that good is the same reason AI sucks like crap. In other nontwitch games AI is formidable because it is basically just calculations, not actual spawning missle/projectile that can actually be dodged.
As such newbies will have a harder time until they can effectively play the twitch system. We can't really make this game newb friendly short of giving op ships like ai or some sort of newbie protection. (both i highly disagree with)
Also, there is a kluth minelayer and it is useful, for the person who said mines were not.
With a twitch system:
you have ships like currently: ships bad in newbs hands, good in skilled hands
you beef up smaller ships: newbies stand a chance, vets in small ships dominate everything
we can't really balance this like other games, for they almost always use a dice roll system
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furtim
Admiral
Joined: June 06, 2005
Posts: 27
| Posted: 2010-11-17 09:54
Well, again, I don't think anyone wants to make small ships "good" as in "able to solo dreads", so much as good meaning "fun to play" and "able to contribute (in ways including but not limited to dealing damage) to a fight". It's already clear that a lot of vet players feel this way about small ships, but new players who feel "stuck" in a scout or frigate surrounded by dreads might not feel the same way. I think it's worth exploring ways to make small ships "feel" better to new players who lack veteran skills and veteran knowledge of small ships' strengths and big ships' weaknesses without necessarily affecting the balance of combat.
This is why, in my post on the topic, I tried to make a point of putting an emphasis on smaller ships filling utility roles that dreads can't, things like minelaying, sensor scouting, bombing, etc. Obviously, all of those things are in-game already, but it's not always obvious to a new player that they're contributing much by doing them. The grouping system already in game helps by allowing players who just fly around big ships playing scout/spotter gain prestige, but, while that does help with progression at low level, prestige alone isn't much of a motivator for everyone -- more importantly, it doesn't necessarily help the newbies learn to fly.
As for minelaying, I stand by my comments there. Mines can certainly be effectively deployed (I actually had some good success using them against Kluth, since the buggers can't escape mines by cloaking), but they have some limitations that make them really difficult to use if you don't already have considerable skill. The most effective way to use them seems to put you right in front of your enemies' biggest guns, although that could just be the way *I* do it. 
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-11-17 17:22
get your factions biggest minelaying ship.
make sure you have ecm if possible.
Go to frequently used enemy gate.
Sit there and stack AS MANY MINES AS THE GAME ALLOWS in one place for a nice and funny moment once an enemy triggers all of them at once 
do this with multiple people for even more funny moments.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-11-17 21:24
The sad thing is that there already is a rank-limited newbie server for them to duke it out, but it's mostly empty because the newbies would rather go out into Sag and get murdered and then QQ about it in the forums.
If they all just stayed there in the first place to learn/level up instead of trying their luck in Sag, they wouldn't be here QQing about babyeating and an empty newb server.
ROFL. The irony of it all......
I think we should put a 'Caveat Emptor' notice upon entering Sag. You have been warned. This is no picnic.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-17 21:25 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-11-17 21:58
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On 2010-11-17 09:54, furtim wrote:
As for minelaying, I stand by my comments there. Mines can certainly be effectively deployed (I actually had some good success using them against Kluth, since the buggers can't escape mines by cloaking), but they have some limitations that make them really difficult to use if you don't already have considerable skill. The most effective way to use them seems to put you right in front of your enemies' biggest guns, although that could just be the way *I* do it.
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No trick to it. Just spam ECMs when laying mines. Lowers the sig enough such that the enemy will not be able to see it.
I'd show you a few more nasty tricks if you were K'luth. Bwahaha.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-11-17 22:16
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On 2010-11-17 21:24, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
The sad thing is that there already is a rank-limited newbie server for them to duke it out, but it's mostly empty because the newbies would rather go out into Sag and get murdered and then QQ about it in the forums.
If they all just stayed there in the first place to learn/level up instead of trying their luck in Sag, they wouldn't be here QQing about babyeating and an empty newb server.
ROFL. The irony of it all......
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-17 21:25 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-11-18 00:40
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On 2010-11-17 21:24, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
The sad thing is that there already is a rank-limited newbie server for them to duke it out, but it's mostly empty because the newbies would rather go out into Sag and get murdered and then QQ about it in the forums.
If they all just stayed there in the first place to learn/level up instead of trying their luck in Sag, they wouldn't be here QQing about babyeating and an empty newb server.
ROFL. The irony of it all......
I think we should put a 'Caveat Emptor' notice upon entering Sag. You have been warned. This is no picnic.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-17 21:25 ]
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Bombg
Admiral
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2010-11-18 02:59
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On 2010-11-16 23:43, Panduh wrote:
Here's some raw data for you guys to nibble on (just so we can start getting some numbers into this):
A day prior to this post I made 500 prestige in a Talon (the K'luth scout with the three psi that goes pew pew) over the course of about 30-40 minutes in Luyten while harassing three dreads and a station or two. Neonblue remembers this, no doubt, haha...
Even taking into account the new prestige nerf thats coming up, that probably goes to about 250 prestige-ish..
For a non blue enh-scout (I had 42% wep reload on mine and just pew pewed at people, no torps), that still probably comes around to about 150-175 prestige in the new patch for a performance similar to mine.
I died three times.
Now, as far as cloak plays into this, it didn't really help much. Speed and well positioned/timed jumps and quick e-jumping play a greater role in Scout versus Dread/Station. In fact, cloak got me killed the first two times (I caught several QSTs the third time).
By myself, I could dink a dread and bring him down to about 81-85% armor in a span of a few minutes, after which, I'd either cloak to annoy him, or wait to get jumped and then e-jump a short distance away, only to come back a few seconds later and repeat the process.
Another PB member was with me in a claw, and he made more than double my prestige there; about 1100.
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I think this data right off the bat is flawed because it's coming from an experienced player and not someone who is just starting the game. You can't really simulate newbie conditions if you're not a newbie yourself. So the only real way to do this would be data collected by the server itself if it kept any records of such things. Or I guess focus groups but who has the money for that.
With that said I think prestige gain (less, or more), would be a non issue if ships in the lower tiers had a use beyond the ultimate goal of ranking you up to dread level. If the vast majority of the player base capable of using a dread or station mainly uses these higher ships then I think it's fairly obvious the lower tier ships are lacking somewhere.
Or there's another perception I'm getting from some people is that newbie ships aren't meant to compete at all with vet ships, and if you want a fun fight go to the newbie areas. The problem is that newbie areas are just plain empty which I'm sure anyone following this thread has read a few times by now. Heck at certain times of the day(and night) even the MV is empty, so I think the notion that it's the newbie's fault they have no one to play with is way off base. Good game design leads players where they need to go in order to have fun in the game. If I were to follow this route I'd start newbies in the rank restricted area of the MV. Even then I'm not convinced this would have the desired result of a populated newbie area.
Beyond that It's very important for players to feel they're going somewhere, and that they have some type of impact in whatever world they're in. The current newbie experience just doesn't offer that right now.
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On 2010-11-17 02:02, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
this is a twitch based game...so there will be learning curve.
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This is a given, but the fact that the more experienced players not only have skill advantage over newbies but also a firepower advantage doesn't help. Most twitch games keep their players more or less even in the firepower department. Keep in mind I'm not saying "give station level firepower to scouts".
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Also, what happened to the whole quests thing. I could totally write out a basic series of "quest lines" and such - panel and diagram some quest chains, etc, things that might introduce ideas and certain mechanics to newbies as they followed along, etc, if only to save some future work for the devs.
gah, if only I had a degree in computer sciences. Then I could do real volunteer work around here.
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I think quests could go a long way towards driving player interest of the game especially in the beginning. Definite good idea there.
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-18 03:14 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-18 04:34 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-11-18 04:39
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On 2010-11-18 02:59, Bombg wrote:
I think this data right off the bat is flawed because it's coming from an experienced player and not someone who is just starting the game. You can't really simulate newbie conditions if you're not a newbie yourself. So the only real way to do this would be from the server itself if it kept any records of such things. Or I guess focus groups but who has the money for that.
With that said I think prestige gain (less, or more), would be a non issue if ships in the lower tiers had a use beyond the ultimate goal of ranking you up to dread level. If the vast majority of the player base capable of using a dread or station mainly uses these higher ships then I think it's fairly obvious the lower tier ships are lacking somewhere.
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Problem is that... as I mentioned earlier.... there are only THAT FEW functions in this game.
Combat, Bomb, Build, Suppie, Transport, Mine,
I'll exclude Dictor, Scout cos they're the more "specialized" functions.
- Combat: Most ships are already geared for combat
- Bombing: We have bomber frigs, dessies, and cruisers. A couple of dreads can do that too.
- Build: Limited to engies, and to a much lesser extent, command stations/dreads.
- Supping: Supp ships rules 'cos they can follow combat ships around. Stations are nothing more than near stationary, but heavily armored, giant supply plats.
- Transport: Stations and Trannies obviously are the most useful here. Trannies are more useful because they have more mobility. Ever tried tranny rushing an enemy ship to cap it using a station??
- Mining: The Extractor is the boss here, while the Command Dread/stations are just wannabes.
So you see.... WHAT "use" are you talking about here?
You said, and I quote "ships in the lower tiers had a use beyond... blah blah blah" .....
And I'm telling you, the smaller ships already can do combat and bombing. In addition to that, they have the better suppie, better tranny, better engie, extractor.
The only thing the bigger ships do better is in combat and perhaps bombing. So your gripe is that the smaller ships cannot do combat as good as the bigger ship.
Guess what pal. They CAN'T. Period. The suppie, engie, extractor, tranny.... those are small ship functions ... USES... that beat the big ships. If small ships were to be just as good as big ships in combat, that what the hell is the point in this game?
Smaller ships do better in the other tasks, while bigger ships do better in combat. I think everything works out in the end.
Now... enough with this and go mine or supp!
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Or there's another perception I'm getting from some people is that newbie ships aren't meant to compete at all with vet ships, and if you want a fun fight go to the newbie areas. The problem is that newbie areas are just plain empty which I'm sure anyone following this thread has read a few times by now. Heck at certain times of the day(and night) even the MV is empty, so I think the notion that it's the newbie's fault they have no one to play with is way off base. Good game design leads players where they need to go in order to have fun in the game. If I were to follow this route I'd start newbies in the rank restricted area of the MV. Even then I'm not convinced this would have the desired result of a populated newbie area.
Beyond that It's very important for players to feel they're going somewhere, and that they have some type of impact in whatever world they're in. The current newbie experience just doesn't offer that right now.
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Already covered that above. If the MV is empty, then you we have nothing to argue about because no one's playing.
The only fix to this would be to introduce a lot of AIs for you noobs to gank and gain pres. But don't expect to get a bonus or handicap in PVP.
What if they suddenly decided to limit Lt Cmds and below to scen and rank limited "learner" servers so they won't get ganked and baby-eaten? ROFL.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-18 04:44 ]
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Bombg
Admiral
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2010-11-18 05:25
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On 2010-11-18 04:39, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Problem is that... as I mentioned earlier.... there are only THAT FEW functions in this game.
Combat, Bomb, Build, Suppie, Transport, Mine,
I'll exclude Dictor, Scout cos they're the more "specialized" functions.
- Combat: Most ships are already geared for combat
- Bombing: We have bomber frigs, dessies, and cruisers. A couple of dreads can do that too.
- Build: Limited to engies, and to a much lesser extent, command stations/dreads.
- Supping: Supp ships rules 'cos they can follow combat ships around. Stations are nothing more than near stationary, but heavily armored, giant supply plats.
- Transport: Stations and Trannies obviously are the most useful here. Trannies are more useful because they have more mobility. Ever tried tranny rushing an enemy ship to cap it using a station??
- Mining: The Extractor is the boss here, while the Command Dread/stations are just wannabes.
So you see.... WHAT "use" are you talking about here?
You said, and I quote "ships in the lower tiers had a use beyond... blah blah blah" .....
And I'm telling you, the smaller ships already can do combat and bombing. In addition to that, they have the better suppie, better tranny, better engie, extractor. |
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I think it's been fairly obvious that I've been focusing on the combat aspect of smaller ships, and even with superiority of these smaller ships in some non combat niches they're still only used a fraction of anyone's played time so that's hardly any consolation. Plus you know... some of them are just plain boring and are more of a means to an end. Perhaps if planet capping played a more important role in the MV then it might be something.
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Guess what pal. They CAN'T. Period. |
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Yeah I know; thus the thread. But I think the two of us have beaten this horse to death already so I'll leave it at that.
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Already covered that above. If the MV is empty, then you we have nothing to argue about because no one's playing.
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My point is that if even the MV is empty from time to time. Which is where the majority of people play. Then it is no surprise that the newbie area is often empty.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-11-18 05:52
And so after going back n forth, we finally arrive at 'how to make small ships better in combat than bigger ships'??
Combat in DS = manuever n shoot. That's it.
Breaking it down further.
Small ships - more speed, more manuverable, weaps fire faster, jd recharges faster
Big ships - more powerful weapons, more durability
Everything works out fine. Looks logical to me, semantic even.
So tell me what else do you want?
Even if we were to introduce new weapons system, the smaller ships would still be less durable b have less powerful weapons.
The only thing that might help is by reintroducing ships similar to the recently nerfed ICC MF.
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Bombg
Admiral
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2010-11-18 06:17
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On 2010-11-18 05:52, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
And so after going back n forth, we finally arrive at 'how to make small ships better in combat than bigger ships'?? |
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Finally? I'm pretty sure we've killed this horse already. We both agree that smaller combat ships are not effective against large. We briefly talked about how to make smaller combat ships more valuable in fleet conflicts without needing to directly increase their firepower.
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Combat in DS = manuever n shoot. That's it.
Breaking it down further.
Small ships - more speed, more manuverable, weaps fire faster, jd recharges faster
Big ships - more powerful weapons, more durability
Everything works out fine. Looks logical to me, semantic even.
So tell me what else do you want?
Even if we were to introduce new weapons system, the smaller ships would still be less durable b have less powerful weapons.
The only thing that might help is by reintroducing ships similar to the recently nerfed ICC MF.
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So wait, now you're saying smaller ships are effective now? Or just that you can get by with them until you get a dread? If you mean the latter then I can agree with you, but I think it requires more patience than what most people have. My point hasn't been that It's impossible to rank up in this game, but that the trip should be just as fun as the destination.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-11-18 06:51
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On 2010-11-18 06:17, Bombg wrote:
So wait, now you're saying smaller ships are effective now? Or just that you can get by with them until you get a dread? If you mean the latter then I can agree with you, but I think it requires more patience than what most people have. My point hasn't been that It's impossible to rank up in this game, but that the trip should be just as fun as the destination.
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Some small ships are more effective than others. IMO, the most effective small combat ships are the ones that are cannon n missile biased. Beams just don't cut it. Torps to a lesser extent.
You know what was fun about the ICC MF? You were able to sit somewhere, ECMs on, undetected, and pelt enemy dreads and stations from afar with impunity. And everytime an enemy dread jumped you, all u needed to do was make a short 2000gu jump away n shoot and shoot at them again. It frustrated the big ship pilots to no end.
That was fun. They couldn't kill a station or dread unless said big ship pilot was dumb enough to ride it out to the end. But the enemy had to pull their own small ship to pursue you.
Unfortunately Devs capitulated to the vet's QQ and nerfed it. I hope to see more cannon n missile biased small ships, seeing as how those guys are the only one that can fight big ships at arm's
length.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-18 06:53 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-11-18 17:33
Your idea is yto give some group bonus. This isn't WoW, thank God. We don't have group bonuses for ANYTHING in the game. Period.
No. New players need to learn to fly. Like me, when I started, I got my face wiped a few times. Then I learned. I read, I studied, I asked. I didn't beg for an Easy button.
ANY nub can ask to group up with other people. Any group member shares the pres. That's all we have, it's more than WE EVER HAD B4, and tbh, it's better than it should be.
Irobically that was done to give reasons for small ships and support ships. You know. Like scouts and dictors and dessies?
What you want is something that isn't and hopefully never will come.
A space WoW called DS.
Have you tried Eve? Sounds RIGHT UP YER ALLEY. You should check it out.
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