| Author |
Ship Tiers and You |
Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
|  Posted: 2012-12-31 19:58
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However, there are a few points where I see concern.
1. As there is only one tier 3 ship per class, will this ship exemplify the philosophy of the faction to which it belongs? For example, the tier 3 ICC Destroyer seems very much like a typical UGTO or even Kluth layout rather than an ICC design and unless UGTO/Kluth have an equally powerful design at close ranges we may have humorous battles where the UGTO/Kluth Destroyers are the ones trying to keep range. Ditto for any super long range Kluth/UGTO ships. |
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Tier 3 ships will attempt to embody the philosophy of their faction, but they also need to pick Role combinations appropriate for their ship type, and those Roles need to work well together. The Rapid Assault Destroyer is going to be adept at the high-speed dogfights that usually characterize Destroyer vs Destroyer combat, but also good at hitting larger ships. The UGTO T3 Destroyer and the K'luth T3 Destroyer will attempt to do the same thing, but may approach it from different directions.
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| 2. The balance of the tier system in ship classes as discussed above by others. Will the tier 3 ships be the go to ship once you unlocked them? Will there be incentive to use the lower tier ships? If I want heavy duty cannon fire, will I head for the specialized tier 1 or will I still want to rush for the tier 3 ship that has cannons as one of the roles? Balance here is all in the numbers, but it will be hard to strike a balance as tier 3 ships will have inherently more potential firepower, and the synergy between some layouts (the famous cannon/torp/beam layout) can make sure that all of the extra points in these gadgets are put to good use at the same time, overwhelming ships with just one or two of these layouts. Similarly, dissonance between some layouts (ie a carrier/torp/missle layout) may make the ship useless when faced with their tier 1 or 2 counterparts. Again, just some design concerns that can be overcome by careful watching of numbers and resonance/dissonance between roles. (a torp/cannon/beam combo can easily put all of these weapons to use in a close range brawl but a carrier/torp/missile will always have some roles not available for use) |
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You've basically summarized my job. 
And yeah, a Carrier/Torp/Missile ship would have a hard time putting both torps and missiles to use at once. A Carrier/Missile/EWar ship would be a better combo if you want something supremely good at long-range combat: use the EWar to hide while hitting from max range, but you'd be rather squishy due to missing some armor, especially if someone got in close where you couldn't use the missiles. Maybe Cannons instead of Missiles, they're reasonably long-ranged, don't come with an armor penalty and are still usable at close-range. Yeah, Carrier/Cannons/EWar sounds like a good fit.
Hmm? What's that I have behind my back here? Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. It certainly isn't a Tier 3 Dreadnought, why, the very idea! Whatever would posess you to say such a thing?. No, it isn't named the M-421C/L-S Strike Carrier, either. Don't be silly!
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-01-01 02:22
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On 2012-12-31 19:58, Jim Starluck wrote:
Hmm? What's that I have behind my back here? Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. It certainly isn't a Tier 3 Dreadnought, why, the very idea! Whatever would posess you to say such a thing?. No, it isn't named the M-421C/L-S Strike Carrier, either. Don't be silly!
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Tsk tsk tsk.... Teaser...
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2013-01-01 10:34
[quote]
On 2012-12-31 19:58, Jim Starluck wrote:
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Hmm? What's that I have behind my back here? Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. It certainly isn't a Tier 3 Dreadnought, why, the very idea! Whatever would posess you to say such a thing?. No, it isn't named the M-421C/L-S Strike Carrier, either. Don't be silly!
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Your about as subtle as a sledgehammar there jim.
You mentiened something about new weapons could we get some info about that?
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
| Posted: 2013-01-01 15:09
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On 2013-01-01 10:34, Soulless. wrote:
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On 2012-12-31 19:58, Jim Starluck wrote:
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Hmm? What's that I have behind my back here? Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. It certainly isn't a Tier 3 Dreadnought, why, the very idea! Whatever would posess you to say such a thing?. No, it isn't named the M-421C/L-S Strike Carrier, either. Don't be silly!
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Your about as subtle as a sledgehammar there jim.
You mentiened something about new weapons could we get some info about that?
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From earlier in the thread:
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2. Will there be any new weapons introduced to fit into this tier system?
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Why, how perceptive of you! Yes, in fact, there will be a number of new weapons introduced, and several existing ones will be heavily altered to work with the new layouts. The biggest changes will be in the departments of Core Weapons and Point-Defense Beams.
Core Weapons are getting split into two sub-categories: Core Cannons and Core Torpedoes.
- Core Cannons will include the ICC Ion Cannon, the K'Luth Stellar Incinerator, and a new weapon for the UGTO, the Heavy Mass Driver. These weapons will be found on large ships with a Cannon role, like the Battle Dreadnought or Combat Dreadnought. Their characteristics will be the most like the existing Core Weapons, with similar range, damage and projectile velocity.
- Core Torpedoes will include the UGTO Quantum Singularity Torpedo and two new weapons, the ICC Variance Torpedo and the K'Luth Neutronium Torpedo. These will be found on ships with a Torpedo role, like the Assault Dreadnought or the Mandible. They'll be more like overly-large torpedoes: not as much range as Core Cannons and slower velocity, but significantly higher damage.
Point-Defense Beams, on the other hand, are getting split from conventional anti-ship beams. They will be the only ones capable of targeting missiles, fighters and mines. All ships will have a few of them for basic PD purposes, with larger ships having one or two more. Ships with the Escort role--like the Picket Destroyer--will have extra PD Beams.
Each faction will have two such beams: an anti-fighter beam and an anti-missile beam.
- Anti-fighter beams will be long-ranged, so they can hit fighters breaking off from attack runs, but they pay for it with a very long cooldown. They won't be very good against missiles. While each faction will have their own version, the UGTO Extended Range CL will be the best of this set, with a slightly longer range and shorter cooldown than the others.
- Anti-missile beams will be short-range but rapid-fire, so they can shoot down as many missiles as possible. This will make it difficult to get into range of fighters with them, however, so they won't be as good at intercepting those. While each faction will have their own, the ICC Pulse Beam will be the best, again with a slightly longer range and a slightly shorter cooldown.
Missiles will also be getting re-worked to fit with the new PD Beams, to ensure they don't dominate too heavily. Each ship Type (i.e. Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers) will have two missiles available to it: Skirmish missiles and Strike missiles.
- Skirmish missiles will be longer-ranged and lower-damage, but will also have comparatively low energy use, making them easier to use at speed and under stealth.
- Strike missiles will be higher-damaged and shorter-ranged, with a much higher charge rate. They'll be able to inflict massive damage quickly, but it will be practically impossible to keep up that rate-of-fire forever.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-01-01 15:36
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On 2012-12-31 19:58, Jim Starluck wrote:
Yeah, Carrier/Cannons/EWar sounds like a good fit.
Hmm? What's that I have behind my back here? Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. It certainly isn't a Tier 3 Dreadnought, why, the very idea! Whatever would posess you to say such a thing?. No, it isn't named the M-421C/L-S Strike Carrier, either. Don't be silly!
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So basically it's an oversized Guppy?
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2013-01-01 16:25
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On 2013-01-01 15:36, Talien wrote:
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On 2012-12-31 19:58, Jim Starluck wrote:
Yeah, Carrier/Cannons/EWar sounds like a good fit.
Hmm? What's that I have behind my back here? Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. It certainly isn't a Tier 3 Dreadnought, why, the very idea! Whatever would posess you to say such a thing?. No, it isn't named the M-421C/L-S Strike Carrier, either. Don't be silly!
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So basically it's an oversized Guppy?
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Proly would resemble prelayout-rework UGTO Carrier dread (Cannons, 3 EWAR, 6 Fighters) except on steroids.
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2013-01-01 20:39
Personally, my only objections are that with the current player count, getting to CM will be a ton of grinding/take a long time, and
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On 2012-12-28 10:58, Talien wrote:
That's actually kinda disappointing. From the way you put it earlier about lower tier ships being more specialized it made it sound like they'd have more weapons of one type, and higher tier ships would be more diverse in their loadouts but not be able to do one single role as well as a more specialized lower tier ship. But if what you just posted here is accurate and not just something you pulled out of a hat as an example, the higher tier ships can do what a lower tier ship can do, only better, plus with another role added in.
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[ This Message was edited by: Mylith on 2013-01-01 20:41 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-01-01 21:16
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On 2013-01-01 20:39, Mylith wrote:
Personally, my only objections are that with the current player count, getting to CM will be a ton of grinding/take a long time, and
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On 2012-12-28 10:58, Talien wrote:
That's actually kinda disappointing. From the way you put it earlier about lower tier ships being more specialized it made it sound like they'd have more weapons of one type, and higher tier ships would be more diverse in their loadouts but not be able to do one single role as well as a more specialized lower tier ship. But if what you just posted here is accurate and not just something you pulled out of a hat as an example, the higher tier ships can do what a lower tier ship can do, only better, plus with another role added in.
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[ This Message was edited by: Mylith on 2013-01-01 20:41 ]
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I dunno. I see it as a motivation to play on just to reach the top of the food chain.
For tons of pres, go to Procyon!
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Admiral Valeor Tackle
Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2012
Posts: 106
| Posted: 2013-01-02 06:57
Wait. I think there is a minor mistake. The Tier 1 UGTO Destroyer which is a gunboat destroyer has torpedoes. I think it should be the picket destroyer instead of gunboat destroyer
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-01-02 09:55
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| On 2012-12-31 12:33, Jim Starluck wrote:
I'm currently re-factoring ship designs with adjusted point values, so I'll see if I can work a Scanner into Carriers. Missile ships won't need it, though; they're meant to target larger ships rather than smaller ones.
The tractor beam is actually there because I had a few points left over, but not enough to spend on another missile. Again, currently re-working my designs, so it may get dropped.
The Missile Dread's one ECM alone won't be able to hide it, but Dreads are not intended to operate alone. That one ECM may make it easier for another EWar ship nearby to help hide the MD. |
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Then drop the tractor beam (and even ECM) and grant missle ship a scanner. Frankly, missle ship isn't meant to target only large ship from distance although it's best to do so. With scanner, we can kill more ships and hence MD worths keeping in garrage.
Nevertheless, can't hide a dread with ECM. F2 reveals the rings. I had experience with this: I had been bombing in 5gu/s profobics and they jumped close to me because they tracked the bombs and saw the rings. And unless supply ship has 3 ECM, I don't know whoever spends time covering MD with ECM. Side by side with the MD usually AD or SS, not scout.
Dreads were not intended to operate alone but this game needs more active players. It's a sad fact.
And please, 2 ECM (or more) is the default for minelayer, not 1 ECCM. Minelayer needs ECM to hide the mines so it needs more ECCM to couter enemy's ECCM.
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| On 2012-12-24 01:54, Jim Starluck wrote:
- Minelayer
-- These guys play dirty! And by dirty I mean they leave a mess everywhere! Who's going to clean up all those thermonuclear mines, young man? I have half a mind to send you to your room without any dinner!
-- Talent: These guys get a Scanner and a few extra limited-arc point-defense beams to help clear enemy mines, but they lose an Armor plate in the bargin. |
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Cleaning up all those mines is escort task, not minelayer. We pick mine out to lay mine, not to destroy mine, right? It's enemy who needs to clear the battlefied has to send an escort.
Minelayer does not need scanner either because it's obviously a very close range ship. So I believe 2 ewar gadgets are both ECCM is a natural design.
Btw
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| On 2012-12-24 01:54, Jim Starluck wrote:
- Beams
-- Watch out there, Billy! These ships have an awful lot of lasers on them! Better put on some suntan lotion, or you'll be getting a nasty burn! In fact, it's probably better to stay away from these fellas in the first place. They don't exactly have a long range, after all.
-- Talent: These ships get an extra armor plate up front, so they live long enough to get in close! |
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I don't see anything words mentioning about the prohibit of ewar gadget on beam ship in this announcement!
Now back to EAD:
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| On 2012-12-31 12:33, Jim Starluck wrote:
The EAD has the Scanner because its third role is Escort, meaning it has heavy PD. It needs the Scanner to detect and target missiles and fighters. It can't get any ECCM because it has a Beam role, which prohibits any EWar other than Scanners. |
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| On 2012-12-24 01:54, Jim Starluck wrote:
- Escort
-- These fellas are a Missile or Carrier ship's bad day. They carry lots of little lasers that aren't very good at hurting other ships, but sure are dang good at shooting down missiles and fighters!
-- Talent: These fellas get a Scanner and one extra E-War gadget to help find their targets!
- E-War
-- Remember, Billy, you can't hit what you can't target! And you can't target what's being hidden by ECM arrays! Don't forget to pack your ECCM in case you run into these guys!
-- Talent: Scouts that have this role get to use a Beacon, but Tier 2 and 3 ships aren't so happy, because they can't combine this Role with Beams! |
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You confused between escort role and e-war role on EAD and other beam ships, Jim.
Since beam role doesn't anihilate e-war gadget, thus EAD has one scanner and one e-war gadget because its 3rd role is escort... too dangerous! Giving EAD scanner then it will see everything and point jump everything. It's a nightmare! A sole ECCM is enough for EAD which doesn't need to see far.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-01-02 10:58
Less but not least, I have some ... dreaming models here. It's holiday season after all, I'd love to make a wish list.
- ICC tier 2 carrier/cannon destroyer
Destroyer is not allowed to have any e-war gadget, this ship does not care. With heavy railgun, fighter and 25gu speed, this ship kills you from distance. It's a deadly sniper.
- ICC tier 3 missle/mine/ewar cruiser
Turn off inactive shield and reward your ship some negative signature, this cruiser hides within ECM and launch missle with pleasure. If anyone wants to jump close to it, beware of the minefield surrounds it. It can turn on shield and jump away and leave you dumb face. Fully exploit ICC advantage to climax!
- ICC tier 1 torpedo dread
Once again, the legend revives! This ship is ICC hero who shines in torpedo splash! IT'S TIME TO QUIT CRYING FOR YOUR FACTION dear ICC loyalty.
- K'Luth tier 2 missle/cannon dread
It's Ganglia, with Plasma as default. A lovely powerful medium range ship for K'Luth.
- K'Luth tier 1 bomber cruiser
Since it's a bomber (+1 scanner and 1 PD/e-war) and a cruiser (+1 ewar), Clavate makes bombing a favorite task with 1 scanner, 2 ECCM and 5-6 TK-bomb.
Tier 2 clavate for extra beam or ECCM? Bomber does not need beam since 1.6 when planetary deffense structure no longer launches missles. Clavate does not need 4 ECCM as it focuses on quick bombing. And TK bomb instead of Bio because ICC planetary shield is annoying. Have I mentioned about Bio low numer of ammunition yet?
- K'Luth tier 3 torpedo/ewar/cannons destroyer
Yep it has scary, not only because it throws antimatter torpedo and HPSI at you, it also disappears lightning fast as if it has never been behind you.
- UGTO tier 3 command/carrier/cannons dread
That's it! The ship which brings UGTO on pair with ICC and K'Luth at capturing planet. You have scanner and fighter to bomb from far away and thanks of build drone you can get supply. Comfortable enough? Not yet because of starport? You have cannon to drive those stupid transport away while stay out of dico, and even if you enter dico, you can escape it easily since WH is always with you. What more can you ask?
- UGTO tier 1 beam destroyer
Flux wave, flux cannon and reflective armor, go hunting Luth or face to face utility ICC ship. You have the speed and defense, go chasing and make them cry.
- UGTO tier 2 carrier/torpedo cruiser
Albative armor, 30gu splash damage, fighter... UGTO spirit is here: fight violently and ready to fight in any case.
These are really awesome ships that I hope they will be in game to greeting inactive veteran back.
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
| Posted: 2013-01-02 11:58
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On 2013-01-02 10:58, chlorophyll wrote:
Less but not least, I have some ... dreaming models here. It's holiday season after all, I'd love to make a wish list.
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Alright, I see what you have. One first note: I see you have some ideas for T3 ships and I'd like to remind you that there's only going to be one T3 ship per class for each of the factions.
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- ICC tier 2 carrier/cannon destroyer
Destroyer is not allowed to have any e-war gadget, this ship does not care. With heavy railgun, fighter and 25gu speed, this ship kills you from distance. It's a deadly sniper.
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Generally, carrier roles will be saved for cruiser and up, and ICC already has a good ranged T2 destroyer in the Commando Destroyer(Missile/Bomb)
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ICC tier 3 missle/mine/ewar cruiser
Turn off inactive shield and reward your ship some negative signature, this cruiser hides within ECM and launch missle with pleasure. If anyone wants to jump close to it, beware of the minefield surrounds it. It can turn on shield and jump away and leave you dumb face. Fully exploit ICC advantage to climax!
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ICC already has a T3 Cruiser in the newest iteration of the Strike Cruiser(Missile/Beam/Gun)
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ICC tier 1 torpedo dread
Once again, the legend revives! This ship is ICC hero who shines in torpedo splash! IT'S TIME TO QUIT CRYING FOR YOUR FACTION dear ICC loyalty.
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You get your wish with this one.
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K'Luth tier 2 missle/cannon dread
It's Ganglia, with Plasma as default. A lovely powerful medium range ship for K'Luth.
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We don't have too many K'luth layouts done yet, and I don't think we have any of their Dread layouts yet, but this is a strong contender for a T2 slot.
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K'Luth tier 1 bomber cruiser
Since it's a bomber (+1 scanner and 1 PD/e-war) and a cruiser (+1 ewar), Clavate makes bombing a favorite task with 1 scanner, 2 ECCM and 5-6 TK-bomb.
Tier 2 clavate for extra beam or ECCM? Bomber does not need beam since 1.6 when planetary deffense structure no longer launches missles. Clavate does not need 4 ECCM as it focuses on quick bombing. And TK bomb instead of Bio because ICC planetary shield is annoying. Have I mentioned about Bio low numer of ammunition yet?
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Clavate is Tier 2(Bomb/EWAR), not sure yet if we'll give Luth a T1 bomber, but we may.
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K'Luth tier 3 torpedo/ewar/cannons destroyer
Yep it has scary, not only because it throws antimatter torpedo and HPSI at you, it also disappears lightning fast as if it has never been behind you.
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This is a reasonably strong contender for this position.
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UGTO tier 3 command/carrier/cannons dread
That's it! The ship which brings UGTO on pair with ICC and K'Luth at capturing planet. You have scanner and fighter to bomb from far away and thanks of build drone you can get supply. Comfortable enough? Not yet because of starport? You have cannon to drive those stupid transport away while stay out of dico, and even if you enter dico, you can escape it easily since WH is always with you. What more can you ask?
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The EAD is the T3 Dread for the UGTO fleet(Beam/Torpedo/Escort)
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UGTO tier 1 beam destroyer
Flux wave, flux cannon and reflective armor, go hunting Luth or face to face utility ICC ship. You have the speed and defense, go chasing and make them cry.
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UGTO tier 2 carrier/torpedo cruiser
Albative armor, 30gu splash damage, fighter... UGTO spirit is here: fight violently and ready to fight in any case.
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Hmm, I can't find any UGTO Cruiser designs, so there's room for this idea, but UGTO already has like 2 carrier Dreads and I'm not sure we'd need a Cruiser setup. ICC already has a tradition of using Carrier Cruisers, so I see this as more an ICC idea.
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These are really awesome ships that I hope they will be in game to greeting inactive veteran back.
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There are some good ideas in there and some we've already thought of ourselves! 
[ This Message was edited by: Walrus of Apathy on 2013-01-02 12:02 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-01-02 16:00
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| On 2013-01-02 11:58, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
Alright, I see what you have. One first note: I see you have some ideas for T3 ships and I'd like to remind you that there's only going to be one T3 ship per class for each of the factions. |
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Oh, that's interesting! Hopefully the T3 should be the ship which represents the phylosophy of the faction. I hope we have the alternative designs for T3 beside assualt orientation.
How many T1 and T2 ships are allowed per class?
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| On 2013-01-02 11:58, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
Generally, carrier roles will be saved for cruiser and up, and ICC already has a good ranged T2 destroyer in the Commando Destroyer(Missile/Bomb) |
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I just know that.
Then maybe a T2 carrier/cannon cruiser then? It'll be a dynamic cruiser. It could replace the border or carrier one.
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| On 2013-01-02 11:58, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
ICC already has a T3 Cruiser in the newest iteration of the Strike Cruiser (Missile/Beam/Gun) |
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Missle, Beam & Gun sounds like a perfect combination as it covers all range. Perfect, indeed.
Then T2 missle/mine cruiser? I do want to know how people will deal against this combo. Since ICC has many cruisers, we have rooms for creative thinking.
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| On 2013-01-02 11:58, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
You get your wish with this one. |
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Pretty nice!
When I joined the game, ICC veteran recalled this ship is the best anti-station-tool. It was the one and only dread that punished careless station. They said old MD was actually the TD, the missle gadgets just replaced where the torpedo gadgets had been. 20+ torpedoes was cruel. But it's too sexy to be denied.
Looking forward to see this vampire fly again in the metaverse.
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| On 2013-01-02 11:58, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
We don't have too many K'luth layouts done yet, and I don't think we have any of their Dread layouts yet, but this is a strong contender for a T2 slot. |
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It's just our Ganglia with plasma default gun. Plasma has higher DPS than PSI. The cannon on Ganglia supposes to fight at medium range so I guess 100gu different is not important. IMHO, current Ganglia is a nice model, just a bit adjust to fit the tier.
I bet Mandible will be T1 beam dread with lots of ELF & AD and 3 aux gen. Pure Luth tactics.
Brood will be T2 with command/carrier... not change much I guess. I just hope Jim give whatsoever ship has build drone at least an aft mining beam.
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| On 2013-01-02 11:58, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
Clavate is Tier 2(Bomb/EWAR), not sure yet if we'll give Luth a T1 bomber, but we may. |
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TK and BIO ammunication is less than human's bomb, that's why I wish it is pure T1 to have more bombs gadget to compensate. Clavate can cloak so 2 ECCM as the current we have in game is fine for it.
Maybe you want to assign Mine/Ewar to Scarab? Scarab drops mine, cloak and cover them with 4 ECCM and then the innocent grey enters the mine field... Boom!
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| On 2013-01-02 11:58, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
The EAD is the T3 Dread for the UGTO fleet(Beam/Torpedo/Escort) |
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Hm... I guess Command Dread of all class shall be T2 with carrier/command role since build & support battle is its main purpose.
Please don't give us another ICC Command Carrier and UGTO Command Dread like we're having now. The vast difference between power of 2 models have created massive hatredness.
Btw, players who love constructing tend to have the same needs to me... It's a big gift for who enjoys engineer if advance engineer has 3 build drones. I love building, but I admit waiting is damn boring. Please bring 3 build drones back.
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| On 2013-01-02 11:58, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
I can't find any UGTO Cruiser designs, so there's room for this idea, but UGTO already has like 2 carrier Dreads and I'm not sure we'd need a Cruiser setup. ICC already has a tradition of using Carrier Cruisers, so I see this as more an ICC idea. |
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UGTO has 2 carrier dreads, that's a clear repeatation. The current Carrier Dread is fine but Agincourt is a bit useless. I think, in the meantime, Agin is the first dread people toy with before they get carrier. I gues Battle is T1 cannon, carrier is T2 carrier/cannon. Maybe Agin is a T2 with torp/mine?
T2 Carrier/torp fits the current missle UGTO cruiser. You know, ATM both ICC and UGTO has missle cruiser, they're like one ship in different colours. Besides, there is no UGTO carrier cruiser so carrier/torp is not a bad idea.
It's ICC that causes headache since they have 8 cruiser models to design and avoid repeatation.
This time, can we vote for our favorite layout? Say, you, Jim and other staff, especial Fattierob, Kenny, Lithium have more layouts than available ships and hestitate to choose which one to keep. Please open a thread for us to vote.
My appreciation to all palestar team. 1.7 is truly a gift for us in 2013.
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
| Posted: 2013-01-02 18:26
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How many T1 and T2 ships are allowed per class?
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We're going for 5-6 per class per tier, except for T3's which get one.
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Then maybe a T2 carrier/cannon cruiser then? It could replace the border or carrier one.
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A carrier/cannon sounds like a good role mix to make a new version of the Carrier Cruiser. As for the Border Cruiser, I have a Cannon/EWAR layout made for it but Jim's the master here and it's up to him if he wants to use it.
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Then T2 missle/mine cruiser?
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Interesting concept, but with the AC, HC, The BC if Jim goes for it, and the Carrier Cruiser you want, plus an as of yet unrevealed layout(Mwahahaha) we're kinda getting filled up on T2 ICC Cruisers.
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They said old MD was actually the TD, the missle gadgets just replaced where the torpedo gadgets had been.
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Hey, I remember those. Horribly broken at the time but this version is balanced to be an Anti-station platform in a similar way.
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It's just our Ganglia with plasma default gun. Plasma has higher DPS than PSI.
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It doesn't really matter what cannon it's given because you can still just swap PSIs for Plasmas and vice versa if you want. That feature isn't going away.
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Please bring 3 build drones back.
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Engineer ships and Supply Ships have tiers just like combat ships, and yes, the Tier 3 Engi's will have 3 Build Drones, and 3 Utility Beams.
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UGTO has 2 carrier dreads, that's a clear repeatation.
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I just looked, and as of now the UGTO have 3 Dreads with a Carrier role: a T1 version; a T2 Cannon/Carrier which is the "Carrier Dread" as you know it now, and the Agincourt, which is an unorthodox design in that it's T2 but it's roles are described as "Carrier/Carrier." So it's still technically single-role, but it has twice as many fighters as everything else.
Fighters are getting a buff too btw, so having fighters won't be so bad.
TL;DR: The Agincourt is still the undisputed master of the Carrier role in DS.
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This time, can we vote for our favorite layout? Say, you, Jim and other staff, especial Fattierob, Kenny, Lithium have more layouts than available ships and hestitate to choose which one to keep. Please open a thread for us to vote.
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We'll see.
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My appreciation to all palestar team. 1.7 is truly a gift for us in 2013.
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We love you too.
[ This Message was edited by: Walrus of Apathy on 2013-01-02 18:28 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2013-01-03 00:59
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On 2013-01-02 09:55, chlorophyll wrote:
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| On 2012-12-31 12:33, Jim Starluck wrote:
I'm currently re-factoring ship designs with adjusted point values, so I'll see if I can work a Scanner into Carriers. Missile ships won't need it, though; they're meant to target larger ships rather than smaller ones.
The tractor beam is actually there because I had a few points left over, but not enough to spend on another missile. Again, currently re-working my designs, so it may get dropped.
The Missile Dread's one ECM alone won't be able to hide it, but Dreads are not intended to operate alone. That one ECM may make it easier for another EWar ship nearby to help hide the MD. |
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Then drop the tractor beam (and even ECM) and grant missle ship a scanner. Frankly, missle ship isn't meant to target only large ship from distance although it's best to do so. With scanner, we can kill more ships and hence MD worths keeping in garrage. |
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No.
When it comes down to it, the Tier system is a method of designing ship layouts that revolves around rules. Rules that say all Dreadnoughts get an EWar gadget, or that only specific Roles grant a ship access to Scanners. Those rules are all worthless if I toss them out the window to placate a single player about a single ship's layout.
And yes, when the tier system is introduced missile ships will be meant to target only large ships. I'm going to be adjusting missile balance to narrow down what targets they're effective against.
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| Nevertheless, can't hide a dread with ECM. F2 reveals the rings. I had experience with this: I had been bombing in 5gu/s profobics and they jumped close to me because they tracked the bombs and saw the rings. And unless supply ship has 3 ECM, I don't know whoever spends time covering MD with ECM. Side by side with the MD usually AD or SS, not scout.
Dreads were not intended to operate alone but this game needs more active players. It's a sad fact. |
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Then we may need to examine changing how EWar works. Perhaps the rings should be only visible to friendlies or something.
This does not change the fact that as a Dreadnought, the MD gets an EWar module automatically. I can change it to ECCM if it truly bothers you, as that can also be applicable to a missile ship's job--don't want the target vanishing on you, after all--but it won't be losing it entirely.
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| And please, 2 ECM (or more) is the default for minelayer, not 1 ECCM. Minelayer needs ECM to hide the mines so it needs more ECCM to couter enemy's ECCM.
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| On 2012-12-24 01:54, Jim Starluck wrote:
- Minelayer
-- These guys play dirty! And by dirty I mean they leave a mess everywhere! Who's going to clean up all those thermonuclear mines, young man? I have half a mind to send you to your room without any dinner!
-- Talent: These guys get a Scanner and a few extra limited-arc point-defense beams to help clear enemy mines, but they lose an Armor plate in the bargin. |
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Cleaning up all those mines is escort task, not minelayer. We pick mine out to lay mine, not to destroy mine, right? It's enemy who needs to clear the battlefied has to send an escort.
Minelayer does not need scanner either because it's obviously a very close range ship. So I believe 2 ewar gadgets are both ECCM is a natural design. |
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This is a fair enough point. I'll examine whether or not Minelayers can be tweaked to stop pulling double-duty.
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Btw
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| On 2012-12-24 01:54, Jim Starluck wrote:
- Beams
-- Watch out there, Billy! These ships have an awful lot of lasers on them! Better put on some suntan lotion, or you'll be getting a nasty burn! In fact, it's probably better to stay away from these fellas in the first place. They don't exactly have a long range, after all.
-- Talent: These ships get an extra armor plate up front, so they live long enough to get in close! |
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I don't see anything words mentioning about the prohibit of ewar gadget on beam ship in this announcement! |
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Ahaha! Aha! Ha. Ha.
You're funny.
You think I posted the actual, official ship design document on the public forum? That was a quick summary I threw together in about an hour because Jack had gotten a lot of questions about the Tier system already, and he figured the Dev Blog was as good a place to address them as any.
There is an official Darkspace Ship Design Manual which lays out everything in much more precise detail than anything mentioned in this thread so far. If, and I stress if, I get clearance from Faustus, I may make it publicly available once all the kinks have been ironed out of it.
But I can at least give you a snippet of it here:
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| - Beams
-- Beam ships are optimized for engaging ships of equal level.
-- Talent: +1 Fore armor, no EWar gadgets, cannot be combined with EWar role
-- K’luth Faction Talent: -1 Reactor, ELF Beams allowed |
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And there is, in fact, a good reason for this.
Beam ships need extra armor to survive to get into range, so they get a bonus Fore armor. However, that armor plate uses up points that would have otherwise been devoted to weaponry. If we left it here, Beam ships would have fewer weapons than any other Role, and thus would be less effective even though they could survive to get into beam range.
So they lose their EWar gadgets instead. This frees up points to be used on additional weapons. Depending on the size of the ship, this may be enough to almost entirely offset the cost of the armor plate, so the ship can compete on an even footing. When you combine Beams with a role that would normally add an EWar gadget or two, this also means you don't have to cram that gadget in there alongside both weapon systems, so the Beam/Whatever ship has greater firepower in both roles.
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Now back to EAD:
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| On 2012-12-31 12:33, Jim Starluck wrote:
The EAD has the Scanner because its third role is Escort, meaning it has heavy PD. It needs the Scanner to detect and target missiles and fighters. It can't get any ECCM because it has a Beam role, which prohibits any EWar other than Scanners. |
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| On 2012-12-24 01:54, Jim Starluck wrote:
- Escort
-- These fellas are a Missile or Carrier ship's bad day. They carry lots of little lasers that aren't very good at hurting other ships, but sure are dang good at shooting down missiles and fighters!
-- Talent: These fellas get a Scanner and one extra E-War gadget to help find their targets!
- E-War
-- Remember, Billy, you can't hit what you can't target! And you can't target what's being hidden by ECM arrays! Don't forget to pack your ECCM in case you run into these guys!
-- Talent: Scouts that have this role get to use a Beacon, but Tier 2 and 3 ships aren't so happy, because they can't combine this Role with Beams! |
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You confused between escort role and e-war role on EAD and other beam ships, Jim.
Since beam role doesn't anihilate e-war gadget, thus EAD has one scanner and one e-war gadget because its 3rd role is escort... too dangerous! Giving EAD scanner then it will see everything and point jump everything. It's a nightmare! A sole ECCM is enough for EAD which doesn't need to see far.
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As I've already explained, the Beam role does prohibit all EWar gadgets. If it didn't have Beams, the EAD would get two EWar gadgets: one from being a Dreadnought and the other from its Escort role. They'd probably be ECCM, because an Assault ship doesn't want to hide--it wants to get in close and inflict damage as quickly as possible, and ECCM helps make sure it can see its targets.
Because it's a Beam ship, however, it loses those two EWar gadgets and instead fills the space vacated by them with more lasers--in fact, they free up enough room to cram in two Heavy Lasers and a Flux Beam. It retains the Scanner, however, as those do not count as proper EWar gadgets and are thus exempt from the prohibition the Beam role imposes.
I also think you're vastly overestimating how much giving an EAD a Scanner would help it point-jump. If the target ship is not currently in combat and is just sitting there stationary, it [/i]might[/i] have a low enough signature that you would need a Scanner to detect it, but that's a pretty low value. On the other hand, a ship stationary like that probably doesn't know the EAD is about to jump it, so odds are good that the EAD is jumping from a position outside normal sensor range, or 5,000 gu--at which distance a Scanner would be useless anyway, because for some time now 5,000 gu has been the hard cutoff at which you can no longer see past. It used to be that a Scanner would let you see further out, but that was changed at some point to make processing updates to the player easier on the server.
If, on the other hand, the target ship is in combat, it will either be moving around at high speed or firing its weapons, if not both. Both activities generate a lot of signature, so you wouldn't need a Scanner to detect them anyway.
Finally, point-jumping in general is going to become more difficult. Dreadnoughts are going to have their turning rates lowered and their jumpdrive cooldowns increased to make them less maneuverable in battle, so knowing when and where to bring them in is more important. An EAD will need to be less hasty to use his jumpdrive to drop onto a single ship, because doing so means he'll be stuck there for a few minutes--long enough for, oh, say, a Missile Dread that had been hiding under ECM to take advantage of his position.
I'll be honest here, chlorophyll: you're trying my patience a bit arguing about two specific layouts like this. I wrote this entire design system in a cave, with a box of scraps, so please don't act like you know it better than I do. I'm willing to listen to constructive criticism and I've already made some sweeping changes based on feedback in this thread, but there are some things that are the way they are for specific reasons.
Now, let's take a look at this next post of yours, shall we?
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On 2013-01-02 10:58, chlorophyll wrote:
Less but not least, I have some ... dreaming models here. It's holiday season after all, I'd love to make a wish list. |
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Oooh, this should be fun. Because I'm a nice guy, I'll play a game with you. If you can correctly guess the layout of a ship that I've already designed, I'll post it here in the thread.
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| - ICC tier 2 carrier/cannon destroyer
Destroyer is not allowed to have any e-war gadget, this ship does not care. With heavy railgun, fighter and 25gu speed, this ship kills you from distance. It's a deadly sniper.
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Mmm... nope. Not quite. At the moment, Carrier role is restricted to Cruisers, Dreads and Stations--smaller ships are just too tiny to pack in many hangar bays. I may relax this rule in the future if I deem fighters effective enough that a very small number of them can be usuable, but we'll have to see how well the upcoming balance changes treat them. I'd also probably want unique models for any new Carriers, so we'd have to get Kenny involved since that's his department.
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| - ICC tier 3 missle/mine/ewar cruiser
Turn off inactive shield and reward your ship some negative signature, this cruiser hides within ECM and launch missle with pleasure. If anyone wants to jump close to it, beware of the minefield surrounds it. It can turn on shield and jump away and leave you dumb face. Fully exploit ICC advantage to climax!
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An interesting concept, but again, no joy. The ICC Tier 3 cruiser has already been posted: the ]b]M-239A/L-M Strike Cruiser[/b], with Beams, Cannons and Missiles. If it proves ineffective during testing I might change Beams to something else, but Minelayer probably won't be it.
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| - ICC tier 1 torpedo dread
Once again, the legend revives! This ship is ICC hero who shines in torpedo splash! IT'S TIME TO QUIT CRYING FOR YOUR FACTION dear ICC loyalty.
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DING DING DING! We have a winner!
M-306T Torpedo Dreadnought
An older dreadnought design, the 306 was once considered the best weapon the ICC had for killing UGTO Dreadnoughts at close range, but during the Third Stellar War it was consistently outperformed by the very ships it was intended to fight. Largely replaced by the new M-410A Assault Dreads, many 306s were mothballed or converted into M-307M Missile Dreads between the end of the Third Stellar War and the start of the Fourth. When the K'Luth entered the conflict, however, they got a new lease on life. The ICC had spent a decade developing a doctrine that revolved around engaging the enemy from a distance but was now faced with a foe who could attack them anywhere and anytime with total surprise. As Missile Dreads died in staggering numbers, the old Torpedo Dreads were dusted off, given a quick once-over and sent to the front lines, where their powerful torpedo batteries could smash weaker K'Luth armor quickly. Some Missile Dreads have even been converted back into Torpedo Dreads, to help fill the ranks of close-range warships.
Layout:
- 1x Tachyon Drive
- 4x IE Drive
- 5x Composite Armor (1x Fore, 1x Port, 1x Starboard, 1x Aft, 1 Full)
- 4x Active Shields (1x Fore, 1x Port, 1x Starboard, 1x Aft)
- 1x Pulse Shield
- 2x Full-arc Point-defense Beam
- 2x Tri-arc Point-defense Beam (2x Fore/Port/Stbd)
- 2x Tri-arc Variance Torpedo (1x Fore/Port/Aft, 1x Fore/Stbd/Aft)
- 2x Dual-arc Variance Torpedo (1x Fore/Port, 1x Fore/Stbd)
- 3x Tri-arc Fusion Torpedo (1x Fore/Port/Stbd, 1x Fore/Port/Aft, 1x Fore/Stbd/Aft)
- 10x Dual-arc Fusion Torpedo (3x Fore/Port, 3x Fore/Stbd, 2x Aft/Port, 2x Aft/Stbd)
- 1x ECCM
- 3x Auxiliary Fusion Generator (1x Fore, 1x Port, 1x Stbd)
Let's just say you weren't the only one who remembers torpedo MDs. 
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| - K'Luth tier 2 missle/cannon dread
It's Ganglia, with Plasma as default. A lovely powerful medium range ship for K'Luth.
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Sadly, I've not designed any K'Luth Dreadnoughts yet. This one has a high probability of getting in, however, as it's hard to miss how effective the combo has been for K'Luth. Expect its missiles to be not quite as powerful, though.
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| [*]K'Luth tier 1 bomber cruiser
Since it's a bomber (+1 scanner and 1 PD/e-war) and a cruiser (+1 ewar), Clavate makes bombing a favorite task with 1 scanner, 2 ECCM and 5-6 TK-bomb.
Tier 2 clavate for extra beam or ECCM? Bomber does not need beam since 1.6 when planetary deffense structure no longer launches missles. Clavate does not need 4 ECCM as it focuses on quick bombing. And TK bomb instead of Bio because ICC planetary shield is annoying. Have I mentioned about Bio low numer of ammunition yet?[/list] |
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Another ship that may get in, but has not been designed yet. As Walrus said, the Clavate is currently written as Bomber/EWar, but that doesn't mean K'Luth can't also have a T1 Bomber Cruiser as well. When a faction's natural strengths play towards a certain role, they tend to have more ships using that role at various tiers. It's why ICC has more missile ships, why UGTO has more Carrier ships, and why K'Luth are liable to have more Beam ships. They may also get more Bombers, and if I can get them working again, more Minelayers as well.
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| - K'Luth tier 3 torpedo/ewar/cannons destroyer
Yep it has scary, not only because it throws antimatter torpedo and HPSI at you, it also disappears lightning fast as if it has never been behind you.
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I'm afraid this one has not been written, and it may not ever be, because Destroyers as a group don't use EWar--they just pack in more weapons instead. I might relax this rule for K'Luth and K'Luth alone, but I've not decided for certain yet.
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| - UGTO tier 3 command/carrier/cannons dread
That's it! The ship which brings UGTO on pair with ICC and K'Luth at capturing planet. You have scanner and fighter to bomb from far away and thanks of build drone you can get supply. Comfortable enough? Not yet because of starport? You have cannon to drive those stupid transport away while stay out of dico, and even if you enter dico, you can escape it easily since WH is always with you. What more can you ask?
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It does sound right up UGTO's alley, though I'd probably give it Torpedoes instead of Cannons--those are more ICC's specialty--but unfortunately the UGTO Tier 3 Dread position is already filled by the EAD. We might at some point add more Tier 3 ships in the distant future, so you may yet see something like this, but probably not soon. It might also not be a Command ship; I'm trying to give all factions two Command Dreadnoughts at Tier 2, each combined with a different role. Since you got close to one of them, I'll give you just a little taste:
ST-119 Citadel Dreadnought
While Confederate admirals usually lead from the rear lines of battle alongside their heavy missile ships, the Trade Navy has a long and proud tradition of leading from the front lines. This has caused problems in the past, however: during the First Battle of Luyten not a single flag officer survived due to their command ships being the target of multiple ICC missile dreadnoughts. While the ST-116 has been retained for those traditionalists who prefer to do things the old-fashioned way, many more discerning admirals are beginning to prefer a mid-range ship that is not quite as exposed to attack. The ST-119 lacks the 116’s raw firepower, but its battery of heavy particle cannons is nothing to sneer at either.
The standard Command Dread is Command/Torpedo, by the way. And since we're talking about them, all Command ships and all Stations will be seeing one important change in the future: they'll all have both a Jumpdrive and a Wormhole Drive--you won't have to pick between the two anymore. This should make Command ships much more valuable from a strategic mobility perspective.
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| - UGTO tier 1 beam destroyer
Flux wave, flux cannon and reflective armor, go hunting Luth or face to face utility ICC ship. You have the speed and defense, go chasing and make them cry.
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And we have another winner! Johnny, show him what he's won!
ST-20 Lance Destroyer
Layout:
- 1x Tachyon Drive
- 2x IE Drive
- 10x Standard Armor (3x Fore, 2x Port, 2x Starboard, 2x Aft, 1x Full)
- 1x Flux Wave
- 2x Full-arc PD Beam
- 2x Dual-arc Flux Beam (1x Fore/Port, 1x Fore/Stbd)
- 6x Dual-arc Chemical Laser (3x Fore/Port, 3x Fore/Stbd)
- 1x Auxiliary Power Generator
Not very fancy, but it gets the job done and it's got a lot of armor for such a little ship. And yes, I know it's missing a fluff description; I'll write one at some point.
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| - UGTO tier 2 carrier/torpedo cruiser
Albative armor, 30gu splash damage, fighter... UGTO spirit is here: fight violently and ready to fight in any case.
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This is another layout that has not yet been written, but may yet be. I've been contemplating giving UGTO a Carrier Cruiser for awhile now, though I wasn't completely sure about the second Role for it. I was originally thinking Carrier/EWar, but a torpedo-armed Carrier also sounds like UGTO's style--more up-in-your-face than either of the ICC Carrier Cruisers.
Also, to expand a bit on Walrus' post:
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| A carrier/cannon sounds like a good role mix to make a new version of the Carrier Cruiser. As for the Border Cruiser, I have a Cannon/EWAR layout made for it but Jim's the master here and it's up to him if he wants to use it. |
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Whatever layout eventually gets used for the Border Cruiser--be it yours or one I come up with myself--it'll definitely be Cannon/EWar. That was what I envisioned it as even when I wrote the existing layout.
The ICC Carrier Cruisers I'm less certain of. At the moment the Guppy is written up as Carrier/Escort, so it's packing extra PD and will in theory be good at countering enemy Carriers on their own terms... but I could just as easily make it Carrier/Cannons to better replicate its existing layout. The M-270 hasn't been written up yet, but will either be Carrier/EWar, or it'll take up the Carrier/Escort position if I change the Guppy.
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I just looked, and as of now the UGTO have 3 Dreads with a Carrier role: a T1 version; a T2 Cannon/Carrier which is the "Carrier Dread" as you know it now, and the Agincourt, which is an unorthodox design in that it's T2 but it's roles are described as "Carrier/Carrier." So it's still technically single-role, but it has twice as many fighters as everything else.
Fighters are getting a buff too btw, so having fighters won't be so bad.
TL;DR: The Agincourt is still the undisputed master of the Carrier role in DS. |
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Technically speaking, the Agincourt is a Carrier/Escort Dreadnought, so it has improved point-defenses, an extra EWar and a Scanner...
...but otherwise, yes. Yes, it is.
ST-112 Agincourt Supercarrier
The pivotal role that ST-111 Carrier Dreadnoughts played in the Second Battle of Barnard's Star prompted the ICC to deploy a series of lighter "escort" carriers based on cruiser hulls. These smaller, cheaper ships couldn't stand in the line of battle like the heavier UGTO carriers, but were still able to field enough fighter squadrons to effectively screen Confederate capital ships against fighter attack. In order to counter this tactic the Trade Navy has developed the newest, biggest carriers in the sector. Described as "supercarriers" by many military analysts, they dispense with any offensive armament to double the hangar capacity of the ST-41 and carry extensive point-defense arrays to protect them from any counterattack. The new ships operate safely behind UGTO lines, sending their massive fighter wings forward to overwhelm the smaller squadrons that Confederate carriers can field.
Layout:
- 1x Tachyon Drive
- 4x IE Drive
- 8x Standard Armor (2x Fore, 2x Port, 2x Stbd, 2x Aft)
- 12x Fighter Bay
- 1x Flux Wave
- 2x Full-arc Point-defense Beam
- 4x Tri-arc Point-defense Beam (2x Fore/Port/Stbd, 1x Fore/Port/Aft, 1x Fore/Stbd/Aft)
- 1x Scanner
- 2x ECCM
- 2x Auxiliary Reactor
Basically, the Agincourt is the Nimitz-class of the Darkspace universe.
Oh, and by the way? That game where you guess a ship tier, type, faction and role combo and I'll give you the layout if there is one? That's good for everyone, for the rest of the thread.
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2013-01-03 01:07 ]
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If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger space battleship and try again.
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