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Forum Index » » English (General) » » Dreadspace (yes, that dead horse)

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Dreadspace (yes, that dead horse)

Novacat
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache

Posted: 2013-04-16 20:22

Quote:

On 2013-04-16 18:48, Talien wrote:
UGTO's big advantage was ablative and reflective armor giving them tailored resistances, and dual armor layers that can be quickly repaired via platforms and drones, but with shields being "UGTOfied" they've lost some of their advantage because now ICC have it too. UGTO still have the advantage of being able to repair quickly even in combat with multiple platforms and repair drones, but for ICC once shields are down they're not much good until you break combat and give them a chance to regen.

Defense was supposed to be an ICC shtick, not UGTO. UGTO were designed to have better weapons, ICC were designed to have better shields. It can be argued very strongly that UGTO weapons are not superior at the moment, however. The flux/emp weapons are especially weak, which can be blamed in the old flux era when such weapons were stacked onto ships and abused to rediculous effect.

PS: On the flipside, ICC defense isnt -massively- stronger than UGTO. Yes, Active shields are better than armor, but ICC ships are not decked out in all shields, but rather a mix of composite armor and shields, and composite armor is really terrible (its on par with Chitin, basically)...

Quote:

On 2013-04-16 20:14, Taelon*RO* wrote:
Also why is it that I die while cloaked then? It doesn't make us unkillable, k'luth is supposed to do more damage, but we die a lot faster, a alpha from most things hurts our arcs easy, a alpha from a k'luth does less to icc because shields are beam resistant, and unto yeah I think they need a new helpful thing, make a thing to ping, like a general it is within like 500 gu of this spot, that would make it more fair for ugto.

Cloak is buggy/glitchy as hell. It is also is a very bad idea to start cloaking at extremely low hull, by then it is too late and the cloak timer + lucky blindshots would be enough to finish the job. I heard rumors of an exploit allowing people to ping Kluth but I have not been able to reliably reproduce it.

Tbh, I think it would work out better for Kluth, UGTO/ICC, and the game if Cloak was substantially nerfed, and the Kluth was strengthened to the point of no longer needing cloak as a crutch.

[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-04-16 20:24 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2013-04-16 20:48

Quote:

On 2013-04-15 18:39, Fluttershy wrote:
Exactly, it would only disallow you to jump in or disengage jump drive near an enemy.
You could still jump out of a battle no problem.
You could still jump next to friendly units, assuming they are not near an enemy.

If players want to combat smaller ships, then they should be using something that is made to do so.
It would actually give some real purpose to faster escort ships, and carriers would be useful.

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-04-16 23:01 ]

Complicated solution.

You'd have to factor in distance to enemy ships. That means having code to determine if the nearby ship is friend or foe (imagine if you could not jump in within 500gus of any ship... how would that screw up fleet jumps?), and factor in collision detection of some sort. Since you're obviously NOT doing the coding, I doubt you'd have any idea how much hassle that would bring about.

A min jump distance fixes the point jump problem more succinctly, and at far less cost of coding and debugging.

- It still allows for point jump for combatants outside the battlespace, allowing for a scout and raid tactics. Point jumping is STILL a valid tactic, like it or not. We just want to make it more difficult, and needing more skill to perform it. What better way than to add in distance. Anyone can PJ within 1000 Gus. Try timing it from 3500gus, or even 10000 gus, in a rapidly moving battle.

- It prevents short point jumps for nearby ships trying to aid their ally by way of ganking an enemy ship

- It also stops ranged ships from extending distance easily to get an advantage. In the old days, this would nerf interdictors making 500 gus short jumps to trap the enemy. The min jump range distance will stop assault ships from point jumping you, but it will also stop missile/cannon ships from making short jumps out to pelt at you. You now have to plan your battles carefully.

- You can still close jump to planets. You just need to plan more.
Oh gee... Planning and thinking... something that players here espouse, but are apparently selective at. You want "more thought and tactics" in combat, but apparently QQ and cringe at the "inconvenience" at not being able to jump to a nearby planet. Double standards....

There are pluses and minuses obviously. But weighing in the cost of effort vs results, I personally think this is the better solution.

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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2013-04-16 20:56

Keeping to the topic, leaving out QQs about cloak, shields and dicos...

My observation here is that some of you are complaining that
- CQC dreads make up the bulk of fleet or player compositions
- These assault beasts have virtually no downside, other than going through their energy banks like a hot knife through butter

Perhaps the only way to make assault dreads a little less attractive and more vulnerable would be to

- Reduce their maneuverability. Reduce their turn rate and accel.
- Reduce their side and rear armor. Perhaps down to 75% or even 50%, and compensate by increasing the frontal armor to 125% or 150%.

The other types of dreads don't seem to evoke as much debate or hatred as the assault types. So really... instead of coming up with kookamamie schemes and ideas to affect the entire class as a whole (and potentially unbalance the rest which may already be good), it might make more sense to simply modify the design principles of that particular class and type of ship.

So what will doing both the above achieve? Simply make the assault class dreads into lumbering, unwieldy beasts with huge firepower up front, limited on the sides, and perhaps little or none at the rear. Ditto the armor too.

So now, smaller and more agile ships, or even slightly more nimbler combat class dreads can try to get around the assault dread and hammer it from the side or rear where it is much weaker. It would require escorts to protect it.

We don't want to make assault dreads worthless. They should remain dangerous when used in the right situation. But pretty much vulnerable when on their own, or when faced up against nimble ships designed to take it down.

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-04-16 21:01 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights

Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan

Posted: 2013-04-16 22:05

I don't even think they need to have slower turn rates, just cutting side+rear armor and adding to frontal would do the trick.

Didn't someone bring that up back in the day but it never went anywhere? Actually I think it may have been Jim, but not totally sure.
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Adapt or die.

Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2013-04-16 23:01

Quote:

On 2013-04-16 22:05, Talien wrote:
I don't even think they need to have slower turn rates, just cutting side+rear armor and adding to frontal would do the trick.

Didn't someone bring that up back in the day but it never went anywhere? Actually I think it may have been Jim, but not totally sure.

That's an idea to pass along to Walrus and Jim since they're refactoring the ships ATM.

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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy

Posted: 2013-04-16 23:40

Can't k'luth fill some other niche that isn't cloak?
How about regenerating hulls?
What about jump drives that recharge as fast as a class below them?
Maybe massive laser arrays that do max damage at the tip of its range and OHK dessies?
And maybe give them frigates with 7 torpedo launchers.
Oh and maybe missiles that don't require any ammo.

Do those sound like reasonable benefits in exchange for cloak?
OH WAIT.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral

Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005

Posted: 2013-04-17 01:39

Assault ships should be large battering rams, the vanguard of the fleet, the tip of the spear. They should bash in the enemy lines before dying or jumping out, or bash a vulnerable area of the fleet if possible. At the moment they serve as all purpose combat vessels that can provide decent fire support in addition to outstanding CQC abilities. 4 QSTs vs 2 QSTs 7 Particles isn't too disadvantageous when factoring the sheer force of the EAD's CQC in comparison to the BD's CQC in this example.

This is partly solved by making core cannons and torps different, but armor shifting can be a good step. Allows better vanguard bashing, less overall multipurpose combat ship.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2013-04-17 03:15

Quote:

On 2013-04-16 23:40, Fluttershy wrote:
Can't k'luth fill some other niche that isn't cloak?
How about regenerating hulls?
What about jump drives that recharge as fast as a class below them?
Maybe massive laser arrays that do max damage at the tip of its range and OHK dessies?
And maybe give them frigates with 7 torpedo launchers.
Oh and maybe missiles that don't require any ammo.

Do those sound like reasonable benefits in exchange for cloak?
OH WAIT.

Cloak is what differentiates them from the human faction.

UGTO - strong armor, focused on slugger weaps
ICC - Strong shielding, weaker armor, more long range weap options
Kluth - Cloak, weak armor, close range weaps

Take away the cloak and give them more armor, or add in a shield, and they'd just be a clone of one of the other factions.

So, as far as we know, cloak is here to stay.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy

Posted: 2013-04-17 08:10

Quote:

On 2013-04-17 03:15, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Cloak is what differentiates them from the human faction.

UGTO - strong armor, focused on slugger weaps
ICC - Strong shielding, weaker armor, more long range weap options
Kluth - Cloak, weak armor, close range weaps

Take away the cloak and give them more armor, or add in a shield, and they'd just be a clone of one of the other factions.

So, as far as we know, cloak is here to stay.

ICC have Shields which can be diverted as needed, and repair without support.
UGTO have thick armor that makes them a tough nut to crack and nearly invulnerable with support.
K'Luth have AHR, which repairs the hull, whereas the other two factions will never repair.

What if we just gave the K'Luth ringless ECM emitters and raised the armor a bit? That way recon ships are still worth something, and the cloak isn't all powerful.

[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2013-04-17 08:13 ]

_________________

+SuperNova+
Marshal

Joined: June 20, 2008
Posts: 30
From: Inside You

Posted: 2013-04-17 08:31

[/quote]
ICC have Shields which can be diverted as needed, and repair without support.
UGTO have thick armor that makes them a tough nut to crack and nearly invulnerable with support.
K'Luth have AHR, which repairs the hull, whereas the other two factions will never repair.

What if we just gave the K'Luth ringless ECM emitters and raised the armor a bit? That way recon ships are still worth something, and the cloak isn't all powerful.

[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2013-04-17 08:13 ]

[/quote]
If you do that then K'luth might become OP, cloak + decent armor is the perfect killer don't forget that AHR can also fix up armor.
_________________

Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2013-04-17 08:55

Quote:

On 2013-04-17 08:10, Fluttershy wrote:

ICC have Shields which can be diverted as needed, and repair without support.
UGTO have thick armor that makes them a tough nut to crack and near invulnerable with support.
K'Luth have AHR, which repairs the hull, whereas the other two factions will never repair.

What if we just gave the K'Luth ringless ECM emitters and raised the armor a bit? That way recon ships are still worth something, and the cloak isn't all powerful.

Highly unlikely. As mentioned, the cloak is a major feature of that faction. It's as much a defining characteristic like shields are to the ICC.

Besides, it has been noted by one complainant... Novacat.... that cloak doesn't make Kluth hard to beat, only hard to kill. The cloak doesn't guarantee the Kluth a decisive win. 1 on 1, a human ship will always outlast a Kluth vessel once it decloaks to fire. 2 on 2, 3 on 3, all the way up to 30 on 30. Once a Kluth decloaks, it is always inherently less durable than an equivalent human vessel and will not last that long in a firefight.

This proves one thing... that cloak hasn't made Kluth OP. It's only human players wanting to score kills against that particular faction.

Why do ppl say that Kluth is easy mode? Because simply, they can move about with relative impunity and escape. It's easy for a Kluth player to enter and leave combat. But it's not easy for a Kluth player DURING combat. There're always 2 sides to the coin.

So in the grand scheme of things, the three factions are still more or less balanced such that not a single one of those factions have a clear and total advantage over the others. I'm not talking about individual ships.

That being said, tweaks to the cloak will still be thought of and considered for future balancing/rebalancing. You may suggest stuff about tweaking the cloak. But don't expect to remove it altogether.

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-04-17 08:56 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache

Posted: 2013-04-17 09:36

Quote:

On 2013-04-17 03:15, Kenny_Naboo wrote:

Cloak is what differentiates them from the human faction.

Cloak's existance is not the problem. It is the fact Cloak is so powerful and Kluth so weak that the Kluth has to use Cloak as a crutch. This is very different from UGTO and ICC's strengths, while they are very powerful, the rest of the faction is also well-rounded that they do not need to use their strengths as a crutch like the Kluth.

That is why I believe is reducing the power of Cloak, and increasing the weak stats of Kluth accordingly. Cloak still remains useful, it still remains a Kluth thing, but the Kluth are not so dependant on it that Cloak has to be rediculously OP for the faction to compete.

Another thing is that ICC and UGTO cannot fully use their strengths either... Pulse Beams and Pulse Shields are pretty worthless when nobody uses missile ships, and EMP/Flux weapons also tend to have very little effect.

Quote:

On 2013-04-17 08:55, Kenny_Naboo wrote:

So in the grand scheme of things, the three factions are still more or less balanced such that not a single one of those factions have a clear and total advantage over the others. I'm not talking about individual ships.

Yes and no. In terms of combat, ICC, Kluth, and UGTO are balanced. Howver, when it comes to survival, Kluth have a remarkable advantage over ICC/UGTO, which is why the killboard almost consistantly shows a Kluth bias. This is also what is making Kluth attractive to players, as greater survival means less prestiege lost, which means more prestiege gained.
[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-04-17 09:45 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2013-04-17 10:12

Quote:

On 2013-04-17 09:36, Novacat wrote:
Quote:

On 2013-04-17 03:15, Kenny_Naboo wrote:

Cloak is what differentiates them from the human faction.

Cloak's existance is not the problem. It is the fact Cloak is so powerful and Kluth so weak that the Kluth has to use Cloak as a crutch. This is very different from UGTO and ICC's strengths, while they are very powerful, the rest of the faction is also well-rounded that they do not need to use their strengths as a crutch like the Kluth.

That is why I believe is reducing the power of Cloak, and increasing the weak stats of Kluth accordingly. Cloak still remains useful, it still remains a Kluth thing, but the Kluth are not so dependant on it that Cloak has to be rediculously OP for the faction to compete.

Another thing is that ICC and UGTO cannot fully use their strengths either... Pulse Beams and Pulse Shields are pretty worthless when nobody uses missile ships, and EMP/Flux weapons also tend to have very little effect.

Quote:

On 2013-04-17 08:55, Kenny_Naboo wrote:

So in the grand scheme of things, the three factions are still more or less balanced such that not a single one of those factions have a clear and total advantage over the others. I'm not talking about individual ships.

Yes and no. In terms of combat, ICC, Kluth, and UGTO are balanced. Howver, when it comes to survival, Kluth have a remarkable advantage over ICC/UGTO, which is why the killboard almost consistantly shows a Kluth bias. This is also what is making Kluth attractive to players, as greater survival means less prestiege lost, which means more prestiege gained.
[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-04-17 09:45 ]

What would you suggest then?

Let's say you take something away from the cloak, and gave something back elsewhere. What do you have in mind?

I may have something thought up, but that's for internal discussion. I just wanna see if we're on the same page.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187

Posted: 2013-04-17 13:16

Quote:

On 2013-04-17 10:12, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
What would you suggest then?

Let's say you take something away from the cloak, and gave something back elsewhere. What do you have in mind?

K"luth is the new MI: extraordinary engine, extraordinary weapon, extraordinary armor, extraordinary ability without cloak neither death beam.

Or K'Luth is the new Pirate: a mix of best technology from both human and MI.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache

Posted: 2013-04-17 13:51

The primary issue of cloak is its absolute nature. Without a reliable counter, it allows the Kluth to easily get into, and out of, fights with comparatively little risk. So the primary way of reducing cloak will be reducing the absolute nature of it. There are multiple ways of doing this, and mine will be but a single example.

As Kluth are an ambush faction, we must take a look at the strategy of ambushing. The Ambush is most successful when used against an opponent whom rushes and is unprepared, while the Ambush is least successful when used against a prepared opponent. However, presently there is no way to prepare for Cloak. Cloak lets Kluth pretty much stroll up to you, spring their ambush, and you cannot really do anything about it except damage control.

Thus, methods of preparation are necessary.

First of all, the point-jump issue needs to be completely resolved. IMHO, a minimum jump distance will not fix the problem because a lot of point-jumps start at beyond 3500 gu. On top of this, a 3500 gu minimum distance prevents long range ships from increasing the distance, forcing them to disengage from a bad situation. This is very bad if the long range ships were necessary for your faction.

This is why I proposed interdictor platforms. They are far more vulnerable than the old interdictor cruisers whom had lots of health, armor, mobility, a jumpdrive, cloak, and PD. An interdictor platform with none of these things will be far more vulnerable.

If that is not enough, an interesting alternative might be an interdictor device that has friendly fire. Basically, it not only stops enemy jumps up to 1000 gu, but also stops friendly jumps. This makes the jump device a double-edged sword, and thus a lot of thought would need to be taken into their deployment. Of course, if this route were pursued, friendly interdictor platforms would need an option to turn them off, thus giving the friendly side some form of control, but note that turning off a dictor also allows enemies to jump in and out as well.

A third alternative would be for interdictors to only disable targeted jumps, giving emergency jumps a special 'uninterruptable' status. This would still allow friendly ships to escape an enemy dictor, while still serving the original purpose of the interdictor.

Now, Why is the interdictor necessary?

To allow for combat to initiate at greater ranges. In order for long range ships to be viable, combat has to initiate at such a range in that they can do damage before the close quarters ships are able to close the distance. This also gives a role to escort ships and allows them to shoot down incoming missiles and fighters.

What does this have to do with Cloak?

The first change done to Cloak would be to make it work only if the Kluth player is 'out of combat' as determined by the out of combat mechanics. I was originally going to go with a 'Interrupt on receiving damage' mechanic, but I figure it would be easier to program if the mechanics were hitched on something that has already been implimented in game. This ensures that the Kluth can still use cloak to sneak up and ambush someone, but if they get suprised in turn, they could end up in a very bad spot.

The second change would be to make cloak immune to all ECCM/ECM, make energy consumption flat and no longer based on signature. This does two things, for one, it removes the buggy, glitchy Signature/Cloak interaction mechanics that are inconsistant and fustrating for both sides. The second thing is that it buffs ECM/ECCM, and opens the electronic warfare game more than just 'Load up on ECCM and light those Kluth... hopefully?'

The ideal metagame is that the Kluth would have to cloak some distance away, and then traverse to their target for the ideal ambush. But their target can respond to this. Ideally, I would like Minelaying ships to be a huge part of this, laying mines along potential Kluth routes. This also buffs up the Kluth smaller ships compared to bigger ships, as smaller Kluth ships are more able to slip past minefields than bigger ones.

Of course, for this to work, Minelaying ships would need to be buffed. My suggestion would be to substantially increase the radius (but not damage) of the mines. On top of this, the mines would also be proximity detonated, and work against cloaked ships. The range of proximity detonation would have to be large enough to be useful, but small enough to allow them to be swept by minesweepers. So maybe 25-50 GU?

Mining strategies against UGTO/ICC would involve clustering the mines for maximum damage, while mining strategies against Kluth would involve spreading the mines out for maximum coverage (since damage is not what is important, simply interrupting cloak is good enough)

I feel that Cloak itself would need no more changes beyond this. However, it would substantially weaken Cloak, thus requring Kluth to be more wellrounded to compensate.

Given, my knowlege on Kluth weaknesses is rusty. I have always understood it to be a multitude of things.

Lack of Missile Defense - Without Cloak, Kluth have no missile defense so to speak. Disruptors make terrible missile interceptors. Luckily, the developers are already a step ahead of me by introducing Point Defense weapons to the Kluth. So I will not address this any further.

Lack of Ship Variety - With Kluth potentially forced to engage at greater ranges, Kluth would need ships to engage at those ranges. However, Kluth have only two (IIRC) missile ships at present moment, and no true carriers. Hopefully the new tier system rewards Kluth with some much needed variety.

Lack of Armor - This is not as bad as it once was, but still is an issue. Being a damage-focused faction, Kluth should probably still have the weakest armor, but the gap should not be huge. Organic should be around where Chitin is now, and Chitin should probably be buffed to around UGTO Standard armor. Given, I do not have the exact values in front of me (Jack's site is down, fyi) but Kluth armor should be stronger than now, but not as strong as UGTO or ICC.

Lack of Energy - Again, with Jack's database down I cannot exactly check why Kluth are running out of energy so fast, but obviously their energy needs would need to be improved. Since they lack armor, they will need damage output to compensate.

We need to be careful and not buff up the Kluth too much. Even with the above changes, Cloak would still be extremely potent as a first strike tool and far more potent as a device than Pulse Wave or Flux. However, with the above changes, Kluth would actually have to plan both infiltrating to their target, and exfiltrating out after they launch their strike. Long Range ships would be buffed immensely as ICC/UGTO would be able to intercept Kluth ships trying to get into range, and Kluth would have long range ships of their own to fight against ICC/UGTO long range ships.
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