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Kluth from the eyes of Ravens |
Wild Cat
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 109
From: The Netherlands
|  Posted: 2010-08-15 04:54
I read some of the idea/suggestion on how K'luth should be changed/balanced, but I fear many are to much of a big overhaul that tweaks to many ships and I doubt with the current ship redesign going on that will happen.
As much as I hate dealing with cloaked ships, I also like the thrill of not knowing where they are as you try to hunt or defend your self from them.
So instead of tinkering with cloak and try to balance it, what if we tweaked some thing else instead to alter game play/style.
What would be the effect on game play, if K'luth amazing self repair would work as we know it, but only when cloaked. With a very limited/minor self repair when not cloaked.
Cloak is still as powerful, but K'luth are more prone to damage (system failure) and are forced to do more hit and run (appear shoot and re-cloak) kind of tactic's
Or the other way around, their self repair works as we know it when uncloaked and with a very limited/minor self repair when the cloak.
Cloak is sill as powerful, but k'luth will require to make use of supply ships (like the other factions) to repair it self. This will force them to remain cloaked longer to repair them selfs, buying time for his foes to repair their own damaged ships.
K'luth make little use of utility ships and can pretty much field combat ships only, while the other factions has to make use of them in order to make cloaking less effective.
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Mint Ice Cream[+R]
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 05, 2009
Posts: 43
| Posted: 2010-08-15 06:38
this is solving nothing -.-!! just remove luth and make it simple 2 side war if u want a balanced game but if u want to keep luth then u gotta remember a really simple fact... there almost no way to balance 3 forces
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-15 12:07
@ azreal: i never saw you on when i was on. on 2-3 occasions i saw PB bring in various combinations of ships into kluth space. they tried AD spam which was the most effective, but still not great. i also saw people like necro flying scouts trying to tag people. they definitely used all the tactics in the book.
i also dont think we used "humany luth" tactics...?
[ This Message was edited by: N'kra The Wolf on 2010-08-15 12:08 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-08-15 16:26
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On 2010-08-15 12:07, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
on 2-3 occasions i saw PB bring in various combinations of ships into kluth space. they tried AD spam which was the most effective, but still not great.
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Thus I said, PB make suck ICC.
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i also saw people like necro flying scouts trying to tag people. they definitely used all the tactics in the book.
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I would say that having a scout a time or two does not the whole book make. Not to knock Necro's scouting, either, but had I been in the scout, and him in a dread instead, that whole affair would turn out a lot differently.
I ALMOST accuse PB of not really trying. Almost. I wonder if some had to do with a desire to not add to your tactics on how to face K'Luth.
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i also dont think we used "humany luth" tactics...?
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Hmmm. Not sure how...in depth...to respond here. I saw some things that I would say show that you have certain...misconceptions...on how we fight. Maybe you have your own ideals and were trying them out. Maybe human ship flying instincts are too hard to overcome in 2 weeks time. I dunno.
I was out there plenty enough to watch how the ICC did. I watched and analyzed PB as well. I was curious to see if Raven would bring over something new. I was curious to see if PB could do some real damage as ICC. There have been a lot of changes to ICC, and I admit, I haven't played them in over a year. I wanted to see what K'Luth could do in an AD or a CD.
Well, Raven fought like Humans in alien ships. K'Luth fought like aliens in human ships.
Did anyone really expect that much else would happen in a two week's span of time? You need more than two weeks time to really get the grasp of a faction. Instinct is what makes the difference many times, and those take a long time to hone. And dull. They can form habits that are good for one faction but bad for another.
Just sayn'.....
I do applaud the effort, tho. I tried the same a while back with UGTO.
Flew scout mostly.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-15 21:15
i spend about half my gametime in scenario, and i regularly only play kluth in scenario, or UGTO if theres no kluth. very probably some playstyle aspects came over, but im not certain thats because of the ships per se. it could simply be that i play kluth differently than others =P in the first week i definitely didnt fair too too well because i was still getting used to the various details the MV throws in, e.g. fully built clusters, enhancements, etc. but i cant say i was doing anything too dramatically different. i used the tools that were available to me to the best that i could imagine them being useful. thus sneaking entire fleets into planet clusters, taking down planets in a matter of seconds of bombing, etc.
we did also try out swarms of destroyers and cruisers to see what their capabilities were. namely we found they werent very good. this was just playtesting on our part and nothing to do with our "humany" qualities =P
in any case, i dont claim to be perfect or to be completely unbiased. i simply did my best to be unbiased and present what i found. if kluth are capable of the things i was seeing them being capable of because we flew them like human ships that doesnt really detract from that inherent potential within their design. if "flying like a kluth" makes them more or less capable then thats an entirely different issue.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-15 22:27
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On 2010-08-15 21:15, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
we did also try out swarms of destroyers and cruisers to see what their capabilities were. namely we found they werent very good. this was just playtesting on our part and nothing to do with our "humany" qualities =P
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And thus you realize that K'luth dessies aren't really good at all. This is not to say that their loadout is bad compared to human ships. It has more to do with their combat endurance.
i.e. armor and energy.
They can't take punishment the way human ships do. ICC and UGTO dessies have medium ranged weapons that allow them to keep heavier ships at bay. Mostly they're equipped with the quintessential K'luth close quarter type armament that requires them to fly up close and into the face of enemy ships, which.... most of the time will be UGTO dreads and stations, and ICC Cruisers. Their proximity to enemy heavies means, they can not last long at all.
Further to this, their beam heavy loadout ensures a high rate of drain on their energy reserve, and they'll have to break off once reserves drop below 20%, or face certain death when their cloak fails. I give the Claw about 3 to 4 alphas before it has to break off to recharge.
Don't forget weapons levelling. It really means nothing that a Kluth dessie have 6 or 7 ruptors onboard. Those flashlights couldn't even burn the Maguire's wax off a cruiser's armor, much less a dread.
Next we look at cruisers. As you observed, K'luth cruisers are more role specific. Here's a gold star to pin on your chest. 
That said, the only really useful cruisers are the Clavate and Scarab. The Parasite is hopeless, and the Scale isn't really much better. They can only combat human destroyers, really. They can't really do much damage to human cruisers unless they have numerical superiority.
The Clavate is an excellent bomber by nature of its cloak and ability to position itself at the start of a good bombing run. The Scarab.... well... I can only say that it is tricky to use, but very rewarding to do so if done right.
But even then, the Scarab is only useful when there is a big battle going on, and it can slip in and out of cloak dropping mines in the paths of enemy ships and stations while they're distracted. On its own, it can only take on destroyers or smaller vessels.
But one thing though... the Scarab is an excellent scout killer.  If you deploy scouts to beacon us, the Scarab is an excellent tool to eliminate those scouts.
So what do we have left? Dreads.
I'll say it out, and I'll say it out right here and now.
K'luth stations are EXACTLY where stations should be.
They have heavy armament and heavy armor, but they need support or they'll die relatively fast. Even 2 human dreads on a Kluth station can take it down relatively quickly.
UGTO stations are basically assault juggernauts... and ICC ones are not too far behind. Point being, they can operate on their own against a small flotilla.
Again.... what do we have left? Dreads.
The Ganglia is really next to useless. Ditto the Brood.
The Mandible is a good small ship killer, with its beam heavy complement, but will find it manifestly difficult when taking on other dreads.
The only really useful dreads are the Siphon and the Krill. To me... the Krill... the only GA dread out there with Gold Star requirement, is the K'luth's compensation for having crappy stations.
UGTO and ICC bring their BS/SS/LS tanks into play?
What do K'luths have? Hive? Nest? They're really no match for human stations.... perhaps not even a match for the dreads.
IMO, the Krill is the equalizer for a human station.
And you want to eliminate or nerf it??
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-15 22:50
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On 2010-08-15 16:26, Azreal wrote:
I ALMOST accuse PB of not really trying. Almost. I wonder if some had to do with a desire to not add to your tactics on how to face K'Luth.
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You would be partly right. We didn't really try, but that was at a later phase.
Initially we capped a number of planets. And K'luth struck back. When the rest of ICC somehow didn't defend the territory that was capped, but instead went off to find UGTO instead (I wonder why), we decided... screw that.
PB as a fleet is largely inactive. The really active members are but a fraction of the total fleet membership. I can't really speak for the rest, but I think that that's due to work and other RL matters (and for some other PBs.... EVE! LOL) . Myself, and perhaps quite a number of others were not around much these few weeks when the challenge was issued.
Raven on the other hand actively sought temporary members just to fight us.  PB did no such thing at all. We stood on our own, and mostly alone.
But on your last part.... you may be right somehow, if I recall fleet chat correctly.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-08-15 22:50 ]
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Sauur
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: November 30, 2004
Posts: 475
| Posted: 2010-08-16 00:00
All I have to say is as far as Ravens playing as K'luth - I found them all to be pleasant, keen and very capable pilots during the 2 days I actually got to play alongside them. I made a point of winging with a few of them and had no regrets - Kudos on a great fleet!
The rest of this thread I found wanting.....
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-08-16 00:46
We all know about the pros and cons of every faction, hence we believe the game has balance due to imperfection. But I think it's not there.
Let's see, Luth = strong offense, bad defense. ICC = strong defense, weak offense. Assuming strong offense + bad defense = strong defense + weak defense, which mean both ship should die if duel without jumping. However, Siphon will always lose to EAD or AD, either Mandi vs CD or BD. In general, KLuth is not as strong as human. So they must cloak and patiently wait, that's all.
Actually, Luth doesnt need cloak device if they're as strong as they need to be. Yes, I'm referring to MI.
However, I hope new dreads layout may give the game better balance.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2010-08-16 00:47 ]
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Mint Ice Cream[+R]
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 05, 2009
Posts: 43
| Posted: 2010-08-16 01:09
luth don't have a weak defense... it have a super weak defense so it is strong off+super weak def+cloak faction
strong off+super weak def is worse than weak off+strong def(icc) and balanced in both(ugto)(that why siphon never win again EAD or AD in no jump no cloak duel) but strong off+super weak def+cloak is better than both icc and ugto(this is why luth usually win in no jump cloak available duel)
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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2010-08-16 01:47
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On 2010-08-15 22:27, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
The Ganglia is really next to useless. Ditto the Brood.
The Mandible is a good small ship killer, with its beam heavy complement, but will find it manifestly difficult when taking on other dreads.
The only really useful dreads are the Siphon and the Krill. To me... the Krill... the only GA dread out there with Gold Star requirement, is the K'luth's compensation for having crappy stations.
UGTO and ICC bring their BS/SS/LS tanks into play?
What do K'luths have? Hive? Nest? They're really no match for human stations.... perhaps not even a match for the dreads.
IMO, the Krill is the equalizer for a human station.
And you want to eliminate or nerf it??
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Actually kenny the ganglia is a great ship probably the the single best defensive ship in the kluth arsenal. Any time forexample ugto attack kluth absolutly the best thing to use is the ganglia. Me and az could hold of a ugto station spam with just 2 gangs. Its a great ship shouldnt be underestiated. Now if you compare it to the icc missle dread of course its lacking but for what the ganglia does its amazing. Personally its one of the 3 ships i will not delete from my garage
the mandible is a great ship also people dont use it becuse it doesnt have the projectiles of a siphon or krill. People miss the true strength in the mandible as its a beam ship. All true enh setups will do something to improve its assault disrupters. Mandible can be as lethel as any other if used right. People get cought up in saying this dread sux that ship sux. When truely everyship hs a role if played in this role the right way they are great. The combat dread and the missle dread for example are absolutly terrible if you dont use them like they were designed to be used. Otherwise they are great ship just noobs complain how they cant go into combat v asault dread type dread. However if you take the same 2 ships and put them at range they excell very well.
On to the other kluth dreads. Krill actually isnt the station equilizer. The siphon has earned the title of station killer as the highest damage assault dread in the game. Multiple siphons will kill any station regardless of enhancement. Possibly the truely greatest ship in the kluth arsenal
The krill has unfortunatly been so over hyped its rediculous. The krill is not some uber ship. Contrary to belief the siphon will outdamage a krill(Siphon 4 si 7 am torps v krill 6 si). The only thing the krill does is it has good medium range. It also have good side and a rear arc so its a good at fighting dreads. All those people who say the krill is so op is a noob and hasnt flown one. The krill has been nerfed to the point its shell of what it used to be and is only used now becuse its medium ranged range core weapons. Also the fact the ship is the only GA ship in the game that also requires both gold and the bronze privateer badges to use. In the end people are mad when they get killed by a krill. When a siphon decloaking behind you is worse.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-16 02:25
So the issue with the Krill is that because it can fight at medium range just like human dreads?
Maybe it's time ICC players ask for a buff on their ships, instead of asking to nerf or pull down other faction ships. You already received Def mode shields, which honestly works really nicely.
Suggest something constructive to add to your own faction, instead of negative comments on other factions.
As someone just posted regarding the strong offense vs weak defense, etc etc...
Perhaps the Devs should relook the factional layouts.
Kluth should have strong offense vs weak defense.
They already have powerful weapons + cloak, and weak armor.
The skew of balance lies in the UGTO/ICC.
The UGTO are supposed to be the good all rounders, and the ICC... weaker offense, but good defense. If we go by this mantra or principle, the ICC should actually have better durability than the UGTO.
(And no... I'm not suggesting nerfing UGTO at all)
Currently the UGTO ships have the best durability. Strongest armor. Leave it at that.
I propose that ICC ships armor should be strengthened to be equivalent to UGTO armor.... and THEN adding their current shields on top. Effectively giving them up to 150% of UGTO's durability.
This should bring them in line to be the defensive faction, exactly as the original DS description of ICC.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-08-16 02:31 ]
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2010-08-16 04:00
In all honesty, the ships are fine.
What is required to take out K'Luth because of their cloak is still the issue.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-08-16 08:35
Quote:
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On 2010-08-16 02:25, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
So the issue with the Krill is that because it can fight at medium range just like human dreads?
Maybe it's time ICC players ask for a buff on their ships, instead of asking to nerf or pull down other faction ships. You already received Def mode shields, which honestly works really nicely.
Suggest something constructive to add to your own faction, instead of negative comments on other factions.
As someone just posted regarding the strong offense vs weak defense, etc etc...
Perhaps the Devs should relook the factional layouts.
Kluth should have strong offense vs weak defense.
They already have powerful weapons + cloak, and weak armor.
The skew of balance lies in the UGTO/ICC.
The UGTO are supposed to be the good all rounders, and the ICC... weaker offense, but good defense. If we go by this mantra or principle, the ICC should actually have better durability than the UGTO.
(And no... I'm not suggesting nerfing UGTO at all)
Currently the UGTO ships have the best durability. Strongest armor. Leave it at that.
I propose that ICC ships armor should be strengthened to be equivalent to UGTO armor.... and THEN adding their current shields on top. Effectively giving them up to 150% of UGTO's durability.
This should bring them in line to be the defensive faction, exactly as the original DS description of ICC.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-08-16 02:31 ]
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this does make sense, when ya look at it.
if we are the defence faction we cant stand up to much, we just by our selves a lil more time to pew by cycling shields and then shifting positiong for armour. nit easy when ur primarily running ^^
oh yeah Necro... CD is awesome, i love it and will deeply appreciate its buff when dreads are updated.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-16 10:27
In my admittedly rather limited experience with kluth ships in scenario, I have fun flying a Scale, and as far as Destroyers.....why does nobody use the Shell? A small midrange cannon/torpedo ship that has decent firepower and can cloak? The Frigates and Scouts are nigh invincible with cloak, especially the Scouts since they're so hard to hit to begin with. If someone kills you then it's almost assuredly your own fault for getting close enough for them to hit you.
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On 2010-08-16 02:25, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
So the issue with the Krill is that because it can fight at medium range just like human dreads?
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It's not so much that it CAN fight from mid range, more that it does it better than a CD/BD. Compare damage output from 500-600 GU between a Krill and a Battle Dread or Combat Dread, a Krill can do more damage than either of them, does this sound right to you? The rest of the kluth DNs seem fine for faction balance.
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Maybe it's time ICC players ask for a buff on their ships, instead of asking to nerf or pull down other faction ships. You already received Def mode shields, which honestly works really nicely.
Suggest something constructive to add to your own faction, instead of negative comments on other factions.
As someone just posted regarding the strong offense vs weak defense, etc etc...
Perhaps the Devs should relook the factional layouts.
Kluth should have strong offense vs weak defense.
They already have powerful weapons + cloak, and weak armor.
The skew of balance lies in the UGTO/ICC.
The UGTO are supposed to be the good all rounders, and the ICC... weaker offense, but good defense. If we go by this mantra or principle, the ICC should actually have better durability than the UGTO.
(And no... I'm not suggesting nerfing UGTO at all)
Currently the UGTO ships have the best durability. Strongest armor. Leave it at that.
I propose that ICC ships armor should be strengthened to be equivalent to UGTO armor.... and THEN adding their current shields on top. Effectively giving them up to 150% of UGTO's durability.
This should bring them in line to be the defensive faction, exactly as the original DS description of ICC.
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ICC players have been asking for some kind of defensive buff, we got defense mode which is nice for between battle repairs like it was designed for but doesn't do much of anything for mid battle endurance, because if you use it for very long you run out of energy and can't fire. Sure it's nice for buying a couple seconds to plot a manual jump instead of using ejump. If anything shields should be strengthened, give them more resistances, faster recharge, lower energy use, something. If ICC armor is buffed to UGTO armor strength with shields ontop of it then everyone will start complaining that ICC is too hard to kill while using repair drone spam, and shields will become an afterthought.
The strength of UGTO armor isn't really the issue, it's more that if you put a handful of drones on a UGTO ship it becomes essentially invincible unless it gets focus fired on by an entire fleet. ICC can't do this because armor is weak and shields can't be repaired by drones.
But yes, ICC defenses need some help. We already have the weak offense part, especially with limited cannon ammo requiring us to drag supply ships (which almost always get ganked by kluth even if we're fighting UGTO) or support stations with us anytime we want to attack someone else so we don't run out of ammo. This being a large part of why ICC doesn't go on the offensive as often, not many people want to fly a supply ship because of how easily they die, and several people who can use a support station ignore the "support" aspect of it and just use it as a missile platform even when they have people asking them for reloads. I've been in battles where we had 3 support stations and only one of them was bothering to reload ammo for people, the others were off doing their own thing and spamming missiles.....which begs the question of why didn't they just use a MD and do a better job of it?
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