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Kluth from the eyes of Ravens |
Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
|  Posted: 2010-08-17 12:08
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On 2010-08-12 12:28, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
on kluth if someone didnt like me they actively undermined teamwork and command, and did not follow the fleet anywhere.
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No names were mensioned but I know when I get singled out.
Just wanted to say in my defence on this one that you were not very friendly to start with and I didn't feel like becoming your minion lol ^^
Just a tip for future gaming experience. Not everyone enjoys spawning in a game to find some randomer yelling orders to either "get here and do as I say or get the hell out of this server because no one wants you here otherwise" crossed with "i'll report you for being a nuisance" because I joked saying "hey everyone, press SD for laughs".
Were you expecting everyone to bend over backwards at your commands? Not sure how ICC do it, but if thats common practice over on ICC then no wonder ICC looked a little low on numbers.
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stations: didnt personally fly one, but a kluth player brought out a hive that he claimed he could solo anything but a line station in.
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Ok, I have to agree on this point considering it was me who said that. I wasn't fond of using stations because I always assumed they were slow flying large coffins. I mean I cannot remember a time when I saw a solo or dual station group that didn't end up being mashed in some way or shape because they are too big to avoid being hit. That being said the Hive is somthing different.
I haven't had the oppotunity to try out the other classes of stations yet due to rank but I must say when it comes to the Hive (and i'm sure UGTO stations too) you can make it survive more damage than it really should.
For example: Put pure Chitenous armour on a hive with 8x Advanced Defense Upgrades and just sit there turning around on the spot slowly. If you get close to it then it'll shoot you and run out of energy a bit (honestly who cares about energy in a Hive though?) and if you stay up to 800gu then it will shell you with SI.
I guarrentee you that short of sending in a Line station with some upgrades that Hive will just keep taking damage and smile back at you while reloading and firing more infinate SI torps.
I've lost my hive twice. The first was a voluntary suicide mission that resulted in a self destruct over a SS and a LS in the middle of a highly defended and populated cluster of ICC and the 2nd time was a freak of the game where I suddenly went from having 28% hull to 0% in the space of half a second instead of naturally soaking up some of that damage (not having the AHR hurts hull somewhat) and jumping off.
This feels like a betrayal to me but what the hell. K'luth ships need to be checked and redesigned in terms of their modules and weapon systems.
The best example is the Scarab.
To those who do not use K'luth often you will recognise the Scarab as the mine laying cruiser who just instakilled you as you ran away from battle through the jump gate or jumped after someone in a destroyer only to die when you get close to the hostile. 2 scarabs can take down pretty much anything if the pilots are clever enough before you can take down either one of those two scarabs. They are entirely and totally overpowered BEFORE you give them damage enhancements.
The Mandible isn't an issue really because the energy issues it suffers tend to outweigh any problems with the configuration.
The Krill is a EAD on steroids to be honest. If you put what was said earlier about K'luth being able to cloak/recloak and warp off faster than anything while recharging armour while cloaked then add in the firepower that a Krill can dish out you suddenly have a rather OP ship. I don't care what luth players say, the Krill is more powerful than the luth combat station variation.
Scale: People use the scale because they cannot use a dread or they got bored of being slow. No one bothers to use the scale because it's a fun ship or it is tactical. Cruisers should play a part in all races as the backbone of the fleet and not dreads but considering the OP scarab and mandible is just above Scale rank you don't really need to bother.
Smaller luth ships: In a confrontation between frigates and frigates luth are more or less balanced, they aren't very tough but they dish out decent damage, when it comes to destroyers all they are is glorified armoured frigates. They don't really serve a purpose other than to fill the ranks between frigate and cruiser/dread.
Thats my view anyway ^^
[ This Message was edited by: Okkam's Razor on 2010-08-17 12:24 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-17 17:37
wasnt just you okkam, few others. and again i think that was just a bad start =P but thanks for your input! <3
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-17 19:24
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On 2010-08-17 08:01, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
i just brought up SI to get conversation rolling again. guess people would rather get all defensive.
might as well lock thread nothings getting done anymore.
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Then bring up something more pertinent. 
Cos it's kinda random seeing as how the SI is not the main point of your concern abt K'luth. 
How about we talk about removing Extractors from Kluth. 
What could we replace them with? Hmmm... Another dread?
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-17 20:31
Remove Extractors and replace with kamikaze cruisers. No weapons, no armor, just a cloak and engines. You fly up to things and SD on them. The sound effect would be the Nelson "ha-ha" laugh from Simpsons.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-17 23:23
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On 2010-08-17 12:08, Okkam's Razor wrote:
The best example is the Scarab.
To those who do not use K'luth often you will recognise the Scarab as the mine laying cruiser who just instakilled you as you ran away from battle through the jump gate or jumped after someone in a destroyer only to die when you get close to the hostile. 2 scarabs can take down pretty much anything if the pilots are clever enough before you can take down either one of those two scarabs. They are entirely and totally overpowered BEFORE you give them damage enhancements.
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Ahhh... this is true only if said pilot knows how to use the Scarab.
Otherwise, nub Scarab drivers will be laying mines all around that everybody will be able to see and avoid..... or in the case of ICC, to pulse and detonate (on the poor sod Scab pilot too, if he is that dumb to remain still and lay eggs )
So if you think that it is OP'ed, it's prob because the pilot knows what to do with it. 
Other than its mines, the Scab is equipped with a few 'ruptors, PSIs, and torps. Hardly what I'd considered OP.
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Mint Ice Cream[+R]
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 05, 2009
Posts: 43
| Posted: 2010-08-17 23:52
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On 2010-08-17 01:01, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
500gu range beams that:
- drains the same energy as SIs
- no falloff
- Do the max damage stat of SIs consistently.
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at 600 gu my krill SI missed a full speed AD passing me o.o which will never happen to CD or BD
argeed that krill damage output is better than CD and BD but u also gotta thing about the hit rate of SI compare to icc's rail gun and ugto ...(i forgot the name :|)
anyway krill is completely useless again cruisers in mid range combat and completely useless again everything smaller in close range combat(close range=100-300 gu not less than 100 gu!)while CD and BD can scare them ._.(i want a luth normal projective dread)
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-18 03:18
mm i dunno. SI depends on angle: with siphons 4 SI i was doing a really nasty job on a HC, wouldnt even want to know what a krill did.
SI is pertinent because luth are not meant to have good range, thats ICCs dealio, you might recall =P SI has 800 range or so? so Krill is like an AD with SI instead of fusion torpedoes?
@ scarab: well yes, ANYTHING flown by a noob is useless, and anything flown by a pro can be deadly =P the point is that scarab can be more deadly than one would expect. dont quite get why minelayers are being used as offensive weapons.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-18 05:30
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On 2010-08-18 03:18, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
mm i dunno. SI depends on angle: with siphons 4 SI i was doing a really nasty job on a HC, wouldnt even want to know what a krill did.
SI is pertinent because luth are not meant to have good range, thats ICCs dealio, you might recall =P SI has 800 range or so? so Krill is like an AD with SI instead of fusion torpedoes?
@ scarab: well yes, ANYTHING flown by a noob is useless, and anything flown by a pro can be deadly =P the point is that scarab can be more deadly than one would expect. dont quite get why minelayers are being used as offensive weapons.
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Seriously Lark. Is the point of this whole thing for you to range nerf the Kluth to the point that they're using melee weapons?
OK then. What, in your opinion, would be a good range for the SI?
BTW, the ICC minelayer dess can also be used offensively in the heat of battle. Just cross the path of any dread or station that's busy shooting at someone else and drop 'em eggs. Basically that's how a Scarab operates offensively. There's no secret to that.
Also, regarding gate mining, well any faction can do that. It's no secret. If you're battling near a gate, the most logical insta-escape for any damaged vessel would be to point his nose at the gate and jump for life.So.... plant a huge field of mines on the other side to catch damaged ships that are escaping. It usually means instant death for almost any ship that hits 3 salvoes of mines on the other side. Is that offensive? Nah. It's call entrapment. Which is what mining is all about. It's tactic.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-08-18 05:48 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-18 09:24
gate mining: defensive tactic. hadnt realized people were desperate enough for kills to do it to retreating players though. thanks for the heads up.
an increased drop off to SI damage over range would probably be a good idea. again, kluth are not a long range faction: go check out the range of your torps and beams for me if you dont believe me, maybe youll get that im not asking for "nerfing" of any real sort, just that you dont have ships that are wildly outside of your faction design. the krill isnt really an issue since its slated to get a total rework anyways. i was still sincerely surprised by the damage just the 4 SI on the siphon were doing though.
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2010-08-18 09:26
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On 2010-08-17 23:23, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Ahhh... this is true only if said pilot knows how to use the Scarab.
Otherwise, nub Scarab drivers will be laying mines all around that everybody will be able to see and avoid..... or in the case of ICC, to pulse and detonate (on the poor sod Scab pilot too, if he is that dumb to remain still and lay eggs )
So if you think that it is OP'ed, it's prob because the pilot knows what to do with it.
Other than its mines, the Scab is equipped with a few 'ruptors, PSIs, and torps. Hardly what I'd considered OP.
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Ah yes, I forgot about that. Many a time have I completely given up even trying to use the scarab around ICC fleets because they destroy my mines before I can get out of range lol.
That being said I do believe K'luth needs a re-work, but I doubt it is as simple and finding a single issue and I doubt it is as simple as the odd weapon layout.
K'luth weapons are really short range and energy consuming, SIs are shorter range than the human fleet equivelent and psi cannons are more or less useless.
Cloaking should have some sort of cooldown because in all honesty a decent player can organise his energy reserves so they don't fail.
That being said, k'luth might be underpowered if a lengthy cooldown is put into their fleet, it isn't as if K'luth are known for their tough armour or durability but they are known for running away to repair and coming back. You might have to give K'luth some sort of benefit if you want to also issue a drawback.
One last thing, comparing K'luth ships to human ships is a bit off when you truely think about it due to the design of both human and K'luth ships.
K'luth ships have exactly what they need to get the job done and maybe a couple of useless psicannons whereas human ships have the odd missle and PD battery at silly angles which when you think about it, firing 1 maybe 2 missles from a gunboat is moronic. You will hardly find that in a luth ship because our guns make up for the failings of our projectiles.
Just name a human dread and see the redundant fittings on it, the odd useless missle/fighter.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-08-18 09:40
I see on one post, that K'Luth is abusive for using beams up close a lot. I see how others think we need range cut down even more.
Can we get more confusing?
I'm no expert or anything, but I think that having played the K'Luth for 6 years I can claim to know something about them. I'll offer a few thoughts, if you don't mind.
K'Luth, as any other faction, do need SOME range. Otherwise, sitting at a planet is a total safe haven for humans. We also have to see some tweaks done with the ew packages, especially on larger ships. In fleets of large ships, K'Luth will just avoid them because of the eccm they can use.
Most K'Luth prefer, and would like better chances at, attacking up close. That doesn't mean that up close is the only thing they should be able to do. It just means they should do it best.
Hit and run faction denotes:
- Small, agile, fast ships.
- Weaker armor, but slightly stronger weaponry.
- Ability to reasonably fade away from combat to regroup.
- An attack force that is heaviest in close combat, with decent ranged support.
Looking at our weapon ranges:
There isnt anything spectacular about the SI. You think it's uber compared to the Ion and QST. Keep in mind what those do when they connect on us. They rip the snot out of any flank they hit. The core weapons seem pretty dad gum balanced to me. If anything, I could see tweaking the range down on qst a small amount, but ion seems pretty good on distance and damage. At 800ish they are the only thing a Krill or Siphon will be firing. They aren't spamming cannons galore, like the other factions.
Our cannons, of which no ship larger than a dessie has many ( I think more than 4, except the Ganglia), are really just place holders. They aren't even seriously considered by most luth, as far as I can tell. The one exception is the Ganglia, but frankly, if you're close enough to use cannons in a gang, you either better have some nice help or you are just stupid.
Torps fire from farther out than our beams, yet they suck the energy out like a vampire in heat, and the payoff is most of the time nothing. You have to be close up for them to hit even a station that is moving. A moving target almost has to run into them for them to hit from available range.
That leaves beams and missles.
Should beams be nerfed in closer more? I don't see why. 200ish for the small flashlites, 450ish for the hi-beams. Closer in a K'Luth is to the enemy, realistically, the worse for him. Beams on 'Luth = no falloff. Human beams do more damage the closer they are. But truly our beam distance seems just fine. Im trading serious licks when I use them, for sure.
So then. Missiles.
Really. Should I bother? They are missiles. The only ship that can really efficiently use them is the gang. I can think of 5 people that might have a gang in their garage. They are under-used, in a way, but not really. If a gang is needed, I'll be in a gang. I dont see the support needed most of the time for more than 1, if that. And missile distance is really nothing grand. I think I get 1400 with 7 weapon range buffs. That's well inside the range of visibility (for being point jumped) and mssiles range of the enemy. And the enemy spams WAY more.
So I dont see how/where/why we should be pushed in closer.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-18 09:51
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On 2010-08-18 09:24, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
gate mining: defensive tactic. hadnt realized people were desperate enough for kills to do it to retreating players though. thanks for the heads up.
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LOL. Now you're gonna cry foul about "dirty", "cheap" or "dishonorable" tactics??
Okaaaaaay.....
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On 2010-08-18 09:24, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
an increased drop off to SI damage over range would probably be a good idea. again, kluth are not a long range faction: go check out the range of your torps and beams for me if you dont believe me, maybe youll get that im not asking for "nerfing" of any real sort, just that you dont have ships that are wildly outside of your faction design. the krill isnt really an issue since its slated to get a total rework anyways. i was still sincerely surprised by the damage just the 4 SI on the siphon were doing though.
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You still haven't answered the question. What would be a good SI range?
C'mon Lark. Start making some sense. You don't have to follow the description to a T. Core weapons have always been each faction's most powerful weapons, in damage and range. The SIs still has less range than the IC or QSTs.
Now you say the Krill isn't an issue, and that you're suprised by the damage a Siphon can do.
tsk tsk
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-08-18 09:54 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-18 10:01
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On 2010-08-18 09:26, Okkam's Razor wrote:
That being said I do believe K'luth needs a re-work, but I doubt it is as simple and finding a single issue and I doubt it is as simple as the odd weapon layout.
K'luth weapons are really short range and energy consuming, SIs are shorter range than the human fleet equivelent and psi cannons are more or less useless.
Cloaking should have some sort of cooldown because in all honesty a decent player can organise his energy reserves so they don't fail.
That being said, k'luth might be underpowered if a lengthy cooldown is put into their fleet, it isn't as if K'luth are known for their tough armour or durability but they are known for running away to repair and coming back. You might have to give K'luth some sort of benefit if you want to also issue a drawback.
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I won't argue with that. You want to put a short cooldown timer, I don't think it'll be much of a problem because most Kluths would decloak and attack for at least 2 or 3 strikes before he cloaks and run. More so, perhaps if it was a dread.
But, as you said... take away something.... give back something. You can put a cooldown timer, how about making cloak harder to penetrate in return?
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On 2010-08-18 09:26, Okkam's Razor wrote:
One last thing, comparing K'luth ships to human ships is a bit off when you truely think about it due to the design of both human and K'luth ships.
K'luth ships have exactly what they need to get the job done and maybe a couple of useless psicannons whereas human ships have the odd missle and PD battery at silly angles which when you think about it, firing 1 maybe 2 missles from a gunboat is moronic. You will hardly find that in a luth ship because our guns make up for the failings of our projectiles.
Just name a human dread and see the redundant fittings on it, the odd useless missle/fighter.
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Let's see. The usual stuff you'll see on a Kluth ship are:
Plasma/PSI cannons - As you said... useless mostly.
Ruptors - Really energy draining and good only at close range, where you'll be pound by QSTs, ICs, PCs, railguns, not to mention, CLs.
AM Torps - We don't even need their range. With their speed.... you're better off launching them point blank... which will expose you to the abovementioned human weaps.
Missiles - Uh yeah... missiles on Kluth....
So the really powerful stuff is basically the SI. And Larky now wants to cut it down to size.
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2010-08-18 15:44
i dont really speak often so i am always hoping that people listen when i do so here is my 2 cents.
First off im heart broken that i didnt get the chance to take part in this venture because my comp melted and it took toshiba 2 months to decide they couldnt fix it and send me a new one. T_T
this game boils down to, at the bare bones, who can get more friends to act in an "ORGANIZED" fashion to go and stomp on someone else and their friends. So i think that this could be the way to help some of the "Balance issues". each ship should help the fleet with a bonus that extends to all the other friendly ships within sight, 5k gu i believe. If not that you could play it off the new grouping system and have the bonus apply to people in your group. If you feel the need you can also play with fall offs and things like that. ships could lend help with EW's and make pining more effective or more efficient, or help with repairs or damage or anything else you want. furthermore you could work in a leveling system where dreads give a better damage bonus, scouts give a better EW bonus.
the game should reward teamwork and even if you arent in a siphon or ead or ad shelling out the major damage your helping the team just by being alive in the ship that you are flying. we really need to start playing up the community aspect of the game and make sure that the newer players are integrating into it because that is a big part of what keeps people coming back here instead of those other games where you are just some nobody that no one will ever get to know.
for humans you can work in some counters for cloaks to satisfy those who find issue with it currently, for kluth you can collectivly strenthen cloak or energy consumption.
It adds a whole new level of tactics to what ship to pull when and how many people can you rally to your cause.
regarding the idea of k'luth not having any ability at medium or long ranges is kind of rediculus if you think of it logicaly.
If you are an alien race trying to make a place for your self in this part of the galaxy and you enemies are sniping you, your going to start thinking of some way to get them. dont get me wrong they shouldnt be killing things left and right at range but they should at least be able to take out an arc or two before they are hulled and have to bail.
on that note I would love to see psi cannons get reworked although ill trust the devs to work that out i also believe that kluth missles could use some work.
when you are flying around getting pounded by human cannons and your going pew pew hahaha boom it starts to take its toll on morale.
P.S. always think good and hard about what you write before you hit that submit button
[ This Message was edited by: Scorched Soul on 2010-08-18 15:54 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-18 18:55
"and you enemies are sniping you"
not possible because of cloak.
@kenny: so, we're starting with the premise, backed up by experience from ICC players playing kluth and quite a few kluth players, that something about kluth gives them an advantage over the other factions, and you want us to take away AND give something? so... keep the status quo but in a different way?
im not quite sure youve caught on to what were talking about =P
i do want to take away some things and give others, but not in a manner that just gets us back to square 1. i think the game is fundamentally imbalanced, and this discussion isnt or has it ever been about "nerfing" kluth (i want my gameplay to be fun, not sickeningly easy, which btw is something i experienced on kluth!). i certainly understand your perspective: someone is saying my faction is OP, or it looks like it, so i should defend it; but thats wrong. you shouldnt care about just your faction, you should care about this wonderful game instead. if i put ICC above DS i wouldnt have proposed the switch, it wouldnt have made sense for me to. many PB think they "won" somehow by getting me to take over ICC space or whatever, but all i was trying to do was demonstrate that there was something seriously wrong with the GAME that i love but that i still have a lot of trouble finding myself really WANTING to play because of those things that are still seriously wrong. i do believe i succeeded.
why bring up SI? because a siphon using SI could snipe down a HC from 800gu which is sort of stupid. i think we did a good job addressing cloak so far and had some constructive comments so im moving to other more minor issues while generally trying to get conversation going. what would YOU like to talk about, if not SI? what do you think is wrong with kluth? since you seem to have an issue with literally every word that comes out of my mouth, you go ahead and pick a subject.
[ This Message was edited by: N'kra The Wolf on 2010-08-18 19:03 ]
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