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This game is a baby eater. |
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
|  Posted: 2010-11-18 17:51
In most games, small ship vs big ship is even more imbalanced than DS. How do these games make it so there are more small ships than big ships?
Newbie Overload- some popular game get so many new players that if a group of new players band together they could defeat a large ship. Obviously DS has an extremely slow new player joining rate.
Can't Touch The Small Ship- Big ships can't touch small ships, but it would take a year for the small ship to do significant damage. DS combat would be uber boring, plus only works with dice roll games
Money Aspect- Look at EVE, you have to risk large expensive ships, or take more smaller and expendable ones. DS has no currency of any sort.
Niche Role- What DS has. But noobs, not newbs, complain that a few small ships in the hands of new players should be able to take on big ships in the hands of more skilled players. Instead they ignore that smaller ships have better EW, bombing, suppying, engi, tranny, pd, and peppering with cannons that do damage over time.
We can't switch to other methods of small ships other than revamping the game system or direct intervention such as hard caps(really unpopular).
So what was your suggestion on small ships again? Beef them up to large ships size? Go ahead, put a newb in a CM account and watch him slowly get demoted. Or put a vet in a midshipman and watch him rise very fast.
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furtim
Admiral
Joined: June 06, 2005
Posts: 27
| Posted: 2010-11-18 19:27
"But noobs, not newbs, complain that a few small ships in the hands of new players should be able to take on big ships in the hands of more skilled players."
I dare you to quote someone in this thread actually saying this.
There have been people who said that this is already possible, and people who have said that it's possible to solo a dread in a cruiser, but they've all been vets making excuses to shoot down all of the actual suggestions for making the game friendlier for new players.
[ This Message was edited by: furtim on 2010-11-18 19:28 ]
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2010-11-18 20:39
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On 2010-11-17 21:24, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
The sad thing is that there already is a rank-limited newbie server for them to duke it out, but it's mostly empty because the newbies would rather go out into Sag and get murdered and then QQ about it in the forums.
If they all just stayed there in the first place to learn/level up instead of trying their luck in Sag, they wouldn't be here QQing about babyeating and an empty newb server.
ROFL. The irony of it all......
I think we should put a 'Caveat Emptor' notice upon entering Sag. You have been warned. This is no picnic.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-11-17 21:25 ]
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actually its usually empty because they can not figure out where it is
what did you guys expect when they merged all the servers except senerio.
that not only took me 6 months to figure out where each server starts and ends it turned it into bug central.
now try being a band new player trying to figure that out its a extremely steep learning curve and most get put off because of this.
mind you i had no idea what i am talking about and never do.
so answer one question how often was the newbie area used BEFore the merge.
500% more then what it is now which is 4 i only ever see 4 players in their and some of them are to high rank for the server.
in relation to bug central.
i can now repair platform with BUILDDRONES what the heck is with that never could before.
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Lrd_Hunter
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2006
Posts: 245
| Posted: 2010-11-18 20:39
you know all us VETS have been playing this game for years right and we had to freaking EARN our stuff and you guys come in and think yall should be able to get it in what a DAY comeon. if yall want easy street play wow eve or some other game. DS to me is more like the warhammer games( the board not video) were you have to work to earn the really cool stuff.
that why this game was so poplar when it was. i mean that was the game. this not like wow where you have quest and stuff. once your at maxed rank and have most if not all badges there nothing left to do. on games like wow you can keep doing quest or something. not here.
yes valid point newbie's get killed easly but we all have to learn to play the game. I did most of the other vets did. you think us vets are trying to make it easy for us and hard for new players. WERE NOT. we are actually doing the opposite. we are trying to get new players to understand that you have to work for it cause once you get it there nothing else to do.
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Bombg
Admiral
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2010-11-18 21:02
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On 2010-11-18 17:33, Azreal wrote:
Your idea is yto give some group bonus. This isn't WoW, thank God. We don't have group bonuses for ANYTHING in the game. Period. |
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How did WoW come into this? Last I checked WoW wasn't the first game to have group bonuses, and nor was it the last. How are group bonuses a negative other than that "WoW does it"?
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| No. New players need to learn to fly. Like me, when I started, I got my face wiped a few times. Then I learned. I read, I studied, I asked. I didn't beg for an Easy button. |
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Where did I come close to asking for anything that resembles an "easy button"?
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ANY nub can ask to group up with other people. Any group member shares the pres. That's all we have, it's more than WE EVER HAD B4, and tbh, it's better than it should be. |
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Heaven forbid that dictor gets any of the pres he helped other people get.
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| Irobically that was done to give reasons for small ships and support ships. You know. Like scouts and dictors and dessies? |
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and while it's certainly better than nothing I believe it's only a small step towards a more fun newbie experience.
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| you know all us VETS have been playing this game for years right and we had to freaking EARN our stuff and you guys come in and think yall should be able to get it in what a DAY comeon. |
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When did anyone ask to rank up in a day? This whole thread I've been saying that it would be nice if people used a larger selection of ships instead of dread/station 90% of the time. How does that translate into "easy" ?
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-18 21:03 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-18 21:10 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-11-18 22:01
If a player likes to play with big ships, let him play with big ships. Small ships in the hands of vets are effective, and some peoples' play styles favor small ships. It's just not as common because, for one, it seems a lot more cool and epic to be driving a big ship.
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Bombg
Admiral
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2010-11-18 22:44
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On 2010-11-18 22:01, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
If a player likes to play with big ships, let him play with big ships. Small ships in the hands of vets are effective, and some peoples' play styles favor small ships. It's just not as common because, for one, it seems a lot more cool and epic to be driving a big ship.
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Hey there's nothing wrong with piloting a big ship if that's what you want to do. Having other choices other than "big ship" wouldn't impede on that. I'm sure epicness is partially why people like the big ships, but I think a scout would be used on a common basis if there was a reason to. The Claws from years ago are proof of that.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-11-19 06:29
And it was the hull class leveling of weapons that killed that.
They wont undo that stupid move, no matter how much you beg. I know, as I said in an earlier post, I have been bitching and begging for it for 4 years.
For now, all you get is grouping for group effects.
And that is still more than we have ever had.
When I started this game, we had no AI. We had no grouping. Now we have ai for nubs to practice on and vets to farm. We have grouping to allow for shared pres.
Group effects have been talked about before, and, as far as I am aware they have been soundly rejected.
Why did I say WoW? Because it is one of many OTHERS that do this. Others. Others that are not DS. I dont play Wow. Im not into Elves and Dwarves. I don't play Eve, I want real control and action. Group bonuses handed out for simply SPAWNING A CERTAIN SHIP? I don't see the excuse for it.
DS has always tried, im my opinion, to make it about you and your ship vs them and their ship. It was better, I think, when all we could do was mod weapons. None of this enhancement garbage. Then it was all about who was better behind the stick.
The more they move AWAY from that system, the worse this game has gotten. Period. That's not just my opinion. Its a fact based on the exodus of players over the years as the game has "progressed".
Has DS ever had the numbers it did in .481 again? Nope.
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Derpy
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 12, 2010
Posts: 4
| Posted: 2010-11-19 08:42
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On 2010-11-18 22:01, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
If a player likes to play with big ships, let him play with big ships. Small ships in the hands of vets are effective, and some peoples' play styles favor small ships. It's just not as common because, for one, it seems a lot more cool and epic to be driving a big ship.
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Hasn't it always seemed ironic that the game only gets easier and not more challenging the higher rank you get? Lets let the newbies fly ships that are only effective [b]when you're a veteran[/]b. But lets let veterans fly ships that are better and take less skill to use.
That makes perfect sense.
-Ent
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2010-11-19 10:10
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On 2010-11-19 08:42, Enterprise wrote:
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On 2010-11-18 22:01, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
If a player likes to play with big ships, let him play with big ships. Small ships in the hands of vets are effective, and some peoples' play styles favor small ships. It's just not as common because, for one, it seems a lot more cool and epic to be driving a big ship.
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Hasn't it always seemed ironic that the game only gets easier and not more challenging the higher rank you get? Lets let the newbies fly ships that are only effective [b]when you're a veteran[/]b. But lets let veterans fly ships that are better and take less skill to use.
That makes perfect sense.
-Ent
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talk to me when they remove that problem in eve 
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-11-19 13:08
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On 2010-11-19 08:42, Enterprise wrote:
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On 2010-11-18 22:01, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
If a player likes to play with big ships, let him play with big ships. Small ships in the hands of vets are effective, and some peoples' play styles favor small ships. It's just not as common because, for one, it seems a lot more cool and epic to be driving a big ship.
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Hasn't it always seemed ironic that the game only gets easier and not more challenging the higher rank you get? Lets let the newbies fly ships that are only effective [b]when you're a veteran[/]b. But lets let veterans fly ships that are better and take less skill to use.
That makes perfect sense.
-Ent
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Hmmmm. Reconcile this point of view with the following....
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On 2010-11-16 13:02, Enterprise wrote:
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On 2010-11-11 20:32, Bombg wrote:
New players have no chance against the dreads and stations people are flying around these days, and with prestige gain being lowered in the future it's only going to make the problem worse.
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-11 20:46 ]
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I've played this game casually for four days.
I've flown nothing but combat ships.
I'm almost 1RA with five hours of play time and gold combat. Wrong. End of thread.
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I'm just sayin'.........
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2010-11-19 13:10 ]
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sparky43
Vice Admiral
Joined: November 08, 2010
Posts: 25
From: Florida
| Posted: 2010-11-19 13:57
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On 2010-11-16 13:02, Enterprise wrote:
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On 2010-11-11 20:32, Bombg wrote:
New players have no chance against the dreads and stations people are flying around these days, and with prestige gain being lowered in the future it's only going to make the problem worse.
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-11 20:46 ]
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I've played this game casually for four days.
I've flown nothing but combat ships.
I'm almost 1RA with five hours of play time and gold combat. Wrong. End of thread.
Amen Brother, Testify!
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2010-11-16 13:02 ]
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Dreadnought. Lest ye be Dreaded.
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sparky43
Vice Admiral
Joined: November 08, 2010
Posts: 25
From: Florida
| Posted: 2010-11-19 14:08
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On 2010-11-18 19:27, furtim wrote:
"But noobs, not newbs, complain that a few small ships in the hands of new players should be able to take on big ships in the hands of more skilled players."
I dare you to quote someone in this thread actually saying this.
There have been people who said that this is already possible, and people who have said that it's possible to solo a dread in a cruiser, but they've all been vets making excuses to shoot down all of the actual suggestions for making the game friendlier for new players.
[ This Message was edited by: furtim on 2010-11-18 19:28 ]
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Sir, I have to argue with you. I don't like it, but here goes. I'm a n00b (pick either spelling) and I've got a grand total of something like 30 hours in this game. I found it 10 days ago. I am loaded up on combat stats and I have absolutely no enhancements. I play free. Yet, look at me here I am a 1st RA and I plink Dreads in a BC or MC. In an assault dessie I can plink dreads and stations. What started this thread was someone whining that a scout has no real role in combat (which is untrue), I base this statement on the fact that I use one againt K'luth to plant beacons so they cant hide from me. You have obviously joined a fleet so if you want to use lil' ships effiectively go do it. Hellfire, arrange a dessie/ scout/frigate fleet if you want and then take your massive numbers and coordinate massive strikes on dreads. My point is, there is always a solution. Messing with the game engine just because one frigate can't destroy a station is ridiculous. That's a no brainer; the reason is mass. That's like saying an H-bomb is the same as a hand grenade.
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Dreadnought. Lest ye be Dreaded.
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Bombg
Admiral
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2010-11-19 16:45
[quote]
On 2010-11-19 06:29, Azreal wrote:
Quote:
| Group bonuses handed out for simply SPAWNING A CERTAIN SHIP? I don't see the excuse for it. |
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How about to make a certain ship more useful, and to promote teamwork? Or if you're point is that it doesn't make logical sense; well it's a game lots of things don't make sense in realistic terms.
But that was just one suggestion. There's many more ways they could promote the use of lower tier ships, and that's certainly not the only way to do it.
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The more they move AWAY from that system, the worse this game has gotten. Period. That's not just my opinion. Its a fact based on the exodus of players over the years as the game has "progressed".
Has DS ever had the numbers it did in .481 again? Nope.
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There's never any one reason why a game has a declining population. But here's something to keep in mind. The vast majority of new players to any free game never come back after their first play session.
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| Hmmmm. Reconcile this point of view with the following.... |
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How does this disprove that bigger ships take less skill than smaller ships?
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| I base this statement on the fact that I use one againt K'luth to plant beacons so they cant hide from me. You have obviously joined a fleet so if you want to use lil' ships effiectively go do it. Hellfire, arrange a dessie/ scout/frigate fleet if you want and then take your massive numbers and coordinate massive strikes on dreads. My point is, there is always a solution. Messing with the game engine just because one frigate can't destroy a station is ridiculous. That's a no brainer; the reason is mass. That's like saying an H-bomb is the same as a hand grenade. |
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Did you actually read any post I made beyond the first one? Because I've already made a response to everything you've said here. So how about making a reply to one of those.
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-19 16:54 ]
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Derpy
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 12, 2010
Posts: 4
| Posted: 2010-11-19 20:27
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On 2010-11-19 13:08, Azreal wrote:
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On 2010-11-19 08:42, Enterprise wrote:
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On 2010-11-18 22:01, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
If a player likes to play with big ships, let him play with big ships. Small ships in the hands of vets are effective, and some peoples' play styles favor small ships. It's just not as common because, for one, it seems a lot more cool and epic to be driving a big ship.
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Hasn't it always seemed ironic that the game only gets easier and not more challenging the higher rank you get? Lets let the newbies fly ships that are only effective when you're a veteran[/]b. But lets let veterans fly ships that are better and take less skill to use.
That makes perfect sense.
-Ent
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Hmmmm. Reconcile this point of view with the following....
Quote:
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On 2010-11-16 13:02, Enterprise wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-11-11 20:32, Bombg wrote:
New players have no chance against the dreads and stations people are flying around these days, and with prestige gain being lowered in the future it's only going to make the problem worse.
[ This Message was edited by: Bombg on 2010-11-11 20:46 ]
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I've played this game casually for four days.
I've flown nothing but combat ships.
I'm almost 1RA with five hours of play time and gold combat. Wrong. End of thread.
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I'm just sayin'.........
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2010-11-19 13:10 ]
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Fair enough, I'll explain.
In context, the first point addresses the fact that in order to gain alot of prestige from small ships, you need alot of skill, however, with bigger ships at higher ranks, it takes less skill to gain prestige at a considerably higher rate. Why is it that the newbies are challenged harder than veterans? It's been shown time and again that the best MMOs model around progression that starts fast and bottoms out once you start reaching end game. Darkspace is the reverse of this. Players who are new and learning the ropes should not have to fly the hardest ships in the game right off the bat.
The second quote, in context, is meant to address the effectiveness, [b]not about prestige gain, of smaller ships. Small ships do not suck, and because of my skill level I can fly solo on Kluth and get where I am in little time. If newbies banded together in small ships against larger ones - and there weren't so many larger ones because they are so easy to get, then there is nothing wrong.
-Ent
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