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Sitting on Stations |
Whiterin Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2007 Posts: 146
| Posted: 2012-10-08 22:07  
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On 2012-10-08 10:48, rykros1987 wrote:
This issue goes even further then just stat sitting.
I found out earlier that there was a way to hide things like supply ships under a stats outer part of their dome.
Now from what I observed nothing could hit me while I was in the stat short of a ship explosion. 2 Kluth parasites tried to beam me focus fire wise while approaching pokeyourwaffle. They didnt even dent my side armor at all and i'm a heavy supply ship. They did hurt waffle though which suggests that the beams get absorbed.
This means that not even beams can hit you if you hide inside a stat in a defensive position against say a kluth assault.
Can you imagine people taking 1 stat/3 suppliers per stat and piling up on the enhanced repair rates? How rediculous would that be? I don't know for sure on exactly what the repair rate would be but it sounds like it would be rediculous. Coupling that with the concept of hiding in the stat for invulnerability is insane.
Also what if bigger ships like carriers or dreads can fit under there? I don't know as I don't have the badges to try but it makes it clearly evident that if even some ships can be immune to incoming fire while camping a station then its a problem.
[ This Message was edited by: rykros1987 on 2012-10-08 10:53 ]
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Protecting friendly small and damaged ships is part of the purpose of a station. The issue comes when the enemy uses that mechanic to protect themselves from the ships around the station while being able to fire back relatively unharmed.
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Died~2000~Deaths[+R]*CC* Chief Marshal Army Of Darkness
Joined: February 08, 2010 Posts: 540 From: Spokane WA.
| Posted: 2012-10-08 22:21  
I used to not sit on stats but when i do i drink Dos Equis. But when i grab a stat and ppl start sitting on me then i return the favor. I dont like it much think it's a cowardly way of fighting but realy what can we do about it? So if you sit on me i'll smash space bar till im dead lol. and yes i know i get spalash damage but so does the other guy.
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Fattierob Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003 Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2012-10-09 08:39  
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On 2012-10-08 22:07, Whiterin wrote:
Protecting friendly small and damaged ships is part of the purpose of a station. The issue comes when the enemy uses that mechanic to protect themselves from the ships around the station while being able to fire back relatively unharmed.
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I think i'll chime in now since we have seemed to to boil the issue down to something coherent and a legitimate complaint. We've always had this "issue" but it's always been kind of a bad idea to sit on top of a station since, normally, the station can out DPS and out tank you. I don't know what's really changing this (and i'm not going to read through six pages of "no u r wong i m rite") since last time I checked stations were pretty good at the whole "stand still and deal tons of damage to targets at point blank range" thing.
Food for thought: A small AOE field (smaller or equal to the radius of the Station so it would only effect ships "in" the Stations hitbox) that only effects enemies that gives -50% weapon reload time or -50% weapon damage.
But that seems to be a bandaid for a more legitimate issue that we're looking into: Hitboxes and why they are so wonky
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Zero28 Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006 Posts: 591
| Posted: 2012-10-09 09:21  
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On 2012-10-09 08:39, Fattierob wrote:
I think i'll chime in now since we have seemed to to boil the issue down to something coherent and a legitimate complaint. We've always had this "issue" but it's always been kind of a bad idea to sit on top of a station since, normally, the station can out DPS and out tank you. I don't know what's really changing this (and i'm not going to read through six pages of "no u r wong i m rite") since last time I checked stations were pretty good at the whole "stand still and deal tons of damage to targets at point blank range" thing.
Food for thought: A small AOE field (smaller or equal to the radius of the Station so it would only effect ships "in" the Stations hitbox) that only effects enemies that gives -50% weapon reload time or -50% weapon damage.
But that seems to be a bandaid for a more legitimate issue that we're looking into: Hitboxes and why they are so wonky
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Stations dont have the same weapons as a while back
SS only weapons up close is its few beams and cores. Missiles are really useless ( and ICC SS got the lauch path blocked unlike UGTO SS)
LS/BS is same but have bit more of both. DO they really out DPS assault type dreads? id have to say, im not so sure anymore...
_________________ 19:33:51 [ZION]GothThug {C?}: "Zero..you are DS's hero"
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Fattierob Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003 Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2012-10-09 09:46  
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On 2012-10-09 09:21, Zero28[Helper] wrote:
SS only weapons up close is its few beams and cores.
LS/BS is same but have bit more of both.
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There's your problem. Beams and Core Weapons do not scale off of gadget level. Meaning that a scout with a Heavy CL does the same damage as a Dread with a Heavy CL does the same damage as a Station with a Heavy CL.
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P2. Marshal *Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: December 08, 2005 Posts: 140 From: Bahia Blanca, Buenos Aires, Argentina
| Posted: 2012-10-09 10:40  
I still remember the times when the cloacking device Kluth existed because their ships were weak and with little energy.
Now they have powerful weapons, and quick repair.
I propose to remove the device, that way all factions are in the same conditions.
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Zero28 Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006 Posts: 591
| Posted: 2012-10-09 11:02  
P2, thats totally way out of topic
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On 2012-10-09 09:46, Fattierob wrote:
There's your problem. Beams and Core Weapons do not scale off of gadget level. Meaning that a scout with a Heavy CL does the same damage as a Dread with a Heavy CL does the same damage as a Station with a Heavy CL.
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so... Is it an in game problem. or is it a problem in what i said XD
(Sorry, kinda slow this morning -_-)
_________________ 19:33:51 [ZION]GothThug {C?}: "Zero..you are DS's hero"
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-xTc- ExisT Chief Marshal Army Of Darkness
Joined: March 20, 2010 Posts: 534 From: Red Lobster
| Posted: 2012-10-09 11:08  
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On 2012-10-09 10:40, P2. wrote:
I still remember the times when the cloacking device Kluth existed because their ships were weak and with little energy.
Now they have powerful weapons, and quick repair.
I propose to remove the device, that way all factions are in the same conditions.
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lol? troll?
_________________ *Connection lost, attempting reconnect in 30 seconds....
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Hyperforce Grand Admiral K'Luth Revolution
Joined: January 25, 2009 Posts: 43 From: Perth, WA
| Posted: 2012-10-09 17:15  
with all weaknesses and tactics used to expose these and use it against them i personally disagree this is in anyway abuse of a weakness with all effective strategical attacks there is an always a counter measure for one tell your team mates not to FF you secondly as u have 12 cargo slots carry troops this will rid u of any dread especially a siphon which i often see implementing this tactic due to its close quarters combat efficiency thus meaning a smaller area to hold cargo due to a different set up and hull therefor i would imagine dropping half your capacity would be enough to motivate the attacking dread above u to move along and give your team mates a chance to fire assuming there not behind the 8 ball and attacking your armor in which case take it upon yourself to educate them...AND! after reading the above ICC post in regards to using your station as a defensive ship to block incoming attacks is another something u would lose as well in the event things are changed to allow attacking of a ship above a station without FFing your own STAT just consider this.
this is like saying its abuse to attack Assault dreads from the rear in a parasite assuming your a good pilot and your velocity is matched to your victim's whom is moving and generally putting them in a position where they cannot return fire and jump to get a chance for a broadside/frontal attack i would also consider comparing this to using cloak to drop on your enemies vessels to achieve a capture the other factions dont have this tech but have equal counterparts and for those whom wish to complain about mechanics and general faction balancing take 5 have a kit kat and look at proposed DEV LOG! for patch entailing a rebalance for all the factions
in regards to the opinion of a previous poster in which you suggest removing cloak all together...as original kluth where weak and little power so cloak was there to balance this out...but this is where your wrong the cloak is the foundation of this faction and the and the everything else is built around this to make the game have a balanced gameplay on all factions if u remove cloak u remove the kluth and if u do this u lose your kluth players most likely as we are a different sort to most of the humans we play the kluth as its a hit and run (thief comparative to a MMORPG) based gameplay and those who play this do so because it suits them and if u took this away your would have to consider rebalancing more meaning MORE kluth damage aswell as more power and defence to hold up chances are if u made the kluth have no cloak your would essentially recreate the UGTO with different Models and this game doesnt nneed two similar factions as it has a hard enough time populating 3 very different factions i could go on so much more but ill bore u basically u take cloak u lose ure alien nemises...and possibly kick this game into its last chapter which i wouldnt like to see..
sorry cbf with spellchecker towards end do ure best to make out my incoherent dribble. Thankyou for taking time to read xD [ This Message was edited by: Hyperforce on 2012-10-09 17:45 ]
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Rykros1987 Fleet Admiral
Joined: October 01, 2012 Posts: 88 From: Not in an asylum. Yet.
| Posted: 2012-10-09 17:29  
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On 2012-10-08 11:38, Fatal Incinarator |SoT| wrote:
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On 2012-10-08 10:48, rykros1987 wrote:
This issue goes even further then just stat sitting.
I found out earlier that there was a way to hide things like supply ships under a stats outer part of their dome.
Now from what I observed nothing could hit me while I was in the stat short of a ship explosion. 2 Kluth parasites tried to beam me focus fire wise while approaching pokeyourwaffle. They didnt even dent my side armor at all and i'm a heavy supply ship. They did hurt waffle though which suggests that the beams get absorbed.
This means that not even beams can hit you if you hide inside a stat in a defensive position against say a kluth assault.
Can you imagine people taking 1 stat/3 suppliers per stat and piling up on the enhanced repair rates? How rediculous would that be? I don't know for sure on exactly what the repair rate would be but it sounds like it would be rediculous. Coupling that with the concept of hiding in the stat for invulnerability is insane.
Also what if bigger ships like carriers or dreads can fit under there? I don't know as I don't have the badges to try but it makes it clearly evident that if even some ships can be immune to incoming fire while camping a station then its a problem.
[ This Message was edited by: rykros1987 on 2012-10-09 17:32 ]
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Just like sitting on top of stations offensively, this too has held true for a long time.
It is generally held as not only rediculous, but also impolite, for a friendly dread to camp on top of a station and use it as a shield, because that station now cannot fire upon the same target as the dread is, because it'll just do friendly fire damage. Furthermore, unless you are right on the edge of the station you cannot use anything but beams because projectiles will collide with the station, causing friendly fire damage.... in this position you can also be shot at with anything, so it gives you no benefit.
Typically, this is indeed used to shield combat supply ships from cover, and as far as I know, no one minds this usage. Supply ships have such a limited role and are so easy to kill that it isn't a big deal.
Anywho, the solution to the problem of killing the supply ship is easy: if you get on top of the station as well, your beams should be able to kill it, if you're that desperate to kill it.
Stations are also used to hide ships running point defense for them, but this is rarely seen because most people don't fly ships just to run point defense, and when they do they usually try to get the missiles before they reach the station.
Combat engineer ships can also build supply platforms inside of a station's ring to cover the plats as well, but this doesn't happen too often. This is one of the few times I do not approve of using stations as shields.
The only other time I see stations being used like this is to provide cover for damaged ships that are repairing, and if you really want to kill those ships the previous method for killing supply ships works here as well.
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Sure except for one fact. I wasn't on *top* of the stat. I was under its dome. I was on flat ground with the 2 charging parasites. Angle had nothing to do with it. Poke's ship literally absorbed 2 barrages of beams for me while im level with the enemies height. The kluth actually tried to kill me repeatedly and the only time I finally got even scratched was when poke moved because they felt it was unfair while I was taunting the kluth. Then when he moved away I tried to catch up and got caught by a mandible barrage and died. The only reason they seemed to be able to hit was due to poke moving away so I couldn't hide *under* his outer dome anymore.
So just to make it clear I wasn't hiding on *top* of the station like other people tend to do. I was literally under the dome next to the stem of the station.
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Borgie Chief Marshal Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005 Posts: 2256 From: close by
| Posted: 2012-10-09 17:30  
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On 2012-10-09 17:15, Hyperforce wrote:
with all weaknesses and tactics used to expose these and use it against them i personally disagree this is in anyway abuse of a weakness will all effective strategical attacks there is an always a counter measure for one tell your team mates not to FF you secondly as u have 12 cargo slots harry troops this will rid u of any dread especially a siphon which i often see implementing this tactic due to its close quarters combat efficiency thus meaning a smaller area to hold cargo due to a different set up and hull therefor i would imagine dropping half your capacity would be enough to motivate the attacking dread above u to move along and give your team mates a chance to fire assuming there not behind the 8 ball and attacking ure armor in which case take it upon yourself to educate them...
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when i have camped on top of stations, they have tried to dump troops on my ship, most of the time the enemy troops die to splash damage from torps/core yours and mine
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Hyperforce Grand Admiral K'Luth Revolution
Joined: January 25, 2009 Posts: 43 From: Perth, WA
| Posted: 2012-10-09 17:50  
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On 2012-10-04 15:38, Flash. wrote:
i was like 100 gu away from Poke and he could damage me sitting on the station. This is not right and normally if he can damage me i should do the same thing to him but unfortunately I'm doing a lot of FF.
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this i was unaware of and is unconfirmed by myself thus far but assuming you speak the truth and not just a once off bug/glitch this should be corrected as this should merely hit the stations armor/shield/hull before ever making its attacks leave the perimeter of the station whilst on top of it (dead center, no overlapped def rings) however its possible that there could be splash damage of yourself/faction as well as enemy and im not sure how beams work in regards to attacking outside the def ring whilst inside i do know it will hit the enemy but wether this is 100% of its damage im not sure perhaps a dev could confirm this?
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Hyperforce Grand Admiral K'Luth Revolution
Joined: January 25, 2009 Posts: 43 From: Perth, WA
| Posted: 2012-10-09 17:52  
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when i have camped on top of stations, they have tried to dump troops on my ship, most of the time the enemy troops die to splash damage from torps/core yours and mine
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this may be true but identifying an opportunity between attacks or waiting for an energy drop to make your hit...and if your team mates splash is killing your units as i said tell them to stop FF or start learning that clicking enemy then hitting space bar till he dies is not how u do it...quite often there is an a friendly obstacle between u hey and u wouldnt believe this u might even have to set up hotkeys for certain weapons/beams/torps/missles/bombs/pulse waves...and u might even have to use them i mean have u tried only firing ure Beams IKR ure thinking wtf i have to think... yeah use your brain...those of you who have one use yours to help educate others if not teach them through demonstration...Points to [Helpers]
[ This Message was edited by: Hyperforce on 2012-10-09 18:00 ]
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PokeYourWaffle Marshal
Joined: October 10, 2010 Posts: 112
| Posted: 2012-10-10 06:15  
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On 2012-10-09 17:52, Hyperforce wrote:
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when i have camped on top of stations, they have tried to dump troops on my ship, most of the time the enemy troops die to splash damage from torps/core yours and mine
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this may be true but identifying an opportunity between attacks or waiting for an energy drop to make your hit...and if your team mates splash is killing your units as i said tell them to stop FF or start learning that clicking enemy then hitting space bar till he dies is not how u do it...quite often there is an a friendly obstacle between u hey and u wouldnt believe this u might even have to set up hotkeys for certain weapons/beams/torps/missles/bombs/pulse waves...and u might even have to use them i mean have u tried only firing ure Beams IKR ure thinking wtf i have to think... yeah use your brain...those of you who have one use yours to help educate others if not teach them through demonstration...Points to [Helpers]
[ This Message was edited by: PokeYourWaffle[Helper] on 2012-10-10 06:17 ]
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Every time I end up with an enemy on top of me, I tell everyone to use beams only. I drop infantry and even while waiting for the guy on top of me to use all his lasers about a quarter of my inf get killed on the way to him, and about half of my remaining inf goes into his ship. He still manages to stay there a very long time, even when we are all using beams and I am dropping inf. If you look over the past 6 pages you will see we have been over this before.
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Zero28 Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006 Posts: 591
| Posted: 2012-10-10 07:36  
Beams still only will FF you despite the illusion of them hitting the ship trough you
_________________ 19:33:51 [ZION]GothThug {C?}: "Zero..you are DS's hero"
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