| Author |
New Sagittarian Layout draft |
Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
|  Posted: 2010-06-17 16:54
Make solar generators useful in at least the "home" systems. Useful generally means over +150 power each when in direct light.
I'm going to assume you mean we shouldn't add code to guarantee their effectiveness in a home system, as that would be sorta silly. And I'd have to look at their code to see how their power level is determined (ie, what the falloff rate is), but I assume this means I just need to have a couple suns in the home systems.
It would certainly bolster the defenses there, or potentially allow more buildings per planet (as energy is intentionally a key limiter). I'll consider it. It will be something we'll have to watch and evaluate if we do implement it though.
I'm fine with paths between jumpgates going near planets or through clusters, but it's annoying when the paths go through stars like in Eri, or through obstacles like Luyten.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean, in that you say planets are fine but obstacles are not, but in my mental venn diagram, planets are fully within the obstacles group.
I'm of two minds about this. It is obnoxious to have to do a double jump to get through a system when you just want to pass through. And for those people spawning and heading for another server, having to dodge planets or get dictored is spoiling the fun. But part of the reason for adding intermediate systems between home systems is to create a battle line type effect and force people to have to work for their advancement -- having a straight line approach to anywhere, just requiring two jumps (ie, spawn to jumpgate, jumpgate to jumpgate, arrival) undermines that entirely. If that's the case, I might as well just link the home systems and then have little battlegrounds you can cruise off to on the side.
I'm leaning towards putting them near clusters or at least have planets/clusters in the path.. maybe so you can fly 1000gu manually tangential to the planets, and then have a straight jump to the next gate (assuming dictors), but not be able to freely transfer between any systems without any work. But that's just a lean, and I'm open to further debate.
What about adding a system in there somewhere that has no jump gates to it and say...5-10 planets spread out?
Doable, but.. I'm not quite sure of the point. Just an emergency fall-back position?
maybe a system in the middle of the inner ring?
What purpose would it serve that isn't served by the other three systems?
If you're going to put AI in the Procyon and Rogens transfer systems, then you should probably put some sort of AI in the Ursa transfer system just to even it out. :/
True: if I'm aiming for fairness and equal approaches for each faction, that probably would help. I can put in some more pirates over there.
From what i was told cin was old UGTO system linking to lacerta, not R33
True, that was the original design, but I'm told that R33 is more closely associated with UGTO, so I figured I may as well make that their home base. Per tradition, it has to be in there somewhere for UGTO, and I also can't (per tradition) edit it much, so I thought it fit best as the home system. Cincinnati doesn't have any restrictions on it, so I don't have a problem molding it to fit whatever role we need for it.
Yeah definitely need those no gate systems like we used to have a long time ago since those were very fun.
I can theoretically do this, but I don't want to add more systems than there already are, and I suspect players don't want all the systems unlinked. So probably not very likely.
Also need to put a couple of those "secret" planets in the middle of no where back =P
The way the server works, this is more difficult to do now, plus I have guidance to not do that anymore. Sorry - I liked them too.
if luyten is going to be the icc subsytem can it get a few more planets?
Yes, as I said in the original post (twice, actually), Luyten and Kaus have had planets added.
@NoBoDx and the two rings plus a jewel idea
Not a bad idea (though I notice nobody has taken up the offer of using paint to propose new ideas). But we've tried the funnel effect in the past and has eventually been voted boring and overly repetitive. The theory on this map is that you can fight over a few different systems in the middle, or even try the back door and fight back there if you want. If you want to provide a layout and more reasoning on why it's better, I can consider it.
Alternately, I can redesign one of the other constellations (Lacerta, Andro, etc) into that layout and give it a try in there. If it proves more interesting, I can always redo Sag again.
I would hope you can keep Cin and R33 the same as they are now, ... espcially cin so if you are to leave one system unchanged, that would be the one
Bad news for you...
I actually cut a couple planets in Cin in order to bring it more in line with the other center linking systems in terms of planet density and size - it was bigger than any other system and had as many planets as the home systems, so I had to trim it a bit.
R33 is still the same layout but I shrunk the overall system size slightly, as it was about 40% larger than the other home systems (but I only shrunk it about 20%).
2 terrans per a "home" system is a good idea
I don't have the file up, but I think I only have one -- but I try to have an Arid, Ocean and Ice in each system as well. I can discuss this with other dev team members and players and see if I can get a sense of a good planet type distribution. I'm pretty flexible here.
Its a little unfair that the luth get a binary star system, but the humans get jack.
Honestly the systems have never had a lot of time spent on them to try to make them identical. Back in the day (when most were originally designed) the MV had 30 systems in it all strung out, so it was pretty easy to overlook one systems' design, because the eight in your backyard balanced out well enough. So there's definitely no intent to short the humans.
Plus, frankly, I just don't think its that huge of an imbalance.
BD needs a lot of work, all the planets need to be in clusters,
I tweaked it a bit, but I can do so a bit more - I was moving the other maps more into clusters (luyten, for example) so it seems reasonable to do so on all the maps.
would love to give the editor a try myself and see if I can use it in the first place.
The map editor now is the Resourcer, the general editor of everything developmental, and it's not at all like (or as easy to use as) the old map editor. System design is basically a large spreadsheet with a row asking for Name, Type, Size, Art skin, x coord, y coord, and minerals. So "designing" the systems requires something more than the Resourcer; its just used for putting the above data points into a format the game can load. Also, its restricted.
Preferably, the systems BETWEEN the factions, would be unowned by AI
That's the intent. My theory is having the outer rings pretty NPC AI busy, the home systems having some AI defense forces, and then the center systems more or less left alone. However, Faustus likes AI, so there may end up being some factional AI in the center too.
Additionally, with Kaus between UGTO/K'Luth, ICC have a very difficult time getting over there, while the K'Luth have a tough time getting to the Pirates in Luyten.
First off, Pirates are now in the tan-bordered "new" system at the bottom, not in Luyten (well, so I prefer; see previous). And you're right, certain factions have a harder time getting to various AI. One solution could be the last paragraph in the original post: There have been suggestions to link the rim systems to the center systems (ie, kaus to cin). That way you can still get there, it just takes a couple jumps.
I think the rest of your paragraph becomes a nonissue once the fact that Luyten will be pirate-free is taken into account.
The only input I have is: don't make the gates shipyards
They won't be -- that's a bug. And while we have been discussing changing the map around anyway, part of the reason it is being done now is to try to correct that bug.
I say put 1 system right in the middle and connect cinn, luyt and the new one to it. This system is murder to capture alsmost a natural fortress but thats also the one thing that makes it a high priority target.
Nicea? (note: see next answer)
make the new systems the Ross 148, 248, and 348 systems. i also suggest Van Maannen for the central new system.
I'm not sure off hand, but we don't have all the old maps, so we may not have them. I think we probably have a Ross, but I think Van Maan was a map-editor made system, of which we lost a few and which aren't able to be imported into/edited by the Resourcer. So basically we only have maps that are eight years old or which have been created/recreated in the last year or two.
This rules out Nicea, by the way. (Though if someone made a spreadsheet of a layout, it is reproduceable, per an earlier answer)
Sorry for the huge wall of text.
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2010-06-17 17:28
i dont like that system layout. i rather just have 1 semi big system in sag that we all fight over.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-06-17 18:08
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On 2010-06-16 15:27, Shigernafy wrote:
BD (the old BD, not the current) ...
Unfortunately I'm not sure which BD you mean, as the MV has changed a fair few times and I don't know how many iterations BD has been through. But we also don't necessarily have copies of them all... you'll have to be a bit more specific.
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I love the old BD with loakmay, rhalago and awaid close together. 3 planets like that really help ICC. The current luyten with 5 planets close by also good for ICC. I think it's the best to get planet 1500-2000gu close for ICC, so that they can spam missiles while orbit planet.
It should be helpful if there is a small barren near a terran in every cluster so that people can rep their ships quickly.
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On 2010-06-16 15:27, Shigernafy wrote:
In BD, ... 2 suns would be best.
Do you mean a binary star, or a second star as the anchor to a cluster? (Instead of a gas giant, for example)
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Both cases are good. That will make solar more useful, hence there are more pop to build more defs. ICC is the defense faction so I think more def on planets in BD is tolerant.
However, I notice that solar no longer works in the current map. May the issue be fixed?
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On 2010-06-16 15:27, Shigernafy wrote:
In R33, there should be 2 planets 3000gu to each other.
I assume you mean per "cluster" (or in this case, pair)?
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Well, I imagine if ICC capture any planet in R33, UGTO has the rights to ask their planets are not close to each other so that ICC can't spam missiles. My point is the arrangement of planets in each faction will be best for its faction's tactics, and prevent the enemy tactics.
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On 2010-06-16 15:27, Shigernafy wrote:
We consider spawn gates eligible for safe zones, but don't always add them.. I'll have to consult with other devs. If intersystem transfer gates had safe zones, they'd be small - just to give a few seconds of reaction time, not so large to be able to mass a fleet within their safety.
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I mean, the gate transfer to other server, like Cass gate, Lacerta gate etc.
There are a few times when a faction was out Sagi, and the enemies keep camping gate and kill the new appear ship although they couldn't move yet, completely prohibited the hope to re-capture system. That's pretty dirty trick and unfair.
Intersystem transfer gate does not need safe zone. Cause if the enemies camp with stations and dreads, can be revealed in Nav map. However, Kluth can cloak so I think the idea to have a small safe zone to protect small ships is also acceptable.
As a remind of when a faction out of Sagi, that's a disaster to fleet players. I witness that half of them stop playing and wait until they have sy on the planet again; some left the fleet to play in other faction. Since a planet can only be captured by enough infs, then if a faction has no planet in the server, how to change ship and find infs? It's risky and take long ime to move from server to server. Definitely some brave players have to make sacrifices in this case. I think it will be better if a faction has a definite planet (terran is best) in their own system, that if it's capped, it will revolt and control by the faction again (like Izhack).
Perhaps devs won't agree with me about this idea, and maybe I'm nonsensical. All I want, is people will play fair, and have fun in Sagi. BTW, since a reset will only occur when MV is exterminated by a faction, which mean never happen. Consequently, definite planet for a faction in Sagi may be more feasible.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-06-17 18:26
Also, FYI for an earlier point -- solar generators taper off over 300k gu and vary based on the angle to the sun (not just any light = max). They're also capped at 100 energy.
I can look at designing clusters such that they can produce power somewhat reliably, at least in BD. I like Diep Luc's comments about building the systems to somewhat fit how the factions play (or "are supposed to"). Even if its not realistic (whatever that is), it seems a reasonable idea.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-06-17 19:22
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On 2010-06-17 18:26, Shigernafy wrote:
Also, FYI for an earlier point -- solar generators taper off over 300k gu and vary based on the angle to the sun (not just any light = max). They're also capped at 100 energy.
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I'm guessing that's 100 energy per star? I see solars regularly producing 150+ in binary star systems if they're in full sun.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-06-17 19:31
Solars are capped at 100 energy in the MV? They certainly aren't in scenario where you in some systems you can get over +180 power per.
The general rule on solars is that 5 of them have to provide a constant +250 power or better, otherwise variance generators are better. That varies depending on what you want on the planet, and sometimes you don't have to worry at all (like if it's a barracks planet). The 5 solars have to be built on the equator with 3 empty spaces in betweenplanet. With that configuration you always have one in full light and two in lesser light, and those 3 together have to give +250 power at their lowest output, which means the solar directly in the center of the light needs +150 minimum power; the other two will give something like +80 each.
(the size of the planet does not matter, contrary to what some believe, so long as the rule of evenly spacing them is followed).
As for paths between jumpgates in a system, it's kinda hard to do what I have in mind, which is to make sure planets and stars aren't directly in the path between them (creating a red line) but that the path can go through dictor fields, meaning planets are very close to that path.
It's probably too much of a pain to make sure paths are clear of obstacles but not dictor fields. What should be done though is placing the jumpgates near the systems they connect to, so say if you go from BD to Luyten you aren't on the opposite side of Luyten from BD. To put it another way: If Dawn in Luyten is closest to the BD system, and Ihzack is farthest, the BD gate in Luyten should be in the Dawn/Zoca sector and not on the other side of the star.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-06-17 19:52
Well heres a pic I drew in paint (not vary good but you get the idea). The cluster relations to the star aren't correct, I was running out of space so kinda squished it a little.
Blue = Terran
Yellow = Arid
Light Blue = Ice
Dark Blue/Indigo = Ocean
Brown = Barren
Orange = Gas Giant
Edit: Pic is Thumbnailed
It is based on the 2 terran idea and binary system. The jump gates should be close to some of hte clusters. Planet count is 24 if you count the gas giant (which I figured you guys do count when counting planets per a system).
Orbits aren't 100% correct either but at least get them close enough to each other so there dicos can cover one another.
Binary systems help so much in planet def. You don't need as many power gens on a planet, and it helps in pop too, need only 5 pop for 5 solars vs 30 pop for 5 variance gens. You can fit more def on a planet thus making it harder to take, which would be good for ICC being as they are the "defensive faction". Also it just helps the factions overall, as you said, in the old MV (which I remember) it was all one linked map. So who cares if someone has a binary and someone doesn't, you have all those other systems to work with. Well now with the current MV in different servers, unable to talk to each other much less know where other people are (non fleeted or other fleets) balance is going to be needed in how planets are laid out. R33 as UGTO's home, ok as long as its planets stay, since you said its going to be there home so its going to get more planets, cool. Cinci I am sad to hear is getting smaller, by physical size it was BIG but thats not what I was taking about. It was the planets, those clusters were so nice to fight over, it was true cluster to cluster fighting.
Klaus and the new one that points to ursa should be swapped, OR that new one has both Pirates and MI in it, not just pirates. Otherwise ICC will have an issue getting to Proc to fight the MI, maybe just make Klaus one of the middle ones instead? Or even make Klaus an ungated system with proc gate in it and put a new one in its place.
As for the resourcer, I know its not the old editor, I never messed with the old one in the first place either so I wouldn't know the difference. I also know its locked to dev flag only, all I was asking was to be able to DL it and mess with it to see if I could help you guys at all. I don't know what I can or can't do, or even if I can figure out how to use it in the first place. I do know some Vis Studio C++ as I took a few classes a few years ago on it, I still have the program and my books to refresh on. Still would like to help if I can.
[ This Message was edited by: Starcommand of ICC *XO* on 2010-06-17 19:52 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Starcommand of ICC *XO* on 2010-06-17 19:55 ]
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Pyruvic
Fleet Admiral
Interstellar Cultural Confederation United
Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 18
From: CST - USA
| Posted: 2010-06-17 20:19
If you want to do something sort of randomly cool, you could look up nearby real life stars and extrasolar planets to use in Sag. ...Then again, they don't really have cool names nor do their stars. XD
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Reznor
Marshal
Joined: March 29, 2010
Posts: 316
| Posted: 2010-06-17 20:36
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On 2010-06-17 20:19, Pyruvic wrote:
If you want to do something sort of randomly cool, you could look up nearby real life stars and extrasolar planets to use in Sag. ...Then again, they don't really have cool names nor do their stars. XD
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Well, we haven't found any "Terran" planets yet. We've been limited to super hot gas giants (sever times larger than jupiter) that are in extremely close orbit to their sun. The gravitational pull the gas giant has pulls the star toward it during it's fast orbit, thus causing the star to wobble.
They've also started finding planets by watching a star's brightness. When a planet crosses between us and the star, the star's brightness drops.
But both of these methods only find large planets  . So we don't have any true maps of any system but our own.
I say just go with whatever is balanced. These should be considered final foothold before the core systems, and designed as such.
And I like starcommand's map, make that our system  .
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0stego
Fleet Admiral
United Armed Corps
Joined: October 04, 2008
Posts: 153
From: Sol System, Earth, Canada, AB.
| Posted: 2010-06-17 23:07
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On 2010-06-17 16:54, Shigernafy wrote:
What about adding a system in there somewhere that has no jump gates to it and say...5-10 planets spread out?
Doable, but.. I'm not quite sure of the point. Just an emergency fall-back position?
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I suppose, but I was thinking it could be more of a strategic system to hold as it would not be connected by jump gates so you would have to do a long jump consuming JD fuel or have an armada with you and use a wormhole to reach it. It would be quite a challenge to capture once a faction held the system as well... a sort of "island fortress".
Edit: Stick it right in the middle of the CIN/LUYT/NEW triangle with a Massive star at its center.
[ This Message was edited by: 0stego on 2010-06-17 23:11 ]
[ This Message was edited by: 0stego on 2010-06-17 23:13 ]
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Lux (Polaris)
Fleet Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: April 20, 2004
Posts: 835
From: Asgard
| Posted: 2010-06-18 01:38
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On 2010-06-17 12:55, Fleet Admiral CRAZY45 *TO* wrote:
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On 2010-06-17 12:07, Polaris {ISC} wrote:
Can I have my own system again? "Polaris" orbited by "Kitsune".... 
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thares a system in Rogens Named after you
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Woah, it's still there? Awesome! If the old one server MV comes back I hope it stays....
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Loyal Admiral of the Interstellar Cultural Confederation Navy.
Senior Commander of the Raven Warriors, the ICC elite.
Captain of the Assault Dreadnaught \"Gungnir\"
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-=LoKi=-
Marshal
Imperium
Joined: November 10, 2007
Posts: 83
From: Valhala
| Posted: 2010-06-18 03:16
Preale no more red gas please please pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-06-18 15:32
If you want to do something sort of randomly cool, you could look up nearby real life stars and extrasolar planets to use in Sag. ...Then again, they don't really have cool names nor do their stars.
I did that, actually. And of course the constellations are based at least in part on reality -- the shape of Ursa, for example, is of course of the dipper, and I even made it (mostly) accurately spaced and positioned.
But yeah, most planet names are pretty lame. So I just make those up. And as I've said earlier, for Sag, the main combat system, I think its more important to have balance over realism.
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Rebellion
Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 730
From: sol
| Posted: 2010-06-18 15:46
think it would be possabul to put some planets that orbit the sun it would give the game some more "flare" and would look cool
(thay dont need to be like that red one in secnrio that spins really fast just ones the orbit slowly)
Food for thoght....
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-06-18 16:36
There may be more ideas, that will make Sagi much better. Atm I want to thank Shigernafy, for great attiude and flexible of judgement and nice feedback.
Perhaps there something to do with planet size. It's odd to see a barren is bigger than a terran. I think should have some changes with the planet type, like the limit of strucs on a planet: 28 on barren, 30 on ice, 32 on ocean, 34 on arid and 36 on terran. Of course people will build SY on terran, and it's 32 strucs limit make it too weak to defense itself. Also, the same strucs limit doesn't accord to the planet size. Sometimes I think there are too many diamonds on a barren. A barren should only as big as Michelle.
Having fast flying planets (like Sirius 1) in Sagi would make it more fun. Players have to beware of planets. Suggest there are some in non-home system like cin, kaus. Consider fast flying planets can exist in BD, to help ICC spamming missiles.
If there is a center system to link cin, kaus and new system, I suggest all planets in that system will have asteroids around, not so close like Becky (that it would likely a dead planet), but crowed enough to prevent station rush? Why? People has to fight over that precious system, and they have to use teamwork and small ships to approve their talent.
Fast flying planets and asteroids will force players to use more small ships, rather than making DS dreadspace or stationspace. It would be nice to see that Sagi will have full types of ships.
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