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This game is a baby eater. |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2010-11-16 01:33
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On 2010-11-16 00:51, Bombg wrote:
My understanding based on posts from different developers on other games is that it's more productive for the players to address the problem itself instead of focusing on fixes. Since players focusing on fixes can sometimes forget to mention why they want this change, or what problem they're trying to address. Not to mention the threads could easily get sidetracked on unrelated changes people would like.
With that said, one thing that comes up off the top of my head is maybe give one of the lower tier ships a stat bonus to everyone in their group. That way vets will be more inclined to invite newbies into their group (not to say that some people don't do this anyway), and this ships presence can directly contribute to the fleet.
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Well, let's hope that the "stat" in this case is not prestige.
Problem with that (I'm just assuming prestige gain here) is that it contravenes what the Devs are trying to do now, and that is reducing pres gains through combat.
Someone suggested, and I'm a supporter, of making PD less effective, and also to give these smaller ships one or two powerful weapons that are effective against the heavier ships. Maybe torps or heavy missiles. They can do damage, but not enough that a single small ship can take down a large one with ease. But 3 of them working together can do some real damage.
The removal of weaps levelling will help perhaps. I can understand having hull levels... but weaps levelling is the one causing problems. Simply because Dreads have many more instances of that same weapon causing more damage. While a destroyer has less of them, each causing much lesser damage. We should make all weapons equal, with the larger ships being more powerful simply by virtue of having more of them.
But then again, that's up to the devs ain't it? And how they respond to their beloved "vets" QQ'ing their eyes out.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-16 03:12 ]
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2010-11-16 04:39
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On 2010-11-16 01:33, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-11-16 00:51, Bombg wrote:
My understanding based on posts from different developers on other games is that it's more productive for the players to address the problem itself instead of focusing on fixes. Since players focusing on fixes can sometimes forget to mention why they want this change, or what problem they're trying to address. Not to mention the threads could easily get sidetracked on unrelated changes people would like.
With that said, one thing that comes up off the top of my head is maybe give one of the lower tier ships a stat bonus to everyone in their group. That way vets will be more inclined to invite newbies into their group (not to say that some people don't do this anyway), and this ships presence can directly contribute to the fleet.
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Well, let's hope that the "stat" in this case is not prestige.
Problem with that (I'm just assuming prestige gain here) is that it contravenes what the Devs are trying to do now, and that is reducing pres gains through combat.
Someone suggested, and I'm a supporter, of making PD less effective, and also to give these smaller ships one or two powerful weapons that are effective against the heavier ships. Maybe torps or heavy missiles. They can do damage, but not enough that a single small ship can take down a large one with ease. But 3 of them working together can do some real damage.
The removal of weaps levelling will help perhaps. I can understand having hull levels... but weaps levelling is the one causing problems. Simply because Dreads have many more instances of that same weapon causing more damage. While a destroyer has less of them, each causing much lesser damage. We should make all weapons equal, with the larger ships being more powerful simply by virtue of having more of them.
But then again, that's up to the devs ain't it? And how they respond to their beloved "vets" QQ'ing their eyes out.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-16 03:12 ]
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no i think what he ment was as in for example
frigate a 5 percent boost to defence
or frigate a 5 percent boost to damage.
while not much put that in a big battle and your focusing on one target at a time
so a group of 5 dreads and a frigate
if defence it would be the difference between life and death
if attack it would become the total firepower increased via 25 percent *5 percent of each ship)
that makes a heck of a difference as you can take out single ships much faster
i think i got what the guy u replyed to ment.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-11-16 07:14
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On 2010-11-16 04:39, jamesbob wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-11-16 01:33, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-11-16 00:51, Bombg wrote:
My understanding based on posts from different developers on other games is that it's more productive for the players to address the problem itself instead of focusing on fixes. Since players focusing on fixes can sometimes forget to mention why they want this change, or what problem they're trying to address. Not to mention the threads could easily get sidetracked on unrelated changes people would like.
With that said, one thing that comes up off the top of my head is maybe give one of the lower tier ships a stat bonus to everyone in their group. That way vets will be more inclined to invite newbies into their group (not to say that some people don't do this anyway), and this ships presence can directly contribute to the fleet.
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RPG styled attributes boost?
That's for roll based games. Not for a space "shooter" game.
We already have enh for stat boosts.
Well, let's hope that the "stat" in this case is not prestige.
Problem with that (I'm just assuming prestige gain here) is that it contravenes what the Devs are trying to do now, and that is reducing pres gains through combat.
Someone suggested, and I'm a supporter, of making PD less effective, and also to give these smaller ships one or two powerful weapons that are effective against the heavier ships. Maybe torps or heavy missiles. They can do damage, but not enough that a single small ship can take down a large one with ease. But 3 of them working together can do some real damage.
The removal of weaps levelling will help perhaps. I can understand having hull levels... but weaps levelling is the one causing problems. Simply because Dreads have many more instances of that same weapon causing more damage. While a destroyer has less of them, each causing much lesser damage. We should make all weapons equal, with the larger ships being more powerful simply by virtue of having more of them.
But then again, that's up to the devs ain't it? And how they respond to their beloved "vets" QQ'ing their eyes out.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-16 03:12 ]
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no i think what he ment was as in for example
frigate a 5 percent boost to defence
or frigate a 5 percent boost to damage.
while not much put that in a big battle and your focusing on one target at a time
so a group of 5 dreads and a frigate
if defence it would be the difference between life and death
if attack it would become the total firepower increased via 25 percent *5 percent of each ship)
that makes a heck of a difference as you can take out single ships much faster
i think i got what the guy u replyed to ment.
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Malasorte
Fleet Admiral
Joined: October 11, 2010
Posts: 3
| Posted: 2010-11-16 08:06
if u as a newbie go to the manual u find ... rank limited areas section and there it shows the servers and what rank u can go there ... here is a link http://www.darkspace.net/index.htm?module=document.php&doc_id=1&chap_id=951&chap_name=5.3.1
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Derpy
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 12, 2010
Posts: 4
| Posted: 2010-11-16 13:02
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On 2010-11-11 20:32, Bombg wrote:
New players have no chance against the dreads and stations people are flying around these days, and with prestige gain being lowered in the future it's only going to make the problem worse.
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-11 20:46 ]
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I've played this game casually for four days.
I've flown nothing but combat ships.
I'm almost 1RA with five hours of play time and gold combat. Wrong. End of thread.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2010-11-16 13:02 ]
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Bombg
Admiral
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2010-11-16 17:15
Newbie areas are abandoned and boring. Not to mention I think it's a bad idea to try and split the population of a game that's low to begin with.
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On 2010-11-16 13:02, Enterprise wrote:
I'm almost 1RA with five hours of play time and gold combat. Wrong. End of thread.
-Ent
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And you didn't even have to address any of the points I've made throughout the thread, bravo.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-11-16 19:04
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On 2010-11-16 17:15, Bombg wrote:
Newbie areas are abandoned and boring. Not to mention I think it's a bad idea to try and split the population of a game that's low to begin with.
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Most people aren't noobies at Vice Admiral. I would hope you find them VERY boring by this time.
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On 2010-11-16 13:02, Enterprise wrote:
I'm almost 1RA with five hours of play time and gold combat. Wrong. End of thread.
-Ent
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And you didn't even have to address any of the points I've made throughout the thread, bravo.
[/quote]
If you would but make a valid one........maybe then it could be addressed. Enterprise made a fair assessment - as fair as yours- and after only a few days of play.
He disagrees. You dislike. Tough.
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Lrd_Hunter
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2006
Posts: 245
| Posted: 2010-11-16 21:29
well a dev please just lock this threa all bombg doing is just trolling. we tell him that cruiser are good he disagrees and i just really stupid.
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Bombg
Admiral
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2010-11-16 22:32
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On 2010-11-16 19:04, Azreal wrote:
If you would but make a valid one.
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Care to explain what isn't valid? You even said you didn't like weapon leveling.
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On 2010-11-16 21:29, Nova Team wrote:
well a dev please just lock this threa all bombg doing is just trolling. we tell him that cruiser are good he disagrees and i just really stupid.
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They're so good they're not used by most of the people that can use bigger ships, but that doesn't seem to be an issue.
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-16 22:38 ]
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A Gundam
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: July 09, 2010
Posts: 18
| Posted: 2010-11-16 23:02
lol this guy complain about dread... cant even get one yet rofl 
there is a luth cruiser you should look into. its the one with mines. now that is a scairy ship.
[ This Message was edited by: Darth Taco on 2010-11-16 23:03 ]
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Panduh
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: June 03, 2007
Posts: 250
| Posted: 2010-11-16 23:43
In regards to the original topic and subsequent responses, it doesn't seem as though we've really pointed at any particular aspect of the game that would support or disprove the statement that Dark Space makes it unnecessarily hard for newbies to rank up.
Here's some raw data for you guys to nibble on (just so we can start getting some numbers into this):
A day prior to this post I made 500 prestige in a Talon (the K'luth scout with the three psi that goes pew pew) over the course of about 30-40 minutes in Luyten while harassing three dreads and a station or two. Neonblue remembers this, no doubt, haha...
Even taking into account the new prestige nerf thats coming up, that probably goes to about 250 prestige-ish..
For a non blue enh-scout (I had 42% wep reload on mine and just pew pewed at people, no torps), that still probably comes around to about 150-175 prestige in the new patch for a performance similar to mine.
I died three times.
Now, as far as cloak plays into this, it didn't really help much. Speed and well positioned/timed jumps and quick e-jumping play a greater role in Scout versus Dread/Station. In fact, cloak got me killed the first two times (I caught several QSTs the third time).
By myself, I could dink a dread and bring him down to about 81-85% armor in a span of a few minutes, after which, I'd either cloak to annoy him, or wait to get jumped and then e-jump a short distance away, only to come back a few seconds later and repeat the process.
Another PB member was with me in a claw, and he made more than double my prestige there; about 1100.
NOTE: At times, I only let myself fire from a single cannon so that I could continually circle around an enemy ship.
Now, here's my three billion dollars. You see, because, the phrase is "two cents", and instead my thoughts are worth three...screw you guys.
Anyways.
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From what I've found, three key factors that can be used to describe ship balance are SIZE and SPEED and TURN RATE (WARNING: Highly dumbed down).
SIZE tends to reflect ship's preference between damage output over extended periods of time and damage output during short periods of time.
SPEED is how fast a ship travels.
TURN RATE is how fast a ship alters its direction.
***A ship with LARGE SIZE will display a capacity for BURSTS OF DAMAGE.
***A ship with SMALL SIZE will display a capacity for DAMAGE OVER TIME.
***A ship with HIGH SPEED will display a capacity for DAMAGE OVER TIME.
***A ship with LOW SPEED will display a capacity for BURSTS OF DAMAGE.
***A ship with HIGH TURN RATE will display a capacity for DAMAGE OVER TIME.
***A ship with LOW TURN RATE will display a capacity for BURSTS OF DAMAGE.
In short:
***Ships with LARGE SIZE and LOW SPEED and LOW TURN RATE display a capacity for BURSTS OF DAMAGE.
***Ships with SMALL SIZE and HIGH SPEED and HIGH TURN RATE display a capacity for DAMAGE OVER TIME.
***As ship SIZE INCREASES, ships will have greater capacity for BURSTS OF DAMAGE.
***As ship SIZE DECREASES, ships will have greater capacity for DAMAGE OVER TIME.
***THIS IS A GENERAL TREND.
I think a common assumption among players is that from Scout-> Station, the raw damage output of a ship will increase with a fairly gentle gradient, and as such, play style and tactics will change gradually.
***From SCOUT to DESTROYER, damage output tends to increase at a gradual, incremental pace, as such, share their capacity for damage over time.
***From DESTROYER to CRUISER, damage output has a significant jump. Cruisers begin to display some burst damage tendencies. IE: Torpedo Cruiser.
***From CRUISER to DREADNAUGHT, damage output has an even GREATER jump. Dreadnaughts begin to heavily favor bursts of damage.
***From DREADNAUGHT to STATION, damage output increases ever so slightly; the main difference is in health and regeneration. Stations still heavily favor bursts of damage, but due to health and regeneration (includes energy regeneration), they are exceptions in that they can sustain bursts of damage for somewhat prolonged periods of time. Furthermore, Stations can stack fighters and further increase damage output over a period of time. Stations can use different tactics, and as such, Stations are a special case.
Thus:
***Scouts, Frigates, and Destroyers can be considered a "family" of ships, able to utilize similar styles/paces of combat against each other.
***Dreadnaughts and Stations can NOT be considered a "family" of ships, as Stations can continually dish out bursts of damage.
***Cruisers are the middle ground between Scouts/Frigates/Destroyers and Dreadnaughts.
So, the implied (and overarching) ship classes here are:
***SMALL, MEDIUM, LARGE, REALLEH LARGE
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The big point is this: a specific class of ship (in reference to the implied ship classes) has a SPECIFIC PLAY STYLE and is NOT DESIGNED TO COMPETE FAIRLY with any ship that does not belong to its class.
In fact, when combat between ships belonging to SEPARATE CLASSES takes place, a particular ship will ONLY HAVE AN ADVANTAGE when it is in a position relative to the opposing ship where it can EFFECTIVELY UTILIZE ITS SPECIFIC PLAYSTYLE.
JUMPING allows players of any class to bypass the natural strictions of speed and turn rate and INSTANTANEOUSLY put themselves in a position relative to an opposing ship where it can EFFECTIVELY UTILIZE ITS SPECIFIC PLAYSTYLE.
EXAMPLE: DREADNAUGHT POINT JUMPS a DESTROYER to put itself close enough for a BURST OF DAMAGE. ***SPECIFIC PLAYSTYLE
EXAMPLE: CRUISER E-JUMPS away from a STATION and CANCELS JUMP quickly enough to put itself far away enough for DAMAGE OVER TIME. ***SPECIFIC PLAYSTYLE
EXAMPLE: STATION POINT JUMPS a DREADNAUGHT to put itself close enough for a BURST OF DAMAGE. ***SPECIFIC PLAYSTYLE
EXAMPLE: STATION POINT JUMPS a specific distance FROM A CRUISER to STACK FIGHTERS and REGENERATE ***PLAYSTYLE SPECIFIC TO STATION
Now that you people actually have something moderately concrete to work with, lets try and readdress the original post.
I apologize in advance for errors (spelling, grammer, etc) that I have overlooked.
[ This Message was edited by: Panduh on 2010-11-16 23:45 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Panduh on 2010-11-16 23:47 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Panduh on 2010-11-16 23:49 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-11-17 00:33
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On 2010-11-16 23:02, Darth Taco wrote:
lol this guy complain about dread... cant even get one yet rofl
there is a luth cruiser you should look into. its the one with mines. now that is a scairy ship.
[ This Message was edited by: Darth Taco on 2010-11-16 23:03 ]
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lol hulled a station from 100% armor and 100% health to around 60% armor 90% health in about...10 seconds?
on the more serious note, that was a great job panduh!!!
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MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2010-11-17 01:10
its a shame that jumping away from an enemy for range is extremely risky.
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Lrd_Hunter
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2006
Posts: 245
| Posted: 2010-11-17 01:12
paduh get it and only been here what 2 three years how come bombg who been here since 04 dosent get it. newbie in this game are newbie but baby eating no way. i mean yea there going to get killed more often then most but guess what they happen to be a newbie.
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furtim
Admiral
Joined: June 06, 2005
Posts: 27
| Posted: 2010-11-17 01:15
First of all, kudos to Bombg for continuing to post in this thread after all of the extremely rude comments by other players who didn't even try to understand his point before insulting his skills. And saying, "small ships can beat bigger ships if the player is skilled", isn't an answer, because the whole point is that new players, the ones most likely to be in small ships, by definition don't have that kind of skill yet. As for the newbie area and scenario server, again Bombg's point is that it's hard to get more than two or three people online per faction even in Sag. The "newbie-friendly" areas of the game are even more lightly trafficked than that, so there's not a lot of chance for them to pick up real skills through PvP. "Attack other small ships" doesn't help much, either, since anybody who can fly a dread usually already is; so, really, what we need to do is give vets more reason to fly small ships, as well, which will then give the new folks more targets.
There a couple of things that could be done to people something to do with smaller ships without messing up the game balance. The main point is to make sure that each class has some kind of role to fill.
Panduh made a good point about burst damage vs. DoT, that's one thing that could be further emphasised to give a role for small ships. I keep seeing talk of the hulls being reconfigured, so I won't talk about specifics too much. But, in general, it might help small ships out to make it easier for them to do really steady DoT through things like faster recycle rates, wider coverage in firing arcs, etc. And depending on whether you think the ideal role for small ships is supporting the main firing line or picking off stragglers (which is likely to be different for different ships in a class, too), multipliers could be added and tweaked for damage to shields vs. armour vs. hull. So while a Dread could brute force through another Dread's shields, maybe Frigate weapons get a bonus to shield damage, so having a Missile Frigate or something floating around would help the Dread get through his opponent's shields quicker; at the same time, once the shield is down, the MF won't be hurting the enemy Dread much at all. Or maybe vice versa makes more sense. I'm just giving the general idea.
Another area where small ships could be made more useful is in utility tasks. This is already done to an extent, as well, where smaller ships tend to be more specialised. However, the "generalist" big ships tend to be better than the small ones anyway, even at special tasks. (Here, I'm excepting repair, since only Supps can do it.) If the idea is that we want to see fleets of mixed hull sizes, it makes a lot of sense for the big hulls, which we'd like to be rarer, to have to take on multiple roles at once. Small hulls, on the other hand, since in theory you'd have more of them, can specialise and get really, really good at the one thing they do.
There's a good example of what I'd like to see in the ICC's Bomber Destroyer vs. Jump Cruiser. The JC is better outfitted for combat and survivability, but it's not necessarily better at bombing. It has more powerful bombs due to weapon leveling, but it also has fewer launchers, which in many cases can mean fewer bombs actually getting through, all else being equal. This also ties in to the burst vs. DoT philosophy, since the JC does more damage per bomb while the BD drops more bombs in total and drops them more frequently.
Actually, one thing that might get more people in frigs and destroyers would just be to make minelaying actually useful, considering that there aren't, as far as I know (and I can't check right now, since the database is out of date), any cruisers or dreads that can do it. Bonus points for making bigger hulls more vulnerable to mines. Double bonus points for having a ship of frigate or destroyer class that can clear minefields as well. 
Anyway, my point, and Bombg's point as well, is that there are potentially many ways that the game could be changed to make flying small ships more fun both for the new players who are forced to do it and for the vets who might enjoy doing something other than spamming spacebar in a dreadnought all the time. That would help make the game less of a "baby eater". Because, yes, there's always flying Supply Ships, but while some people like that style of play, not everyone does, and the more play styles you accommodate the more people will join.
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