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Stations, what are they good for? |
Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
|  Posted: 2010-05-02 23:46
Wouldn't that be hard to code, and will serve to totally throw the balance off?
Compared to some of the suggestions in this thread that you do not seem to take offense to it would be easy to code.
If I have 10 guys on my team and the enemy has only 3, my weaps suddenly do less damage? Or vice versa?
The team with fewer people would get a buff.
That's totally inconsistent, and will throw you off completely. Your torps could be monsters one day, and peashooters the next.
It would hardly throw people completely off, for one I am not talking about that big of a buff, only enough to encourage balanced teams. This has been done in other mmos.
They're not OP. Ship balance is about as right as they can possibly be.
Exactly, the problem is with an imbalance in the teams, hence a mechanism to promote balanced teams.
Class limits is simple to implement from a Dev's point of view. Don't need major recoding work, less probability for errors or bugs. As noted by another player, other team based games have class limits to help gameplay balance and to prevent spammage of a certain classes. Imagine Battlefield 2 where everyone jumps into a tank.... it would defeat the purpose of a combined arms game. They paid to play BF2, but it doesn't mean that they're entitled to get a tank anytime.
Introducing hard limits into games is generally bad practice; it is a band aid not a solution. The example of tanks in battlefield is not a far comparison because it is a much different game mechanic; a closer comparison would be a server that limits the number of snipers on a team.
how many of them are actually willing to get out of their favorite big ships and take a tranny, dictor, or bomber to actually help the team out?
I can fly any ship in the game but I rarely fly stations and I’m generally happy to grab a scout or other support ship when useful.
[ This Message was edited by: Sops on 2010-05-02 23:48 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-02 23:52
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| Compared to some of the suggestions in this thread that you do not seem to take offense to it would be easy to code. |
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Actually I'm suggesting class limits as the only viable fix. It'll be quick to implement too. Adding gravity wells, damage modifiers, etc, just complicates things too much.
And I'm not even proposing to limit the number of dreads. Just stations. And it applies to all factions, not just one. 4 stations as a fixed number anytime is good.
Whether there be 16 players on one side, and 10 on the others, if we have only a limited number of stations, the better the balance will be. Stations are just too awesome in their sheer armor and repair capabilities.
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The example of tanks in battlefield is not a far comparison because it has a much different game mechanic; a closer comparison would be a server that limits the number of snipers on a team.
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Yes Sops. This would be a good comparison.
Snipers are usually considered OP in FPS games. Long range, one shot kills.
My question to you: Would you like 16 vs 16 snipers in a game like Battlefield, Counterstrike, COD, MW2?
It's not a temporary solution, I can assure you. It is the only solution to prevent spammage of one class, because players by nature, will never regulate themselves.
Bigger is always better. If there were 16 GAs on one faction, you would almost be sure that they'll all pull out stations to defend their planet. Because they know that nothing will get through.
So the question to the Devs is.... did you envision that kinda gameplay for DS?
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-03 01:37 ]
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-05-03 02:05
This thread is just one of the many aspects of a long runnng issue and debate within darkspace.
It basically breaks down into something of how we define the classes. For many, it's seen as a progression into overall "better" ships; upgrades and replacements from the smaller classes. These expectations pretty accurately reflect the system we have now.
The problem is, all the other classes get left behind. Everyone wants to be biggest because they're the best. Class limits won't change that, only cause frustration. Imagine if afk or terrible players were taking up all your class slots.
The only way to really fix it is to work out why there is such a bias towards large ships and address that. As i see it, small ships do not do enough damage, and stations do too much. We've been too long stuck in the idea that it should take x ships to kill y higher class. It's impractical, unfair and doesn't have any place in an online game.
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Sputter{TB}
Grand Admiral
Interstellar Cultural Confederation United
Joined: September 22, 2004
Posts: 109
From: Pennsylvania
| Posted: 2010-05-03 02:22
ok you could just use a few MDs vs them, uggies always complain when you bring out MDs and run away to hug fast, but we wouldn't need them if they didn't come to us with 5+ stns and equal number of supplies
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-03 02:47
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On 2010-05-03 02:05, Lonectzn wrote:
This thread is just one of the many aspects of a long runnng issue and debate within darkspace.
It basically breaks down into something of how we define the classes. For many, it's seen as a progression into overall "better" ships; upgrades and replacements from the smaller classes. These expectations pretty accurately reflect the system we have now.
The problem is, all the other classes get left behind. Everyone wants to be biggest because they're the best. Class limits won't change that, only cause frustration. Imagine if afk or terrible players were taking up all your class slots.
The only way to really fix it is to work out why there is such a bias towards large ships and address that. As i see it, small ships do not do enough damage, and stations do too much. We've been too long stuck in the idea that it should take x ships to kill y higher class. It's impractical, unfair and doesn't have any place in an online game.
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Hmmm. OK, I understand where ya coming from.
What then could be an alternative to class limits?
According to dev logs, there are new missiles coming out. Perhaps what the smaller ships need are slow moving but very powerful missiles or torpedoes designed for use against slow moving targets like stations, and to a smaller extent, dreads. The smaller and faster ships could probably avoid them, but the heavies will have a more difficult time doing so.
As to whether stations themselves should have those powerful missiles... well, maybe. It would be unrealistic not to.
Whatever the case is, there should be some sort of rock-paper-scissors balance where all ships have a distinct vulnerability to another particular ship class.
Right now, stations have no real vulnerability to any of the other classes. The only way to take one down without using another station is to overwhelm it with numbers....
(Maybe what we need are tractor scouts  )
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-05-03 07:18
There will be some new ships coming out soon, with some new missiles as well.
Liner Drive Missiles (LDM) missiles form the 300A Missile Dread no more IT/PCM mix its all LDM's high damage high powered missiles but horrible accuracy, would work only against dreads and stations. These are Tier 3 missiles
The UGTO will be getting a new Missile Cruiser as well with Tier 2 missiles (basically a redone MC with a new type of PCM).
These ships will end the issues with OMG UGTO STATION SPAM!!!!111
Issue is when UGTO stations are in bulk, they can out repair what ICC can do in its pea shooter damage even with MD/MC spam. On the flip side ICC stations crumple like paper to focus fire even with 10 stations behind it repairing it. Why? Its been said before, shields need to be repairable!
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-03 07:36
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On 2010-05-03 07:18, Fast Starcommand *CO* wrote:
Issue is when UGTO stations are in bulk, they can out repair what ICC can do in its pea shooter damage even with MD/MC spam. On the flip side ICC stations crumple like paper to focus fire even with 10 stations behind it repairing it. Why? Its been said before, shields need to be repairable!
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Eh, dude. I hate to say this. But quit comparing ICC stations vs UGTO stations already.
What gives?? Get off it man. The point of this whole thing is to propose how the number of stations in a system at any one time.... UGTO, ICC, or Kluth.... could be reduced, or their spammage discouraged....
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2010-05-03 08:20
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On 2010-05-03 07:36, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
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On 2010-05-03 07:18, Fast Starcommand *CO* wrote:
Issue is when UGTO stations are in bulk, they can out repair what ICC can do in its pea shooter damage even with MD/MC spam. On the flip side ICC stations crumple like paper to focus fire even with 10 stations behind it repairing it. Why? Its been said before, shields need to be repairable!
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Eh, dude. I hate to say this. But quit comparing ICC stations vs UGTO stations already.
What gives?? Get off it man. The point of this whole thing is to propose how the number of stations in a system at any one time.... UGTO, ICC, or Kluth.... could be reduced, or their spammage discouraged....
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i think star is trying to make the point how much damage a ugto station can take vrs a icc station.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-03 09:17
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On 2010-05-03 08:20, Fatal Borgie wrote:
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On 2010-05-03 07:36, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
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On 2010-05-03 07:18, Fast Starcommand *CO* wrote:
Issue is when UGTO stations are in bulk, they can out repair what ICC can do in its pea shooter damage even with MD/MC spam. On the flip side ICC stations crumple like paper to focus fire even with 10 stations behind it repairing it. Why? Its been said before, shields need to be repairable!
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Eh, dude. I hate to say this. But quit comparing ICC stations vs UGTO stations already.
What gives?? Get off it man. The point of this whole thing is to propose how the number of stations in a system at any one time.... UGTO, ICC, or Kluth.... could be reduced, or their spammage discouraged....
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i think star is trying to make the point how much damage a ugto station can take vrs a icc station.
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Yes. I realize that, and I think everyone does by now.
Anyway, at least Jack has indicated that they're looking into the issue. That's some comfort at least. 
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Max Kepler
Fleet Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: March 08, 2002
Posts: 589
From: ICS Victory
| Posted: 2010-05-03 20:04
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On 2010-05-02 21:44, Sops wrote:
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On 2010-05-02 20:58, Max Kepler wrote:
Also: Give Torpedo/Assault Cruisers FULL or at least FORE,LEFT,RIGHT firing arcs. These would be fantastic ships at taking down stations, if not for the fact that they have to bear right down on the station to fire. The current system basically eliminates the whole point of having a more maneuverable ship. Remove some beams (or even a torpedo or two) if you have to equal the firepower out. Just let them do what they're meant to do!
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They do what they are designed to do just fine, you are just not using them right.
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I doubt we would agree on what they are designed to do. I'm guessing your meaning is get in close and mash spacebar.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-05-03 23:44
Most ships actually used to have full arcs on many weapons including torps. Created weird tactics - it was more often effective to stay in front if a ship and fire torps back, because they couldnt evade it.
Smaller ships just need more damage overall. It's pointless if the only thing they can do is kill other small ships.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-04 00:06
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On 2010-05-03 23:44, Lonectzn wrote:
Most ships actually used to have full arcs on many weapons including torps. Created weird tactics - it was more often effective to stay in front if a ship and fire torps back, because they couldnt evade it.
Smaller ships just need more damage overall. It's pointless if the only thing they can do is kill other small ships.
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Well maybe one way to do this is to allow bomb/missile slots on some of the small ships (like the bomber frigs/dessies) to be swapped out for "special" missiles or torps that are particularly destructive on stations. Slow moving, huge AOE, massive damage causing projectiles that ships can avoid, but stations can't.
In effect, they are still bombing... but not bombing planets. They're bombing stations and dreads. Range would be an issue. Like the standard torp, the range could be under 500 gus. Which would also put the small ship at risk of being smashed by the station's long range guns or nearby capships. This way, it would be possible to significantly hurt or kill a station with a group of small ships, but there would be substantial risks involved.
This might serve to get ppl into smaller ships finally.
OK, so maybe "special" is a bad term to use. It would be more like anti cap-ship/station torpedoes, or something to that tune. Perhaps something that moves slowly like the current torpedoes, but with the explosive yield and AOE of a salvo of AM mines.
Remember that old Origin game, Wing Commander? Some of the bombers had anti capship torpedoes that took a heckuva long time to lock on, and it couldn't hit enemy fighters by any chance, but it did massive damage to capships.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-04 00:13 ]
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Fatal Command (CO)
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: November 27, 2002
Posts: 1158
From: over here in New York noticing some ppl are like canoes.....they need to be paddled.
| Posted: 2010-05-04 03:53
I'd like to see sabot damage upped by 25%-30%.small fast moving ships with 2-3 sabot racks could really slam stations...but would need to watch the range of station weps so they dont get to close and get ZAPPED.The sabot is only wep I know of that wasnt listed as being changed in any way...could be wrong tho.But seriously...up sabot damage and watch the smaller ships actually get combat pres then.
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Hakketak
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 301
| Posted: 2010-05-04 10:30
my desycnh makes my aimed WH appear in a diameter of 3K Gu of spot i aimed at....useless....
If WH would be addapted to work with the same desynch on all players, problem is solved, stations cant surprise ur planet from couple hundred gu, and they still got their speed handicap.
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DarkCloudd
Grand Admiral
Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 85
From: Iowa
| Posted: 2010-05-04 11:10
Maybe a crazy question but why does the support stations have any kind of ranged weapons. Why aren't they like a slightly more mobile version of the supply platform. Point defenses and not much else? Lower it so it only has 2 beams per arc and 3 beams that cover 360 degrees. If you are flying anything support your first option should be to run away if you are being targeted.
That would help with the station spam because if they are in a mix of support and battle then you can focus fire on the support ones and drive them off first then the battle stations are left without their extra repair support that makes them more powerful than they should be, leaving you free to do whatever you were working for before they showed up.
Another point to wonder or suggest, would it be possible to make infantry show up as cargo on the ship selection screen to help prevent the (I have seen it done and its really annoying) stations being used as a tranny to reinforce a planet, that way you can only have a certain amount in your ship selection cargo bay, and not have 3-4 stations sitting in your garage with a full load of 12 infantry on them. Or limit the amount of infantry a station can carry to something less than 10, they shouldnt ever be used as a super power tranny. Before you say it yes it has happened before, a couple weeks ago I think, ICC was pushed back and trying to recap Evast in Sag and after tranny dropping to get the infantry amount down UTGO station rushed 4 full stations to it and completely trashed what we spent 30 minutes trying to get capped.
Just my few thoughts, flame away, (I'm sure it will happen)
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