On 2010-05-31 07:37, Leopard wrote:

Spartan, Kluth-ICC Balance is hardly what you think it is. The problem is that electronic countermeasures do not stop a fleet of Krills/Siphons from just getting close, decloaking, and directly taking on the ICC whom usually fare poorly in a close-range slugfest.

I just participated in a battle yesterday where the Kluth wiped out an entire ICC Fleet around Ghext (which actually outnumbered the Kluth, but we had a lot of our pilots in cruisers and dessies while the Kluth were exclusively dreads), and this is with the planet having nearly two dozen weapon platforms and about 3-4 sensor platforms. The only time a Kluth ship recloaked during the whole encounter was to shake off missiles/fighters (missiles/fighters travel so slowly that even an 8 second cloak would easily do that job).

The only time Kluth started taking losses was after the UGTO jumped in with their armada and hit the Kluth in the back.
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-05-31 07:43 ]

On 2010-05-31 09:39, Sixkiller wrote:

I believe that in this occasion, a single scout with eccm equipped might very well have turned the outcome of the battle. By actively pinging with his eccm, you could prevent them from getting close, because the platforms and the fleet will then be able to lay fire on the kluth.

On 2010-05-31 09:52, Azreal wrote:

Quote:

On 2010-05-31 09:39, Sixkiller wrote: I believe that in this occasion, a single scout with eccm equipped might very well have turned the outcome of the battle. By actively pinging with his eccm, you could prevent them from getting close, because the platforms and the fleet will then be able to lay fire on the kluth.

100% accurate statement there.

And ICC has the best scout pinger in the game.

On 2010-05-31 09:39, Sixkiller wrote:
I believe that in this occasion, a single scout with eccm equipped might very well have turned the outcome of the battle. By actively pinging with his eccm, you could prevent them from getting close, because the platforms and the fleet will then be able to lay fire on the kluth.

On 2010-05-31 05:43, Azreal wrote:
actually, the balance at the moment is horrid.

Proven last night.

When Kluth outnumbers the enemy even a little, they will break out the dreads - the ships that a hit and run faction arent supposed to be in primarily. That is when we can sit at even an enemy planet and alpha like there's no tomorrow.

When the UGTO or ICC outnumber the Kluth, the only answer a Kluth has is small ships to avoid the eccm pings and the beacons and the dictor. Those small ships that I'm saying are really really pathetic.

And again, nobody is talking about a Claw with 10 tops and 15 rupters.

If the weapons were unleveled for Luth, then I would expect to see Claws with around 6 - 8 beams and maybe around 4 - 6 torps.

And currently, ELF still seems to drain more on recharge than it leeches from the enemy. I thought that was fixed? But that's a side issue, I guess.

On 2010-05-31 10:12, Leopard wrote:

You did not read my post. The Kluth were uncloaked most of the time. They were actively running, gunning, and staying and actually beating the ICC. It was not hit and run, it was hit, hit, and keep hitting. The ICC can ping to their hearts content in that situation but it will do nothing to stop the Kluth.

UGTO do not have this problem because they will beat Kluth in a close-range fight. So in UGTO vs Kluth, it is UGTO being the Hunter and Kluth being the Hunted. However, ICC are much weaker at close-range fights than UGTO (which is why ICC often resorts to missile spam), however, ICC cannot missile spam the Kluth, which just leaves ICC their inferior close-range fighting capabilities.
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-05-31 10:21 ]

If you're talking abt yesterday, we basically outnumbered you more than 2 to 1. You didn't stand a chance in hell.

Reverse the situation, and Kluths would be in the same shoes. We wouldn't stand a chance in hell, except to fall back.

On 2010-05-31 05:06, Lonectzn wrote:
Actually core weapons currently have the top spot, by far. They're the new torps, leaving ships without them at a significant disadvantage.

Azreal, the K'luth destroyers and cruisers do have sufficient damage (on paper) for their roles, there's just a couple problems holding them back. For the destroyers, they are lacking some energy and manoeuvrability. One aux power gen and some slight tweaking (turn rate and acceleration) should do the trick there. Both the cruisers and destroyers suffer heavily from the disappointing performance of torpedoes, and the crushing effectiveness of core weapons. Torps could use an increase in speed and reduction in power use while core weapons a drastic reduction in speed.

Most small K'luth ships need to be within 200gu to deal any significant damage. They don't have ships like the heavy cruiser/bc which can sit out and effectively shoot sideways/backwards. Improving the torpedoes, manoeuverability, and reducing the amount of accurate damage dreads can dish (seriously wtf core weapons) would help make them more playable.

I'm pretty fine with the current state of ECCM, given the lack of alternatives. There's still no reward for people using small beacon fitted ships. It obviously doesn't work to force someone in a no or low pres ship just so the side can fight luth. Unless you're me and enjoy doing it
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2010-05-31 05:32 ]

On 2010-05-31 16:23, MrSparkle wrote:

It also fits in with the ever popular WWII analogies: If torpedoes were more devastating and smaller ships like destroyers and cruisers were the main ships to use them, we'd have roles for those ships! And since torpedoes are short-medium range weapons, in order for smaller ships to do their damage they'd have to get in close to those dreads with their massive and accurate cannons.

Let's face it: destroyer cannons suck, cruiser cannons suck a little less, and torpedoes just plain suck.

On 2010-05-31 14:15, Starcommand of ICC *XO* wrote:
This is the reason I suggested removing them completely and adding in something easier to balance, a pure cloak only faction vs 2 factions that have no creditable anti cloak device, is something impossible to balance. If the ECCM ping was fixed, then cloak would become OP again as there would be NO way to find a luth once it went under. Something like a anti cloak platform or ship (like the dico but with an anti cloak instead of a interdictor), would be a good replacement for ECCM ping. All of those ideas are good, but as soon as someone suggests something that completely decloaks Kluth, they are yelled and screamed at.

If no good ideas exist to balance the cloak, the remove it completely and replace it with a different faction all together. Humans fighting a civil war, thats normal for any game. A faction that has supreme dominance by completely hiding themselves, is not good for balance. This has been said, time and time again, and it will be said (and has been) again.

Kluth look good on paper, and the story is good, but they don't work game wise. If ICC and UGTO merged into one faction, that would be fine but again it wouldn't work game mechanically. Its like putting a puzzle piece in the wrong place, ICC and UGTO mesh together nicely but Kluth is this other piece that has been cut down to "fit" into the puzzle.