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Gerlach Marshal
Joined: May 07, 2010 Posts: 78
| Posted: 2011-07-26 07:10  
I was about to write a longer rant here, but Azure and Defiance's posts have changed my mind.
When I wrote my predictions about sub-dread ships and my statement on ICC cruisers about a month ago it was deletet because "it wasn't based on proper tests". In short I wrote about how said ships will have trouble surviving new damage outputs and pointed at the new ICC cruiser layouts, which are very well done. Now after a few days of testing in live MV and deriving from Defiance's post, I guess I was right.
But there are other issues that bother me:
- One of the ideas of the patch was to reduce the use of dreadnaughts, stations and missile spam. We still have that at the same scale.
- K'Luth don't have any ships worth using other than dreads, they even lost Scale as an option.
And in the continuation of the most recent change:
- I don't think reducing already low damage value of ICC main guns can solve anything. Rescaling PCannon damage fall off is better from my POV.
- More armor and less shields on ICC ships is a nonsense defeating their original design. It will reduce agility and ICC ability to survive a K'Luth attack.
- And for 101th time, range advantage excuse is irrelevant because large ships can't keep it in real combat and it's not possible to hit a ship smaller than dread above a certain range. Also note the limited ammo supply.
[ This Message was edited by: Gerlach on 2011-07-26 09:42 ]
_________________ ICC in a nutshell
UGTO in a nutshell
\"I'M HEAVY METAL \\m/>_<\\m/ !!\"
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Pantheon Marshal Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001 Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-07-26 07:14  
You talk about knee jerk reactions, I was playing yesterday for 4 hours whilst UGTO were trying a Destroyers only, Cruisers only, Dreads only, Destroyers and Cruisers, Cruisers and Dreads, Dreads and Destroyers, a mix of all... Nothing worked, and afted looking at the stats from the server, 4 UGTO died for every 1 ICC, and we had the numbers advantage.
This was nothing to do with skill or tactics, there were times when two UGTO jumped a Strike Cruiser, and the SC killed both. There are many balancing issues that will only ever be brought to light when we push release, and this is one of them.
We will be monitoring and toning down/up factions as we deem necessairy to make the game enjoyable for everyone. Right now, it isn't, and we're addressing that. People from the community crying foul without removing their bias and testing what has been changed will likely be ignored, as I've read several comments that no facts back-up, and cannot be true in any way, shape, or form.
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Bardiche Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006 Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2011-07-26 08:41  
"This was nothing to do with skill or tactics, there were times when two UGTO jumped a Strike Cruiser, and the SC killed both."
Which UGTO ships were those, who was flying the Strike Cruiser, who were the UGTO flying those ships? I honestly can't imagine the Strike Cruiser taking out two Cruisers, so were they Destroyers or Frigates?
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*FTL*Soulless Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010 Posts: 787 From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2011-07-26 10:04  
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 08:41, Bardiche wrote:
"This was nothing to do with skill or tactics, there were times when two UGTO jumped a Strike Cruiser, and the SC killed both."
Which UGTO ships were those, who was flying the Strike Cruiser, who were the UGTO flying those ships? I honestly can't imagine the Strike Cruiser taking out two Cruisers, so were they Destroyers or Frigates?
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Don't forget Ehns
_________________ We are Back from the shadows.
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MarineKingPrime Marshal Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010 Posts: 239 From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2011-07-26 10:41  
Quote:
| - I don't think reducing already low damage value of ICC main guns can solve anything. Rescaling PCannon damage fall off is better from my POV.
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Actually, with the weapons nerf, the UGTO pcannon is BETTER than the railgun at all ranges, which shows that you need to remove the weapon nerf.
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Pantheon Marshal Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001 Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-07-26 10:43  
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 10:41, darksmaster923 (3IC) wrote:
Quote:
| - I don't think reducing already low damage value of ICC main guns can solve anything. Rescaling PCannon damage fall off is better from my POV.
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Actually, with the weapons nerf, the UGTO pcannon is BETTER than the railgun at all ranges, which shows that you need to remove the weapon nerf.
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No, it's not. Jim's math was incorrect. The Railgun is better at all ranges except under 30% of max range.
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Talien Marshal Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010 Posts: 2044 From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-07-26 11:01  
Strike Cruiser (Defiance) vs. Battle Dreadnought (Bardiche) and Torpedo Cruiser (Me), all 3 ships fully enhanced and armor/shield modded, full MV condition simulation.
Engagement started from long range, SC dead within 30 seconds of all 3 ships being in close range, BD with 70% armor left overall, TC with 95% armor left overall.
I guess the new changes worked.
_________________ Adapt or die.
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CM7 Midshipman Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009 Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-07-26 11:09  
*SC mod
left and right reactive shields
for and aft active shields
1x color trail
3x makhar ship boosters
4x adv weapon accelerators
Aft Gauss guns.
*BD mod
all ablative armor
1x unknown.. (sorry forgot)
7x adv def upgrades.
*TC mod
1x color trail
7x makhar ship boosters
ablative armor
_________________ Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
339,144
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An Fiach Admiral
Joined: November 01, 2009 Posts: 32
| Posted: 2011-07-26 11:39  
This wasn't affected at all by UGTO being outnumbered, ICC being in a defensive position with better access to supply and repair? Was it also not affected by fighters and missiles hitting ships that are in close combat with a single ship at a distance?
Seems there is a lot of variables to take into account, the above, as well as player skill, enhancements, etc. and none can be accurately reproduced unless you run a closed simulation with AI about 100 times and record the results.
In any case, using players to gauge the results of changes made is unreliable, especially when they know you are watching. Very few will really be objective, despite appearances.
_________________
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Talien Marshal Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010 Posts: 2044 From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-07-26 11:42  
Right, forgot to list layouts.
Bard used a mix of makkar and def enh with an engine trail, not 100% sure the exact mix but he had at least 2 makkar, far as I know he used all particle cannons with no emp. But yeah, I used 1x engine trail and 7x makkar.
_________________ Adapt or die.
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Kenny_Naboo Marshal Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010 Posts: 3823 From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-07-26 12:07  
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 07:14, Pantheon wrote:
You talk about knee jerk reactions, I was playing yesterday for 4 hours whilst UGTO were trying a Destroyers only, Cruisers only, Dreads only, Destroyers and Cruisers, Cruisers and Dreads, Dreads and Destroyers, a mix of all... Nothing worked, and afted looking at the stats from the server, 4 UGTO died for every 1 ICC, and we had the numbers advantage.
This was nothing to do with skill or tactics, there were times when two UGTO jumped a Strike Cruiser, and the SC killed both. There are many balancing issues that will only ever be brought to light when we push release, and this is one of them.
We will be monitoring and toning down/up factions as we deem necessairy to make the game enjoyable for everyone. Right now, it isn't, and we're addressing that. People from the community crying foul without removing their bias and testing what has been changed will likely be ignored, as I've read several comments that no facts back-up, and cannot be true in any way, shape, or form.
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You said
Quote:
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ICC weapons got a 10% reduction in damage (this is VERY minor, so don't go shouting to the high heavens about how much it'll change things).
UGTO weapons got a 10% boost in damage.
Standard Armor got a 25% hp increase.
Active Shields got a 25% hp decreased.
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My point was, you reduced ICC weaps, you could have left UGTO weaps untouched first and then make observations before boosting or adjusting the other side. Same for armor. You could have boosted it without reducing shields.
Small steps first. That's why I called it a knee jerk reaction.
_________________ ... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
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Talien Marshal Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010 Posts: 2044 From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-07-26 12:49  
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 11:39, An Fiach wrote:
This wasn't affected at all by UGTO being outnumbered, ICC being in a defensive position with better access to supply and repair? Was it also not affected by fighters and missiles hitting ships that are in close combat with a single ship at a distance?
Seems there is a lot of variables to take into account, the above, as well as player skill, enhancements, etc. and none can be accurately reproduced unless you run a closed simulation with AI about 100 times and record the results.
In any case, using players to gauge the results of changes made is unreliable, especially when they know you are watching. Very few will really be objective, despite appearances.
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It's AI testing that's unreliable, as AI suck in combat and can't do much of anything unless a player is ordering them around, otherwise half the time you'll come up to an AI that's heading somewhere else and it just flies in a straight line while you follow behind it and blow it apart. Player testing is the only option since the bulk of combat is player vs player and not player vs AI.
But I suppose if you want REALLY accurate results you'd have to get people to not use their own faction's ships when doing testing so there can't be any claims of bias.
_________________ Adapt or die.
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Xavier I. Agamemnon Grand Admiral Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 12, 2010 Posts: 357 From: Babylon5
| Posted: 2011-07-26 12:53  
i have to say when you SC wolf pack and have a bunch of HC and dassies as support it a vary scary sight.
_________________
Xavier I. Agamemnon
CD/I.C.S Spartacus
HC/I.C.S Athena
CDD/I.C.S Achilles
Leader of the Exathra Alliance Fleet.
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An Fiach Admiral
Joined: November 01, 2009 Posts: 32
| Posted: 2011-07-26 14:32  
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 12:49, Talien wrote:
It's AI testing that's unreliable, as AI suck in combat and can't do much of anything unless a player is ordering them around, otherwise half the time you'll come up to an AI that's heading somewhere else and it just flies in a straight line while you follow behind it and blow it apart. Player testing is the only option since the bulk of combat is player vs player and not player vs AI.
But I suppose if you want REALLY accurate results you'd have to get people to not use their own faction's ships when doing testing so there can't be any claims of bias.
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| Well, I meant AI vs AI but you have a point, it is so lousy as to prevent any rigorous testing with it. It is important though, as I said, to be extremely careful when using player feedback as a guide. I've seen it before in other games; Certain 'trusted' players began feeding false information to the devs in order to secure a faction advantage. I've even seen an entire faction play in a manner intended to skew the statistics in order to secure buffs or prevent nerfs for their faction.
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SpaceAdmiral Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010 Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-07-26 15:09  
Quote:
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On 2011-07-26 11:09, *XO*Defiance wrote:
*SC mod
left and right reactive shields
for and aft active shields
1x color trail
3x makhar ship boosters
4x adv weapon accelerators
Aft Gauss guns.
*BD mod
all ablative armor
1x unknown.. (sorry forgot)
7x adv def upgrades.
*TC mod
1x color trail
7x makhar ship boosters
ablative armor
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You're totally right. We should just all use ablative because ICC doesn't field any assault ships ever. I mean using ablative vs a ship with all kinetic weapons is totally simulating what happens in the MV. 1 siphon/mandi/AD and both UGTO ships will drop their armor.
Also to all complaining about ranges:
Dictor. ICC didn't have trouble keeping range when pd was broken. Why now?
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