On 2013-04-17 14:21, -xTc-.xisT *XO* wrote:
....buff kluth? What? Kluth needs buffing now?

All this talk of 'nerf cloak' because it is easy for us to survive/escape with it?
Changing kluth to not rely on cloak as a mechanic is like taking away shield rotation and manuverability away from icc.

Hell while we are at it, lets just make all 3 factions have the same layouts, same ships, same armor/weapon stats and give every ship cloak, missiles and shields, because who cares about faction uniqueness, who cares about tactics or advantages/disadvantages, everyone should be fair and equal at every aspect, you should be able to kill me just as easy as I can kill you, right?

On 2013-04-17 18:39, Taelon*RO* wrote:
Fine since some might consider this unreasonable, how about making it so cloak can not be used in like 5 second from ending a jump?

[ This Message was edited by: Taelon*RO* on 2013-04-17 18:49 ]

On 2013-04-17 18:39, Taelon*RO* wrote:

Fine since some might consider this unreasonable, how about making it so cloak can not be used in like 5 second from ending a jump?

On 2013-04-17 13:51, Novacat wrote:

First of all, the point-jump issue needs to be completely resolved. IMHO, a minimum jump distance will not fix the problem because a lot of point-jumps start at beyond 3500 gu. On top of this, a 3500 gu minimum distance prevents long range ships from increasing the distance, forcing them to disengage from a bad situation. This is very bad if the long range ships were necessary for your faction.

On 2013-04-17 13:51, Novacat wrote:

This is why I proposed interdictor platforms. They are far more vulnerable than the old interdictor cruisers whom had lots of health, armor, mobility, a jumpdrive, cloak, and PD. An interdictor platform with none of these things will be far more vulnerable.

If that is not enough, an interesting alternative might be an interdictor device that has friendly fire. Basically, it not only stops enemy jumps up to 1000 gu, but also stops friendly jumps. This makes the jump device a double-edged sword, and thus a lot of thought would need to be taken into their deployment. Of course, if this route were pursued, friendly interdictor platforms would need an option to turn them off, thus giving the friendly side some form of control, but note that turning off a dictor also allows enemies to jump in and out as well.

A third alternative would be for interdictors to only disable targeted jumps, giving emergency jumps a special 'uninterruptable' status. This would still allow friendly ships to escape an enemy dictor, while still serving the original purpose of the interdictor.

Now, Why is the interdictor necessary?

To allow for combat to initiate at greater ranges. In order for long range ships to be viable, combat has to initiate at such a range in that they can do damage before the close quarters ships are able to close the distance. This also gives a role to escort ships and allows them to shoot down incoming missiles and fighters.

On 2013-04-17 13:51, Novacat wrote:
What does this have to do with Cloak?

The first change done to Cloak would be to make it work only if the Kluth player is 'out of combat' as determined by the out of combat mechanics. I was originally going to go with a 'Interrupt on receiving damage' mechanic, but I figure it would be easier to program if the mechanics were hitched on something that has already been implimented in game. This ensures that the Kluth can still use cloak to sneak up and ambush someone, but if they get suprised in turn, they could end up in a very bad spot.

On 2013-04-17 13:51, Novacat wrote:

The second change would be to make cloak immune to all ECCM/ECM, make energy consumption flat and no longer based on signature. This does two things, for one, it removes the buggy, glitchy Signature/Cloak interaction mechanics that are inconsistant and fustrating for both sides. The second thing is that it buffs ECM/ECCM, and opens the electronic warfare game more than just 'Load up on ECCM and light those Kluth... hopefully?'

The ideal metagame is that the Kluth would have to cloak some distance away, and then traverse to their target for the ideal ambush. But their target can respond to this. Ideally, I would like Minelaying ships to be a huge part of this, laying mines along potential Kluth routes. This also buffs up the Kluth smaller ships compared to bigger ships, as smaller Kluth ships are more able to slip past minefields than bigger ones.

Of course, for this to work, Minelaying ships would need to be buffed. My suggestion would be to substantially increase the radius (but not damage) of the mines. On top of this, the mines would also be proximity detonated, and work against cloaked ships. The range of proximity detonation would have to be large enough to be useful, but small enough to allow them to be swept by minesweepers. So maybe 25-50 GU?

Mining strategies against UGTO/ICC would involve clustering the mines for maximum damage, while mining strategies against Kluth would involve spreading the mines out for maximum coverage (since damage is not what is important, simply interrupting cloak is good enough)

I feel that Cloak itself would need no more changes beyond this. However, it would substantially weaken Cloak, thus requring Kluth to be more wellrounded to compensate.

On 2013-04-17 13:51, Novacat wrote:

Given, my knowlege on Kluth weaknesses is rusty. I have always understood it to be a multitude of things.

Lack of Missile Defense - Without Cloak, Kluth have no missile defense so to speak. Disruptors make terrible missile interceptors. Luckily, the developers are already a step ahead of me by introducing Point Defense weapons to the Kluth. So I will not address this any further.

Lack of Ship Variety - With Kluth potentially forced to engage at greater ranges, Kluth would need ships to engage at those ranges. However, Kluth have only two (IIRC) missile ships at present moment, and no true carriers. Hopefully the new tier system rewards Kluth with some much needed variety.

Lack of Armor - This is not as bad as it once was, but still is an issue. Being a damage-focused faction, Kluth should probably still have the weakest armor, but the gap should not be huge. Organic should be around where Chitin is now, and Chitin should probably be buffed to around UGTO Standard armor. Given, I do not have the exact values in front of me (Jack's site is down, fyi) but Kluth armor should be stronger than now, but not as strong as UGTO or ICC.

Lack of Energy - Again, with Jack's database down I cannot exactly check why Kluth are running out of energy so fast, but obviously their energy needs would need to be improved. Since they lack armor, they will need damage output to compensate.

We need to be careful and not buff up the Kluth too much. Even with the above changes, Cloak would still be extremely potent as a first strike tool and far more potent as a device than Pulse Wave or Flux. However, with the above changes, Kluth would actually have to plan both infiltrating to their target, and exfiltrating out after they launch their strike. Long Range ships would be buffed immensely as ICC/UGTO would be able to intercept Kluth ships trying to get into range, and Kluth would have long range ships of their own to fight against ICC/UGTO long range ships.

On 2013-04-17 20:47, Taelon*RO* wrote:
Not when they are jumped by a few dreads, and practice blind fire cause you get the 5 secs plus the one or two blind fire you could get

On 2013-04-17 22:08, Diabo|ik wrote:
Want empirical proof that Kluth isnt OP now?

On 2013-04-18 04:48, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Geddit?

Already said it. I like the interdictor cruiser. I want them back, but that's just a personal liking. Ultimately, most of the playerbase hate them. And as a result, they were removed.

Personally, this would nerf cloak to the point of unusability. It would be pretty much the same as having ECCM in droves making cloak ineffective.

Anyone could simply disable a cloak with a wild shot. Hits a cloaked ship and poof... 30 secs of no-cloak.

I've proposed something else before.

Faustus has stated somewhere before that he would like to keep the EW triad of ECCM-ECM-Cloak relationships intact. Cloak will always be affected by ECM/ECCM in some way.

Kluth will always remain immune to missiles as long as the pilot is alert, and has enough time to get his sig down and his ship out of the way. Cloak was always meant to do that. There's no other way to make it otherwise without kookamamie logic.

To give the Kluth a ship like the ICC Missile Dread with cloaking ability would be pretty nasty for the enemy. That's why cloak and close range weaps were paired. If Kluth can get close in to hit you hard, then you can hit him back hard too.