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Kluth from the eyes of Ravens |
DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
|  Posted: 2010-08-13 22:16
Quote:
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On 2010-08-13 21:33, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
@ mint: krill is stupid =( dunno why it exists
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It exists cause there are stupid players who solo versus it.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-13 22:52
it doesnt make any sense from a faction design. you have a ship with good range and obscene firepower. its like a ministation. does not make sense.
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
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Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Mint Ice Cream[+R]
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 05, 2009
Posts: 43
| Posted: 2010-08-13 22:59
it exist as our mid range combatant since gang is almost useless
and no it not a mini-station since it don't have anything special beside 6+1 SI and can't not replace a real station
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-13 23:11
Quote:
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On 2010-08-13 21:02, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
Nest Station- Very powerful very armored. Two supply drones and one ahr were enough to make me able to solo anything. (1v1) In fleet actions, the station regained armor and hull so fast that just by taking turns uncloaking and firing, two stations were able to hold off 3 ugto stations for a laughable long time. We were eventually drove back. I felt the Nest was far superior to ICC line station and Supply station variants
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You were able to cloak vs 3 UGTO stations and they didn't fire on you? Not only do Kluth stations take a laughably long time to cloak and uncloak, but they cannot sustain a lot of damage, are as slow as other stations and are highly vulnerable to point-firing so even if you re-cloak you're doomed.
How did these 3 UGTO stations target you two? I'm really curious to know if all three stopped firing on the station that was cloaking and switched to the uncloaked one, constantly giving the other station time to auto repair. It doesn't make sense that they'd lose unless they did something as stupid as that.
EDIT: There was a time when Hives were worth using in combat, and they were the only Kluth station worth it. They aren't anymore; Hives took a bigger hit with the station nerf than the other stations, so big that using one in combat is suicide.
It's now very rare to see a Kluth station in combat unless the odds are already pretty overwhelming in Kluths' favor. Kluth can't spam stations to drive the enemy away the way ICC or UGTO can, because they're too fragile and take forever to cloak and uncloak.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-08-13 23:18 ]
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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2010-08-14 07:55
this thread is irrelevant. All this so called info that is being compiled on kluth to send to the devs is assuming the devs themselves dont play. We kluth have heard for years how they do play kluth. How about i create a thread about all the information i can get on ugto? Its a fair bet Backslash is pretty familiar with ugto. The information is also taken from a biased source. To get a true undersanding as a coomunity you need to have someone unbiased either against kluth or for kluth. The idea that sparkle is really shooting for is the truth. Only a third party can compile and create any information on the kluth. Perhaps sparkle( one of the few i accept as impartial) would be willing to compile and test all the assertions made by any person and any party. On the validy of of issues brought up by both kluth and non kluth alike and evaluate both kluth tactics and anti kluth tactics to finnally prove or disprove the notion kluth is op.
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No matter how hard they have tried. They havnt figured out how to nerf skill yet :P
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-14 08:11
Quote:
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On 2010-08-13 21:33, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
@ mint: krill is stupid =( dunno why it exists
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let's see. First cloak, now Krill.
Anything else you would like to nerf?
Let's not get too far ahead of yourself here.
Jack already said tt the Krill is due for a refit. So you really needn't have QQ abt it.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-08-14 08:25 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-14 08:41
er, everyone knows krill is outrageous? dont have to get defensive about it
also, im not trying to nerf anything. trying to balance. quite a big difference.
[ This Message was edited by: N'kra The Wolf on 2010-08-14 09:36 ]
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-14 11:26
Quote:
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On 2010-08-14 07:55, Necrotic wrote:
The idea that sparkle is really shooting for is the truth. Only a third party can compile and create any information on the kluth. Perhaps sparkle( one of the few i accept as impartial) would be willing to compile and test all the assertions made by any person and any party. On the validy of of issues brought up by both kluth and non kluth alike and evaluate both kluth tactics and anti kluth tactics to finnally prove or disprove the notion kluth is op.
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Well my unbiased opinion is to remove Kluth and make them an AI-only faction, because no matter what is done to "balance" them either humans or Kluth will not like it. There is no middle ground that will satisfy both.
It's also been said countless times since 1.5 that Kluth are currently balanced, and have never been more balanced. Those aren't my words, those are the devs' words. Why would it be true then but not now, since nothing about Kluth has been changed?
Seriously, it's been 9 years for me and for a lot of that time it's been the same tired arguments, only with slightly different elements to them like the current Krill or the old ECM fort.
The issue at it's heart, no matter who temporarily plays Kluth and no matter what arguments are brought forth, is that cloak is too annoying to play against. And like I said there's no way to balance it so it will satisfy both humans and Kluth. I actually agree that it's annoying to play against, but I'm a Kluth player so I don't play against it. Kluth to me are like submarines: slow, stealthy and deadly. Get in, do as much damage as you can, and get out. That's why I play them.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-14 11:31
no one can be impartial. its the way of human nature.
unfortunately necro you seem to be out on your own here. most people agree that there is a balance issue.
the idea that cloak is somehow unbalancable is kind of ridiculous as well. plenty of other games have it and balance it just fine.
can we please stop trying to flame one another and focus on coming up with solutions? @ the krill issue i was just making some small banter, who the hell cares. its going to get changed into something that actually fits kluth design later, its a non-issue.
we want to balance kluth gameplay so they are fun to fight against and fun to fight with. how do we do that people?
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-08-14 11:57
I dont think i can let this thread die in a few weeks without me replying in it.
Here I am , read every post during days. In each post i am shocked more and more.
I just want to say only one thing about this balance issue. You know this is game is based on PVP and it is online , so called MMO. Since it isnt masive for us , we cant realy know what is balance or not. In my own experience,
Situations :
[same class ship]
1kluth vs 1 icc/ugto : Uber Cloak .
5kluth vs 5 icc/ugto : Uber Cloak .
Between those pretty balanced combat situations.
10kluth vs 10 icc/ugto : Uber ECCM .
20kluth vs 20 icc/ugto : Uber ECCM .
5 sensor plats vs 1 kluth cruiser : Uber Cloak . decloak signal 46
15 sensor plats vs 1kluth cruiser : Uber ECCM. decloak signal 120.
This game's balance is based on accumulative effect of faction technologies. Cloak isnt accumalative. So , until certain numbers cloak will always look uber and unbalanced. But once human faction outnumbers or equalize kluth forces around 10 player limit, so called fleet pinging kicks in and ECCM looks unbalanced.ECM is accumulative but 1/2 weak at range and 1/3 times weak at level.
Data : Eccm 1000 gu range + 150gu per level.
Ecm 500 gu range + 50gu per leve.
Now Ecm's accumulative effect only works on decloak and cloak time since ecm doesnt counter pinging.
I dont know what the say anymore. This are my tought. Also i was going to make a really objective post about Icc , but after sad news of ryuk, i lost the joy of arguing.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-14 12:28
thanks for the input pakhos =)
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-14 12:44
so, i have a rough idea of a rework. its going to be controversial for everyone, but please hear me out and think about it before posting.
- remove beacons from game
- remove EW slots from every ship every faction cruiser and up (though perhaps add EW cruisers to each faction?)
- make weapons able to fire immediately after decloak
- put jump drive on a 10 second timer after decloak or make use of cloak reduce JD charge
- increase the effects of ECCM and ECM on cloak
- provide kluth with a dedicated EW ship. adjust EW slots on other small vessels to compensate
- stop allowing double AHR and/or reduce AHR effectiveness and/or put AHR on a timer (if timer, one shot of AHR should repair about 30% hull over its duration)
- add targetting lasers
- make level of damage effect cloak time
- reduce ECCM slots on human (especially ICC) ships so that ECCM pinging isnt as frequent
- slightly reduce armour values on kluth
Reasons:
i think the main issues that have been found with kluth are
A) there is no incentive to fly smaller ships, especially non-combat vessels
B) although they may not excell at either the hit or run part of their design philosophy, they are too good at both.
Cumulative effects:
thus my changes aim to do the following:
A) give incentive for kluth to fly supply vessels instead of relying on AHR, and ECM vessels instead of relying exclusively on cloak.
B) give kluth further advantage in the "hit" aspect of their design
C) handicap kluth in the "run" aspect of their design
Gameplay design:
K'luth are able to move into position easier due to less pinging, and with instant fire can hit hard and fast.
however, it is that initial strike that they depend on to win a round of combat. after their attack they enter the "run" phase. if their attack was poorly executed then not very many targets will have been killed while their own ships will be damaged and lit up with targetting lasers. with these disadvantages they will be very vulnerably while trying to escape the combat area.
if they are successful in their first strike, the heavy hitters of the fleet pull off while smaller vessels (cruisers, destroyers, frigates) engage the remaining enemy targets - either killing targets that were severely damaged or covering the retreat of the larger vessels with ECM, interference fire, etc. and yes, this means you are doing multiple hit and run attacks overlapping one another: one meant to break down main defenses and the other meant to wipe out your targets while protecting the larger ships from phase 1
the actual fighting aspect of kluth is very brief and depends on coordination beforehand. the running aspect is where they receive casualties, dependant on the successfulness of their attack
it isnt perfect though... needs more input.
[ This Message was edited by: N'kra The Wolf on 2010-08-14 12:54 ]
[ This Message was edited by: N'kra The Wolf on 2010-08-14 13:00 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-14 14:06
I like a lot of those ideas, except for reduced armor (no point if the other ideas are implemented) and removing beacons. It actually fits my own ideas about Kluth pretty well, but mine are bit more complicated and thus impossible.
My biggest concern is that making them better at "hit" and worse at "run" will further promote planet hugging by humans and deep space lurking by Kluth, since moving in on hugging enemies would be a suicide run if Kluth don't think they can get away, and humans will know that and use it. It's bad enough as it is that humans hug and Kluth lurk this much, but it's totally understandable since that's where the advantage is for them vs the enemy. We can't encourage that even more.
To properly balance Kluth would be to remake them from the ground up, and probably other parts of the game. It has to be done in a way that does not encourage humans to hug their planets while Kluth are around, and does not encourage Kluth to sit in deep space and wait for humans to break off when they're hugging, or lurk at gates picking off stragglers.
How to accomplish that without dismantling everything we know about DS is beyond me.
Pakhos makes an excellent point that numbers play a huge part.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-14 18:05
numbers do play a huge part, and im actually generally against the way things stack right now. it gives large fleets versus small fleets a much greater advantage than they should really have. i wouldnt mind seeing ECCM stack per ship using it rather than per ECCM used in a space, e.g. the 5 ECCM on a sensor frigate stack but the other ECCM used by a scout nearby doesnt add to that max.
i do also take note that numbers play a bigger role in this game than they do in others. e.g. in a game like Tribes or Modern Warfare or TF2, you can beat a larger group of people through luck or skill or a combination thereof, or by taking advantage of the very fact of them grouping together tightly. there isnt really something like that here.
idea to float around: a device similar to a "grenade" for each faction? cannot be fired directly at an enemy ship, but can be ctrl fired into a region of space and manually detonated with a severe AOE attribute, either damage or systems damage or energy drain or sensor blindness or something. having all your targetting data stop working would be kinda cool actually =P
@ sparkles, as for the 2 suggestions you take issue with:
beacons are out because i wanted running to be difficult but possible, being able to tag someone kind of makes it ridiculously hard.
armour along similar reasons: if youre upping their attack strength armour needs to go down a bit. and as mentioned by a previous kluth player, armour makes them "killdozers" =S =P
also, on hit versus run:
could we balance the game in the other way? with ships that suck at hit but are excellent at run?
OR, how about this: give kluth both? some ships that absolutely rock at hitting hard but are vulnerable while running, and some that are not very good at hitting but excellent runners. this would fit well into the general setup of ship classes as they exist, dessies versus dreads etc. wed just need to tinker with ship systems and special gadgets to excentuate each set of attributes for each ship class.
e.g. the prior suggestions for dreads generally, but add things like this:
- class 1 cloak (destroyers and down): weapons on # second timer, JD available instantly. better able to compensate for damage
- class 2 cloak (cruisers and up): weapons available instantly, JD on # second timer. difficulty compensating for damage
- class 1 armour (destroyers and down): higher base value but lower recharge rate
- class 2 armour (cruisers and up): mediocre base value but high recharge rate
etc. as is needed with other devices.
then kluth have the same kinds of tactical choices the other factions have, but instead of "missiles or torps? dessies or dreads?" its "speed or firepower?" im also not opposed to having these 2 classes of cloak locked to certain vessels in all ship classes, so having a dread thats better at running than hitting for instance (which would fit well with ganglia, as an example). but i dont think youd want them to be interchangeable.
[ This Message was edited by: N'kra The Wolf on 2010-08-14 18:10 ]
[ This Message was edited by: N'kra The Wolf on 2010-08-14 18:13 ]
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-08-15 02:05
Noithing personal to those involved in your experiment, but your data is flawed.
I played vs PB as ICC. They werent what I would call effective.
At no time as Kluth, when I was on, did Raven face hardly one real compatent enemy force. Not one, that I saw, that utilized the tactics that threaten K'Luth. Not one that effectively used dictor/scout/ad ships to hunt with. I never even saw them out numbered, ffs.
Maybe I missed this uber display of tactics in the face of a good enemy, but dont think so.
I just think PB make better Kluth, and suck as ICC. I think Raven make decent ICC, and I wasnt impressed with their "humany luth" tactics.
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