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Stations, what are they good for? |
Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
|  Posted: 2010-05-05 11:27
Quote:
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On 2010-05-03 07:18, Starcommand of ICC wrote:
These ships will end the issues with OMG UGTO STATION SPAM!!!!111
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sigh, this isnt an issue with UGTO station spamming. its an issue with EVERY faction station spamming.
a few days ago it was UGTO, right now its ICC.
basically ppl seem to station spam when they have superior numbers because that means the risk of dying is minimal so they can afford the "risk" even tho the risk isnt really that high anyway as losing a station don't hurt at all.
and to the ppl saying stations isnt overpowered, no ONE station isnt. 5, 10 or even 15 stations, THATS overpowered. 15 dreads, not so much because they cant repair themself or others.
and as this is supposed to be a MMO devs are gonna need to start to balance the ships from that point, not from a single player point of view which seems to be the case with stations.
i'm actually starting to agree with the ppl saying that there should be a hardcap on how many stations you can have out at any point in time.
i dont *like* it but i cant see an easier way to deal with it.
so look into having a hardcap on stations per server per faction, implementg that and see how it goes, IF it works out, look into reducing the number of dreads each side can have and implement that. if THAT works keep it as is, cruisers are by description the main force in a fleet and should have no hardcap restrictions.
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Aeraesoria
Admiral
Synchronicity
Joined: October 25, 2007
Posts: 49
From: Aeraesoria
| Posted: 2010-05-05 14:17
I have to agree there hardly most of the time I'm playing I see more dread space then anything else, a bit few stations as well. But most anything I see is dreads... oodles of dreads and hardly any cruisers. I might see maybe 2 or 3... maybe even 4 or 5 cruisers but that is it... I myself fly cruisers as a mainstay... because it lasts a heck of a lot longer then me flying in a dread.
Personally with me and dreads... I feel like I'm in a box which has lots of high powered weapons and well... it's slow... like... "WAIT WHERE ARE THE BRAKES ON THIS THING!? DOES IT EVEN TURN!?" I try not to get to close to enemy dreads when I fly in a cruiser... good reason... the closer you are to a Dread/Station the worse off your gonna be because the closer you are the more easy it is to get hit by those weapons. Further out you are the more easy it is to DODGE those shots at you.
IMHO I fly a HC, rare you'll see me flying an Assault Cruiser unless I'm asked to do so or I deem the situation necessary... reason? Assault Cruiser doesn't last as long as a HC lol your life time in those things is short especially if you don't have back up.
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Thugomatic
Chief Marshal
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 166
From: Missoula Montana
| Posted: 2010-05-05 19:00
How about a slighty bigger differentiation between each station class. Here is some fairly rough ideas, as new missles are coming out soon and ships are being redone from the ground up these are again fairly rough.
slurpy class stations
Just give em a great amount of small beams and than add factionality differenceds from there, icc supp would have about 50 percent more missles, the ugto suppy would be loaded wit fighters while the hive would probly get some RA's. Get rid of all the core weapons on em.
Battle class
Give em the same basic layouts of eachother than add factionality differences again. Also reduce one repair drone.
The icc station should keep same basic layout but it should also pack more missles than the Support station.
With the ugto BS keep the basic same layout, ditch the one missle and add more fighters too it.
Now the nest, here is a station that basicly just has me thinking. I would like too make a proposal on it but players knowing im a kluthonian will look upon this with scrutiny possibly. All i know is we dont fly them cause they just basicly stink. All im gonna say is it should go too having RA's with a decent amount of AM torps as well as SI's.
Command class
2 reloads 2 builds
just like its support brother it will have a great payload of small beams
as far as real weapons go i would say a smaller amount than the suppy stations. and have a good fighter loadout. Also no Core weaponology.
Icc C. station 11 fighters
Ugto C. station 14 fighters
Colony station 11 fighters
With the higher fighter counts i would think perhaps instead of shutting down ur ability too launch 4 salvo's of fighters it should just be 3, this will be 3 less fighters total for the icc and kluth station. The ugto would have 6 more fighters out there.
These are fairly loose ideas keep in mind and in no way is precisely wat i want just a little food for future thought.
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ssj4megaman
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2003
Posts: 54
From: San Diego
| Posted: 2010-05-06 01:14
I can definitely say ugto repair rate is way too high for the armor they have. I remember attacking a station down to 3 hull and less than 6 armor and he jumped and got away, he jumped to a depot planet and LITERALLY in ~15 seconds his armor was at 40+ %...
i remember that because he just blew up on of my ships and i came back for him and i almost killed him, and was contemplating jumping to the planet to try to take him out but not when i saw his armor that high in seconds... it was literally faster than 1% per second.
Now alot of you will say luth repair fast bla bla bla, but luth dont have insane armor like ugto, our armor is paper thin, and we cannot customize our armor to our enemy.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-06 03:26
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On 2010-05-06 01:14, /SkyMarshall\SSJ4MEGAMAN wrote:
I can definitely say ugto repair rate is way too high for the armor they have. I remember attacking a station down to 3 hull and less than 6 armor and he jumped and got away, he jumped to a depot planet and LITERALLY in ~15 seconds his armor was at 40+ %...
i remember that because he just blew up on of my ships and i came back for him and i almost killed him, and was contemplating jumping to the planet to try to take him out but not when i saw his armor that high in seconds... it was literally faster than 1% per second.
Now alot of you will say luth repair fast bla bla bla, but luth dont have insane armor like ugto, our armor is paper thin, and we cannot customize our armor to our enemy.
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One possible fix for repair rates, and perhaps station spamming, is this......
For every ship, limit the number of drones that can be used on it at any given time. Say.... 3 drones max.
So let's say a heavy supp targets this station and uses his 2 supp drones on it. The 2nd supp ship who targets the station can only assign 1 drone to it. The other drone is unused, and can be used to repair another ship.
The 3rd supp ship? Find someone else, pal. 
This 3 drone limit should include the supp's or staion's own rep drones... i.e. Shift-Y. If another ship is using 3 drones on you... you can't use Shift-Y on yourself either. 3 drones max per ship. That's it.
This will fix obviously unrealistic and uberly ridiculous repair rates across the board for all ships regardless of classes or factions.
So will stations be invincible anymore if they can't rep that fast... or can't run that fast?
Think abt it. If your station can only be repped by 3 drones at any one time, and you max running speed is 5 gu/s, and you get dictored, and your planet is blockaded, and you have an armada of enemy dreads and cruisers pouring concentrated fire on you....
.....will you want to be in one all the time? Will you feel secure flying one in the face of an enemy swarm? 
For your consideration, folks.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-06 03:57 ]
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-05-06 04:14
ah but doing that will SLOW the return to combat after losing a ship, this topic is a dubble edged sword here. If you limit drones to balance combat you nerf the non combat repair. This is no straight fix to this one other then putting a limiter IN combat for drones. So 5 max in combat so any enemy dessy+ within 2k gu will kick the limiter in much like how blockaid works. This will still allow ships to quickly repair at depot planets but no that fast while IN combat.
Couple this with the return of the pres loss that stations/dreads had pre pillow fight days (1.5) and you will see fewer and fewer stations/dreads and more cruiser combat again.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-06 04:25
Quote:
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On 2010-05-06 04:14, Starcommand of ICC wrote:
ah but doing that will SLOW the return to combat after losing a ship, this topic is a dubble edged sword here. If you limit drones to balance combat you nerf the non combat repair. This is no straight fix to this one other then putting a limiter IN combat for drones. So 5 max in combat so any enemy dessy+ within 2k gu will kick the limiter in much like how blockaid works. This will still allow ships to quickly repair at depot planets but no that fast while IN combat.
Couple this with the return of the pres loss that stations/dreads had pre pillow fight days (1.5) and you will see fewer and fewer stations/dreads and more cruiser combat again.
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Slow the return to combat? Why should it?
Cruisers, desses and frigs will still rep up pretty fast with 3 drones attending to it. The only affected classes will be the stations and dreads.
I thought we wanted to see less of those?
And besides... I don't mind jumping in close to a planet and eating some PD fire if it means attacking a 11% station that's feverishly trying to rep himself. If he's smart, he woulda SY and change to a cruiser.
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Sputter{TB}
Grand Admiral
Interstellar Cultural Confederation United
Joined: September 22, 2004
Posts: 109
From: Pennsylvania
| Posted: 2010-05-06 04:58
if you want the SS to be a pd boat and sit back how about make the pd useful, and does the uggy stns need anymore fighters i mean really they already own and you can't stop them until they get 300 or less gu away and by then they are already done owning you, i say we do something about pd for stns to cause the pulse atm are severly lacking
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-06 05:03
Why are ICC players still whining about how their stations are woefully inadequate when put up against UGTO stations? That's not the point of this thread.
Could we stick to the topic abt how to reduce station spamming?
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-05-06 10:58
Quote:
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On 2010-05-06 04:14, Starcommand of ICC wrote:
ah but doing that will SLOW the return to combat after losing a ship, this topic is a dubble edged sword here. If you limit drones to balance combat you nerf the non combat repair. This is no straight fix to this one other then putting a limiter IN combat for drones. So 5 max in combat so any enemy dessy+ within 2k gu will kick the limiter in much like how blockaid works. This will still allow ships to quickly repair at depot planets but no that fast while IN combat.
Couple this with the return of the pres loss that stations/dreads had pre pillow fight days (1.5) and you will see fewer and fewer stations/dreads and more cruiser combat again.
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As Kenny said , Station and Dreads should take more time to be repaired. With 3 or 5 supply drones any small ship will be in the field less than 2 minutes at all. Also consider as ICC , doesnt matter how many repair drone you have , you still need to wait for your station's shield, dont you?
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Phoebuzz
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 110
| Posted: 2010-05-06 13:11
Stations are currently 'Death Stars'. High firepower, relatively low armor, and anemic fleet support. Anyone taking one station without other stations out will triggers the reenactment of 'Star Wars: A New Hope'. "Hey guys, there's a single prestige pinata at xxx, let's kill it."
To fix station these current problems must be fixed:
1. A station alone (that is without other stations) is far too vulnerable.
2. Stations currently only really bring firepower to the table, and that's the reason people bring station over other ships, firepower.
3. Stations in groups are far too hard to destroy because their survivability is based on supply drones.
To make stations not suicidal on their own (that is without tons of supply/other stations), they need more defense. That's more armor, at least 4 more directional armor plating for all factions including ICC. That will make a single station significantly harder to kill on their own.
To balance out the increased defense, and to balance out the individual usefulness of an extra station vs. an extra non-station, station firepower must heavily reduced. Stations should have equal or LESS firepower than dreads.
If a player wants to bring more firepower to battle they should bring more combat ships, not more stations.
To increase a station usefulness (outside of raw firepower) more fleet support utility should be added to stations. Supply drones on stations is NOT fleet support, it's self-support; stations use supply drones mainly on themselves or other stations.
Adding more supply drones to stations won't fix anything.
Adding more electronic warfares slot will encroach even more on the role of smaller ships.
Stations already have access to tractor beams, build drones and wormholes.
So the only other thing that we could add to station to improve their fleet support is an interdictor field device, preferably with extended range.
Adding interdictor field to stations will do several things. First it'll increase their survivability by quite alot as it'll slow close jumping 'suicide' dreads by quite alot. Second, it'll extend the function of station to that of their original design, sector control. Third, it rewards bringing one station for the dictor, but the dictors from extra station does not stack making station spamming alot less useful.
And last, combat supplying needs to be toned down. A diminishing return supplying system that is only active in combat would be optimal. Ex.: First supply drones repairs 4/4 hp, second 4/5 hp, third, 4/6 hp, then 4/7, 4/8, 4/9, etc.
TL;DR
Alot more armor, alot less weapons, dictors, diminishing return for combat repairs.
[ This Message was edited by: Phoebuzz on 2010-05-06 13:39 ]
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Gee191
Fleet Admiral
Joined: April 02, 2003
Posts: 88
| Posted: 2010-05-06 19:30
i know there used to be a triangle of death as far ship balance
cruiser die to dreads dreads die to stations and stations die to cruisers
what this really boiled down to was dreads where the mainstay stations where for rally and repair points and useful for caping but if stations alone went to cap they would get destroied by several tc/acs
the tc/as would stay as far away as possible and spam torps and if they worked together could take down stations fairlyy simply bc the stations in turn had issues even hiting the tc/acs
with the introductions of the battlestations and the way things seem to be balanced now this is still possible but much more difficult i dont see it happening unless there was either a buff to the attack cruisers or the interduction of high rank equivalents of lower tier ships
ie a ac mk2 which would be similar to ac but say with a bit higher max sped and more energy capacity
the main reason you see as many stations as you do is simple other than ead/ad/siphon/krill at admrial you can fly all the non stations then at fa you get the attack dreads and a station afte rthat other than the krill all you get is more stations so the only reason for drining on in rank is more station and if people got there there gunna use em
but if high rank smaller and better ships where put in the higher ranked players would have more options as its for combat there are really 3 choices atm attack dread sup station or battle station for a high level player wanting attack role
my 2 cents even if horribly spelled
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2010-05-07 18:08
The devs either need to re-write the ship descriptions (they srate cruisers are the main ships of a fleet, in game they are not)
or,they need to hardcap station and dred numbers. I see nothing wrong in doing that, and it will make it interesting.
AND IF YOU DEVS ARE WORRIED IT WONT WORK, JUST REMOVE IT NEXT VERSION!
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-05-07 18:50
I will say it again, bring back the old pres loss system for dreads and stations. Make it so that people will have to pay through the nose in pres loss if they want to keep flying those stations. 1200-2k pres loss a DEATH for a station will quickly make people think twice about pulling one out again. 600-1k for a dread and you will see more cruisers then you can shake a stick at.
DO NOT punish people for making GA in less then a month, when you lose almost nothing in pres when you die in a dread you tend to make it up there REAL fast. With pres getting made so easily its high time to put the pres LOSS back in.
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DarkCloudd
Grand Admiral
Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 85
From: Iowa
| Posted: 2010-05-07 21:33
If the devs consider making prestige loss higher then it shouldnt be as high as before, even a 50% increase in prestige will make the net prestige gain alot lower. If it is that high then people will do one of two things, either not fly dreads/stations or just planet hug them all day long and shipyard them when ever they start to get attacked and that will ruin combat all around. If it is put back that high then it will become cruiser space and Kluth will have the advantage in ships since they have the best cruisers of all the factions, at least I think they do in my opinion.
But this thread is about stations so back to that, I think and this is just my opinion, that they should take one supply bay off of the battle and command class stations. If you want something repaired then you need to use the suppy station for that. I also like the idea of have a limit to the number of drones that can be repping a ship in combat. If there is a limit then you might not but should see more people in something other than a station since its not an invincible planetary siege/dread killing/super powered tranny anymore.
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