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Dreadspace (yes, that dead horse) |
Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
|  Posted: 2013-04-14 19:05
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You do realize that interdictor cruisers were removed from the game, right?
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I am aware yes, however planetary interdictor fields still work fine. If you, with a long rage ship, keep the planet interdictor field between you and the opposing fleet or if they're taking a planet of yours and it has a interdictor it can be really easy to 'kite' them. Apart from k'luth who just recloak.
I do suppose it is a bit of a silly subject to come up with at this time when the new changes are due Soon(tm) but the points raised, as much as they are raised a lot, are quite relevant to current and future play.. With that also you have to consider the brief subject I mentioned with fleets. The ebb and flow of this game with different races being dominant at any one time can be directly linked to a fleet with the majority of one race's population changing race. That is why there is never a real balance, unlike in scenario.
[ This Message was edited by: Okkam's Razor (Silenthunter13) on 2013-04-14 19:07 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2013-04-14 19:43
...and you realize that being confined to planetary interdictor means that you will never be able to go on the attack. Nobody ever won a war by doing nothing but defense.
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2013-04-14 20:19
I was providing an answer because of my love to have a constructive argument, but at this point I just want to end it. Stop arguing about interdictors and my brief attempt at explaining counters.
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When the universe collapses and dies there will be 3 survivors; Tyr Anasazi, the cockroaches and Dylan Hunt trying to save the cockroaches...
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2013-04-14 21:33
Granted the Planet interdictor is probably the onyl thign that can kee the range so a Long range ship can do is jobs, but it also comes with its greatess enemy, the planet itself, wich any (in)sane minded enemy will use to Cover itself from the incoming projectiles
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2013-04-15 03:43
Two Things To Note:
First:
True balance cannot be obtained if the playerbase is very small. What I mean by this is that support ships and ships that need support will never truly be used more than solo capable ships in a small playerbase environment. If you have 6 ships, dedicating even two to longer range firepower or support usually means you lose an outright close range fight. Chucking fighters in a 6 vs 6 without planetary/platform support usually doesn't accompish anything unless it is a stalemate/standoff.
However, take a 30 vs 30 and suddenly a cluttered and messy frontline of 30 assault dreads doesn't sound so smart. To maximize the dps you would have to form a circle around the enemy fleet due to space and FF issues. The radius of the circle would have to be small for max dps, and 30 assault dreads proly won't be able to fit, and even if they do the enemy isn't going to let you position those 30 dreads. (the only slightly feasible strategy would be Kluth forming the circle and then using cloak to constantly reform the frontlines with fresh assault dreads) Here, a more mixed fleet in both roles and classes would be more effective, missiles completely avoid FF and fighters can wear down priotity targets out of reach like enemy support stations. A staggered formation with fire support from longer ranged dreads help make the frontline less clunky. Currently DarkSpace is more balanced for teamwork and larger fleets in general, and to make support ships viable in small fleet combat would mean they would probably be OP in large fleet combat.
Secondly:
The main problem of Kluth cloaking is that it is both strategic and tactical. Strategically Kluth have an almost complete immunity to suprise attacks, immunity to tracking, the ability to always get the first strike, the ability to choose the engagement range, and the most mobility. Cloak provides four of these aspects and contributes to the fifth. This would be fine, however:
Cloak is also a major tactical tool. Cloaking shifts aggro off of you because wasting blind shots while other enemies are wailing on you is generally not a good idea. Cloaking allows in combat repositioning. Cloaking can be used as a disengage tool. Cloaking can be used to wait in a reasonable distance from the enemy fleet while repairing with ahr or recharging your jumpdrive.
Kind of like the old Station Jump Drives + impossibly tanky slugger layouts making them great strategically and tactically.
Also reminds me of League of Legends characters Twitch and Eve, which both had stealth that was both strategic and tactical. They both had a skill that activated a long duration stealth that was undetectable without major, painful and most of the time easily lost cost investment. They could stealth and approach from a long distance until they were right on top of the enemy. They could also disengage/reposition with it in a fight. It was impossible to balance. So, they turned Eve into a pure strategic stealth user, as long as she isn't hit, deals damage, or uses a skill she enters stealthmode. However, getting too close to an enemy player will allow the enemy team to see her without breaking stealthmode, meaning that retreating past this sight range automatically restealths her instead of the 6 second delay when she breaks stealth through damage or usage of skills. Twitch got revamped into tactical stealth by lowering the duration of the stealth harshly but instead buffing the rest of his kit to more fully utilize a good, now harder to pull off ambush. Both characters are much more viable and easier to balance.
Eve style cloak would be similar to a forever (until you deactivate it) locked 0 signature and invisible ship. However, at a certain range, perhaps influenced by your would be signature, either a visual distortion, the model, or the targeting diamond will appear. This cuts back on the tactical usages, mainly disengage, dropping aggro, and close range repositioning. Would also be much harder to loiter while jd/ahr are recharging/at work. Of course there will be buffs in compensation, likely to combat abilities. Likely a nerf to cloak times and cooldown but lowering the energy cost.
Twitch style cloak would cap the duration of cloak or increase energy drain out of combat. Or a mix of the two, for instance increased energy drain after a time cap. In compensation, a lot of major combat buffs would be needed.
Is it necessary to make drastic changes to cloak? Not really.
Would it potentially be easier to balance? Sure will, seeing as how every aspect of Kluth and combat against Kluth including overall game balance, faction vs faction balance, and kills/deaths revolve around the current iteration of cloak.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2013-04-15 06:41
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On 2013-04-14 20:19, Okkam's Razor (Silenthunter13) wrote:
I was providing an answer because of my love to have a constructive argument, but at this point I just want to end it. Stop arguing about interdictors and my brief attempt at explaining counters.
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If you do not want to have a conversation anymore, than do not participate, but do not give an answer you know is lousy and expect nobody to call you out on it.
And really, if the only way long range ships are viable at all is with friendly planets behind them, something is very, very wrong.
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On 2013-04-15 03:43, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
However, take a 30 vs 30 and suddenly a cluttered and messy frontline of 30 assault dreads doesn't sound so smart. To maximize the dps you would have to form a circle around the enemy fleet due to space and FF issues. The radius of the circle would have to be small for max dps, and 30 assault dreads proly won't be able to fit, and even if they do the enemy isn't going to let you position those 30 dreads. (the only slightly feasible strategy would be Kluth forming the circle and then using cloak to constantly reform the frontlines with fresh assault dreads) Here, a more mixed fleet in both roles and classes would be more effective, missiles completely avoid FF and fighters can wear down priotity targets out of reach like enemy support stations. A staggered formation with fire support from longer ranged dreads help make the frontline less clunky. Currently DarkSpace is more balanced for teamwork and larger fleets in general, and to make support ships viable in small fleet combat would mean they would probably be OP in large fleet combat.
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Except that, due to the unlimited space available in Darkspace, there is effectively unlimited frontage so it is very much possible to bring 30 ships to bear against another 30 ships. On top of this, it is very much possible to friendly fire with missiles/fighters, just rather hard to do so when ship density is so low at the moment
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-04-15 13:32
I doubt this game is going to be seeing a large population any time soon.
As such, the game really needs to adapt and give the lower ranked players more substantial choices to choose from, and that means making CQC ships available before utility and LR.
I don't understand the whole entitlement thing. Yes I can finally fly Assault Dreads, but no I don't think every player should have to play for months to get there.
I think those are among the FIRST ships one should be getting, as they are the most easily effective. Other ships like cannon dreads, and command dreads take more caution to use effectively, and are thus better left to more experienced players.
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Taelon
Marshal
Joined: December 26, 2011
Posts: 255
| Posted: 2013-04-15 13:43
I think we all would enjoy a better player base, but as told to me on another game I have played "Quality over Quaintly" I think that applies here i'd rather have a group of players that are fun to be around and enjoy playing as much as I. But I also believe that a change in game more people would be nice, but I do not really believe they are needed. Anyway, maybe I should get to the topic of dreadspace, it is annoying that there are mostly dreads flying around, assimilation is a big cause of this, cause if there are dreads what do you get? A dread. We need a more diverse ship types over the same repetitive types we use now. Or we can all stat spam for fun and massive pres. Haha. I approve this second idea.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-04-15 13:45
Except most of the more experienced players use the assault ships because they know they're more effective. If you put them in at lower ranks almost nobody will bother learning how to use anything else because assault ships are all you need right now.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-04-15 13:55
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On 2013-04-15 13:45, Talien wrote:
Except most of the more experienced players use the assault ships because they know they're more effective. If you put them in at lower ranks almost nobody will bother learning how to use anything else because assault ships are all you need right now.
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Those special case ships would come into play when the situation demands it.
Otherwise, brute force normally wins battles.
I've yet to see a fleet of Combat Dreads win against an equal number of Assault dreads, not without the players in the CD's being well organized and skilled, in which case they probably would have still won if they used assault dreads as well...
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2013-04-15 14:23
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On 2013-04-15 13:55, Fluttershy wrote:
Those special case ships would come into play when the situation demands it.
Otherwise, brute force normally wins battles.
I've yet to see a fleet of Combat Dreads win against an equal number of Assault dreads, not without the players in the CD's being well organized and skilled, in which case they probably would have still won if they used assault dreads as well...
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really depends on where you are trying to fight. I got a combat dread setup for extended range sniping. Not effective in deep space, but very good for sniping plats or the lone SS or ganglia. 
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-04-15 15:04
The huge difference in power between dread and smaller class lays mainly on GADGET LEVEL. Without the gadget level, I'm afraid dread is easy to die.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-04-15 15:41
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On 2013-04-15 14:23, Brutality wrote:
really depends on where you are trying to fight. I got a combat dread setup for extended range sniping. Not effective in deep space, but very good for sniping plats or the lone SS or ganglia.
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One of the problems is that Assault Dreads can be fairly decent at long ranges too, they have 4 QST/Ion Cannnos.
They aren't fantastically powerful, but if a Combat dread is running from you, and you're pelting it with 4xQSTs, while they're firing only cannons...
I don't know, but at those ranges both can probably dodge most of what is being fired.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-04-15 15:50
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On 2013-04-15 15:41, Fluttershy wrote:
One of the problems is that Assault Dreads can be fairly decent at long ranges too, they have 4 QST/Ion Cannnos.
They aren't fantastically powerful, but if a Combat dread is running from you, and you're pelting it with 4xQSTs, while they're firing only cannons...
I don't know, but at those ranges both can probably dodge most of what is being fired.
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Indeed. But that looks like it's going to be addressed with the tier system.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-04-15 16:14
Well, what if jumping is changed so that ALL ships have a "anti-interdictor" field.
What I mean is, you will not be able to jump right on top of a player, the jump drive will remain engaged until you're, say, 500gu's away from the nearest hostile ship.
This way an AD can't just appear on top of a ship and pop it instantly, they will have to close in.
If dreads don't like not being able to attack the smaller ships, then they either need to.
1. Get a carrier with interceptors.
2. Fly something smaller.
Jumping should be a method of navigating large distances, not a necessity in combat.
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